A small theory on the Wonder Woman movie.

[oRevanchisto]

It's not that bad....honestly, it gets more hate than it deserves.

It was just poorly edited, poorly paced, and - most importantly - underwhelming. It was a movie about Batman fighting Superman; people were expecting something that would blow them out of their underpants. What they got was a solid 5/10 (8/10 for the extended cut, IMO).

No, it is THAT bad and for all the reasons you just listed. You can't have terrible editing, terrible pacing, and terrible writing and end up with a movie "not that bad." BvS is god-awful and even worse than Suicide Squad, in my opinion, which at least managed to tell a somewhat coherent story. BvS fails at every level of filmmaking, it's almost hard to even call it a film after having witnessing it the first time.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Nobody. NOBODY (except DC fanboys), is going to ever appreciate what BvS was trying to do because BvS was a terrible movie. There is no hidden depth to the movie or underrated creative genius. It's simply a bad movie, a follow up to a just as bad stand alone Superman movie.

I can and will fight you on that!

Seriously though:

I wasn't to big on Man of Steel either. I like the first two thirds and then it feltlike they just had Superman punch people a whole bunch to distract people from noticing that they couldn't figure out how to conclude his storyarc satisfyingly.

Batman v Superman is a different matter entirely and I stand by that. You can claim that you didn't care much for the subtext and that's perfectly fair but it's there and there's more to it than it would seem like at face value. The themes are clear, most of them connect well to the overall plot and it's not afraid to take some risks where it could have easily played it safe.

There's a lot in there in terms of commentary on the concept of a superhero and how it relates to our cultural zeitgeist, on justice and injustice, on the way media and those who control it shape our perception of good and evil. And you're probably thinking I'm the most pretentious douchebag in the world right now but if I didn't want to derail this thread I could elaborate on this in excruciating detail until everyone's just utterly sick of it.

 

[EscapeGoat_v1legacy]

I hope Wonder Woman is a good movie but I certainly don't see why it would be, given it's coming from the same stock as Man of Steel, which was merely dull, and Batman v Superman and Suicide Squad, both of which were utter dross. At the very least those three films have been bad enough that I've made up my mind not to see Wonder Woman in the cinema - DC have taken enough of my money and given me nothing in return.

I do like the World War I setting at least though it does smack of shades of it being a knock-off of the first Captain America film. Hopefully it gives us an equally good movie.

 

[oRevanchisto]

Nobody. NOBODY (except DC fanboys), is going to ever appreciate what BvS was trying to do because BvS was a terrible movie. There is no hidden depth to the movie or underrated creative genius. It's simply a bad movie, a follow up to a just as bad stand alone Superman movie.

I can and will fight you on that!

Seriously though:

I wasn't to big on Man of Steel either. I like the first two thirds and then it feltlike they just had Superman punch people a whole bunch to distract people from noticing that they couldn't figure out how to conclude his storyarc satisfyingly.

Batman v Superman is a different matter entirely and I stand by that. You can claim that you didn't care much for the subtext and that's perfectly fair but it's there and there's more to it than it would seem like at face value. The themes are clear, most of them connect well to the overall plot and it's not afraid to take some risks where it could have easily played it safe.

There's a lot in there in terms of commentary on the concept of a superhero and how it relates to our cultural zeitgeist, on justice and injustice, on the way media and those who control it shape our perception of good and evil. And you're probably thinking I'm the most pretentious douchebag in the world right now but if I didn't want to derail this thread I could elaborate on this in excruciating detail until everyone's just utterly sick of it.

BvS is a movie that thinks it's smart, like a first year undergrad student that just discovered Nietzsche. But, at the end of the day, it's a terrible film with no real meaning just first year philosophy major wankery. You want to talk about a set of superhero movies with clear themes and layered subtext, go watch the Nolan Batman Trilogy or the Rami Spiderman films (1 and 2, obviously).

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

[
BvS is a movie that thinks it's smart, like a first year undergrad student that just discovered Nietzsche. But, at the end of the day, it's a terrible film with no real meaning just first year philosophy major wankery. You want to talk about a set of superhero movies with clear themes and layered subtext, go watch the Nolan Batman Trilogy or the Rami Spiderman films (1 and 2, obviously).

I've seen those. I love Spiderman 1 and 2 a lot. I'm kinda inclined to say that Nolans Batman trilogy is a just a bit overrated (Especially Rises had some downright tone deaf stuff in it) but I still appreciate them a lot. Both of these series' had an interesting point of view on their characters and the world they inhabit. Spiderman embraced comic book pulp and all the corny stuff that comes with it. They were beautifully idealistic movies and in a lot of ways those were the blueprint for what Marvel Studios has been doing for a while now. And not nearly as well.

The Dark Knight movies were all about gritty realism, in my opinion to a point where it sometimes got in the way of actually exploring some of the more fantastical parts of the Batman mythos. I still prefer Burtons version (Batman Returns might be my favourite superhero movie period) but they had a great commitment to portray a Batman that could almost actually exist. Personally I prefer a bit more of an operatic feel to movies like that but I'm not holding that against it.

Batman v Superman is a lot more serious than Spiderman and a lot less grounded than the Dark Knight, in fact it's doubling down on the big, verbose operatic stuff. And some of it falls a bit flat, I admit that, but other things I was extremely impressed with. It was a pretty bold decision to make a movie that unapologetically plays Batman as a bad guy with self destructive tendencies for most of its runtime. Or use Lex Luthor to comment on the notion of nerd culture and it's relation to elitism, entitlement and xenophobia. Or actually build on the carnage of Man of Steel's finale to subtly criticize western attitudes towards immigrants after 9/11.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

No, it is THAT bad and for all the reasons you just listed. You can't have terrible editing, terrible pacing, and terrible writing and end up with a movie "not that bad."

Sure you can. The action scenes were good, the cinematography was good, the acting and casting were good, the art direction, costuming and effects were good, it was full of little fanboy shout-outs that only a comics reader would get, and it even hits a couple of moments of genuine pathos here and there that swiftly get undermined by the film's own ponderous pace.

I mean, let's look at another film that had terrible editing, terrible pacing, and terrible writing: The Dark Knight Rises. That film's plot was dumb as all fuck and the pacing was all over the place. But it wasn't a bad movie, was it?

 

[Veylon]

Combined with the she's-more-than-she-knows hints in previous trailers, I'm betting that they're some kind of power suppressing device.

Why would she still be wearing them when she leaves the island? I can understand a small child needing them or wearing them during training, but why would anyone artificially cripple themselves when they expect to go into the sort of do-or-die situations that superheroing entails?

 

[Zhukov]

Combined with the she's-more-than-she-knows hints in previous trailers, I'm betting that they're some kind of power suppressing device.

Why would she still be wearing them when she leaves the island? I can understand a small child needing them or wearing them during training, but why would anyone artificially cripple themselves when they expect to go into the sort of do-or-die situations that superheroing entails?

Oh, she doesn't know what they are.

Look at her expression after they do their explode-y thing. That's not an "Oh cool my super bracers are working great" face, it's a "Whoa, what the fuck just happened" face.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

Combined with the she's-more-than-she-knows hints in previous trailers, I'm betting that they're some kind of power suppressing device.

Why would she still be wearing them when she leaves the island? I can understand a small child needing them or wearing them during training, but why would anyone artificially cripple themselves when they expect to go into the sort of do-or-die situations that superheroing entails?

If she was undercover, or at least not supposed to make the public aware of her superpowered nature, it makes perfect sense. The way I see it that's the way they should handle it. If this is in continuity with MoS, then the entire conceit of Clark's father keeping his powers a secret because the world isn't ready to know superbeings exist falls apart if WW is wrecking shit all over Europe back in the 1910s.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I'll be happy if Wonder Woman isn't just the miserable messy pile of failure and shit all the leaks say it is.

If you have been paying attention to the trends concerning DC's movies, they like to put all the best bits in the trailers.

 

[happyninja42]

Combined with the she's-more-than-she-knows hints in previous trailers, I'm betting that they're some kind of power suppressing device.

Why would she still be wearing them when she leaves the island? I can understand a small child needing them or wearing them during training, but why would anyone artificially cripple themselves when they expect to go into the sort of do-or-die situations that superheroing entails?

You're assuming she even KNOWS they are handicappers. It's quite possible she was never told that. Magic is weird shit, and it's possible they just simply dampen her powers, and all she knows is they are bracers her mom gave her, saying they were "a gift from your father, wear them every day" etc etc.

Of course, she's still wearing them in the present day in BvS, so they likely aren't inhibitors. If they are, we aren't going to learn about them in her own movie. As if she does learn of them, then yeah, at THAT point, it makes no sense for her to keep wearing them. Except for the whole "they absorb tons of damage/energy, and that's a good tradeoff for lowering your power level below 9000" kind of logic. Which, mostly doesn't make sense, but I can totally see a comic book hero thinking it makes sense.

 

[kitsunefather]

Looks interesting, and leaks from the screenings say it's closer to Captain America (the first one) than BvS. Additionally, one of the more credible Reddit leaks suggests the framing device for the story is that it's a flashback she's having as she's replying to Bats about founding the League via e-mail.

My only question is whether they're going to shoe-horn in Batman's parents dying again or some more .gifs of the other characters from the League.

I'm going to call it here, too, that it will have an end-credits scene with Superman's grave empty.

 

[Basement Cat]

Mostly the same footage with a few extra scraps. Looks alright. Some pretty kickass shots in there. Hopefully we can get at least one decent movie out of DC before they sell the rights to Marvel or something.

There was. It was called Batman v Superman and it was better than anything that came out in the genre for the better part of a decade.

And that is totally a hill I'm willing to die on.

Escapists! Whether we concur or not we all must recognize that that's a show of courage!

In recognition for your courage I SALUTE YOU!!!

 

[Veylon]

Combined with the she's-more-than-she-knows hints in previous trailers, I'm betting that they're some kind of power suppressing device.

Why would she still be wearing them when she leaves the island? I can understand a small child needing them or wearing them during training, but why would anyone artificially cripple themselves when they expect to go into the sort of do-or-die situations that superheroing entails?

Oh, she doesn't know what they are.

Look at her expression after they do their explode-y thing. That's not an "Oh cool my super bracers are working great" face, it's a "Whoa, what the fuck just happened" face.

You're assuming she even KNOWS they are handicappers. It's quite possible she was never told that. Magic is weird shit, and it's possible they just simply dampen her powers, and all she knows is they are bracers her mom gave her, saying they were "a gift from your father, wear them every day" etc etc.

That's even worse. She could get killed for the lack of the edge she's losing by wearing the things. Inflicting that kind of penalty on a person in a life and death situation without their knowledge is little different than attempted murder, both of Wonder Woman herself and anyone she's trying to save. That's downright evil.

 

[Zhukov]

That's downright evil.

Maybe. Could be what they're going for.

Her mother is clearly trying to keep her away from violence despite her being trained for it, presumably good at it and apparently a bit eager for it. My guess is because it would (and at some point in the movie will) bring out her extra superpower possibly-the-daughter-of-a-god-of-war mojo.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

the framing device for the story is that it's a flashback she's having as she's replying to Bats about founding the League via e-mail.

Makes sense, the DCU does love their flashbacks, so why not make and entire movie a giant one.

 

[happyninja42]

That's even worse. She could get killed for the lack of the edge she's losing by wearing the things. Inflicting that kind of penalty on a person in a life and death situation without their knowledge is little different than attempted murder, both of Wonder Woman herself and anyone she's trying to save. That's downright evil.

I didn't say it was a smart idea, just one I could see happening. And besides, secretly finding out that an organization that was seen to be as a good force, turning out to have a dark past/origin, putting into question all of the good things they have done? Yeah, that's never happened in comic book circles at all.

 

[Veylon]

That's even worse. She could get killed for the lack of the edge she's losing by wearing the things. Inflicting that kind of penalty on a person in a life and death situation without their knowledge is little different than attempted murder, both of Wonder Woman herself and anyone she's trying to save. That's downright evil.

I didn't say it was a smart idea, just one I could see happening. And besides, secretly finding out that an organization that was seen to be as a good force, turning out to have a dark past/origin, putting into question all of the good things they have done? Yeah, that's never happened in comic book circles at all.

That's fair enough, I guess. But I would really despise it if they go for the Omniscient Morality License route where the audience is expected to believe it was for her own good and everything conveniently works out in a way that nobody could have realistically predicted.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Sure you can. The action scenes were good, the cinematography was good, the acting and casting were good, the art direction, costuming and effects were good, it was full of little fanboy shout-outs that only a comics reader would get, and it even hits a couple of moments of genuine pathos here and there that swiftly get undermined by the film's own ponderous pace.

The action scenes were at best, passable and at worst, horrible. They were poorly lit, poorly filmed, poorly choreographed and uninsteresting. The casting wasn't great. Henry Cavill is not a good Superman, Amy Adams is not a good Lois Lane and Jesse Eisenhower was absolutely horrible as Lex Luthor. He was so horrible to watch that I would actually rewatch Suicide Squad over watching him again.

Costuming was poor. Wonder Woman has no colour in her outfit, Batman is just grimdark and Superman was nothing to speak of. The oversized male torsos of the two male leads were bordering on fetishistic. The cinematography, I will grant was good. It seems to be Zak Snyder's only actual skill, but even that cannot be entirely credited to him. He gets iconic art from the graphic novels and source materials and recreates them on screen. I won't try to claim a lot of it didn't look good, it did, tho that is about the only nice thing one can say and it isn't enough to carry a film. BvS lacked soul and came from the same school as MoS, special FX spectacle without reason, style over substance. It was a collection of good looking shots with the worst story, dialogue and pacing trying to link them together.