A Solution To Piracy

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Knusper

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Right, this is probably really impractical, but here we go...

Why don't web-piracy sites use their massive incomes from advertising, donations and investment (I read in an article linked on a thread a few days back that Pirate Bay makes $9 million per year, that might be a little biased, but still...) to pay artists based on how many people download the torrent. That way, the masses get media for free and the artists get their money, although admittedly, it probably would be significantly less.

So... the only people making less money would be the actual owners of he websites, who I guess could be paid by national/ international (e.g. EU) governments so that they can get by for being the middle man.

It would be a nice solution to stop piracy.
 

kouriichi

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One big problem is cost. Its the same with video games and movies. They charge you $60 for something thats probably going to end up being crap. And the kicker? The only opinion you have to go on is that off someone payed to tell you its good.

If they do put a demo out, it highlights the best 60 seconds of gameplay the entire thing has to offer. And they wonder why people download!

And with movies its even worse! You pay 8-14 dollars to get in ((depending on where you live)), and then if you want to have an enjoyable time, you have to have snacks or drinks, which they extort you on because you arnt allowed to bring your own. So you eather have to spend another 10 bucks or be forced to sit there dry mouthed through one and a half to two hours of the worst acting and plot of your life! Genious!!!

Maybe if they dropped the price of such things to something affordible for an everyman, there wouldnt be half as many pirates.
 

Braedan

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A painter needs supplies to make art, just as a programmer needs supplies. The difference is in the cost.

Where a painter can make a work of art with some paint, paper brushes and time, a video game required DRASTICALLY more time to create a quality item. Thousands upon thousands of hours are required just to make the game turn into an engine, much less be playable.

A hundred fifty people is a reasonable number for a AAA title, so in one day, 1200 hours of work, one week 6000, a year? 312 000, average game dev time for a quality game? lets say 3 years, 936 000 hours.

Lets say we have artists working on a game one quarter the complexity. With lets say 6 people, because without motivation its quite hard to get people to work towards a common goal.

Sweet, we have a quality game coming out in 4.4 years if they worked 8 hours a day pretty much every day. Of course they need jobs, so they can only work 2 hours a day. So (and correct me if i suck at math) but what, every 17.8 years? uh... people ***** about duke nukem taking 12....

EDIT: So my math was terrible, and I got more like every 53.4 years.... so good news.
 

wulfy42

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gardyna said:
wulfy42 said:
There are tons of ways to stop piracy... way to long to use full quote
these are realy sensible solutions although there are some problems to some of the ideas (for instance the server thing would cost a monthly fee for the profucers) i see that the main point is that pirating should not be "worth it" i.e. takes way too much time and is too hard while still getting nowhere near good results. <.< personaly i am wiling to pay a bit extra to the developer/producer just to make sure that the guys making the game get the money to make more good games i would like to know wether anyone else agrees with me

Since often the server is just used to allow the game to start and gives very little actually information (isn't constantly being used by everyone) it wouldn't cost the developers much at all and certainly less then they are spending on current piracy prevention such as DRM etc.

Minecraft is a great example of this. To play minecraft you need to log in to the server (at least once...just to enable offline mode at all). Probably someone could come up with a crack for that as just 1 person put it together by himself (along with the entire game) but something similar could be done for big games with more security without a ton more cost.

That is just one solution though and just making it not cost effective is not the only thing that needs to be done. If people can demo games quickly without having to pirate them they will probably do that instead of downloading a 9gig plus file. If they like it and it works on their computer most of them will buy it. Make demos for games easy to get for everyone.

Have game rentals available as well. Host games on a server and part of the rental price to play the game would pay for the servers as well. If you could rent a game for a week for $5 or so....and then determine if you want to buy it from there...would anyone bother to pirate games?

There are tons of solutions that would be both profitable and make life easier for consumers. The solution is to make it not worth it to people to pirate and not make so many people angry because they have shelled out $60 for a game they never play or that doesn't even work on their computer (Although their computers system specs are well within the paramaters).

There are many ways to accomplish that goal. Crying about how piracy is bad and it is killing games is not a solution. I still have seen no evidence that good games are being seriously hurt by piracy. All the good games in the past few years seem to have made a great profit and more then likely sold more copies because of piracy (and the free publicity is created) then they lost.
 

Plurralbles

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actually, teh, "samey" sound of music is because the same artists are paying the same artist for writing their music...

Anyway, if the world was going to be reduced to a bunch of, "Minecrafts" I'd be a very pissed off individual. The game is only getting good with his newfound employees. Employees only hired because he was able to actually start making money on his work.
 

4173

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Atmos Duality said:
I'm not saying that no-budget games/films would be successful, but the MAIN goal for making the game/film should be to convey a message or focus on a style.
Why? What's so special about games and films that they need to convey messages or focus on style? What makes them so pure that we must avoid corrupting them with the stench of money? How dare companies whore out these virgins descended straight from Mt. Olympus to the filthy man-ape hordes.
 

Mr.Mattress

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gl1koz3 said:
Mr.Mattress said:
gl1koz3 said:
Worker 1 to 32 makes food and likes games. Worker 33 to 64 makes games and likes food. Exchange.

Worker 33 to 64 must share in order for the food to come and worker 1 to 32 must share in order for the games to come.

Problem solved.
That's communism, and that'll never work because you assume that:

1) Group 1 Cares about Group 2
2) Group 1 Likes what Group 2 produces
3) Group 2's stuff is good enough for exchange
4) No one in either Group has ambitions to do Both or something different

OT: As a Cartoonist, I wanna be paid for my gosh darn work. If I have to work another job just to live, then there is no point to Cartooning. Your idea doesn't work, because I'd rather be making money on something I love then doing something I love and making money elsewhere.
But didn't I say they do? I didn't assume anything. I stated that the group likes that stuff for a fact. Such groups technically can be assembled to match and help each other out.

The problem is that you assume it's random people, when I clearly stated they're not.
Well, that doesn't mean they like a certain type of Game: Maybe Group 1 only likes shooters, yet Group 2 makes a Rhythm Game. Plus, Rule 3 is still in effect, the Game could suck bad and they won't give food for it.

And when you boil down to it in real life, they are random people: 1 or 2 might wanna do the games for fun and for free, but the other 3-4 might try and find a way to make more for what they made. The point is, Communism simply cannot work because people are jerks. If I was one of those working for food or for games, you could bet I would try to find a way to make more.
 

Atmos Duality

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4173 said:
Why? What's so special about games and films that they need to convey messages or focus on style? What makes them so pure that we must avoid corrupting them with the stench of money? How dare companies whore out these virgins descended straight from Mt. Olympus to the filthy man-ape hordes.
Yes, lets ignore the examples and evidence I cited, and focus SOLELY on using baseless-hyperbole as a cop-out. How could I possibly argue against that?

Truly, your contribution to this topic was astonishing.
 

4173

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Atmos Duality said:
4173 said:
Why? What's so special about games and films that they need to convey messages or focus on style? What makes them so pure that we must avoid corrupting them with the stench of money? How dare companies whore out these virgins descended straight from Mt. Olympus to the filthy man-ape hordes.
Yes, lets ignore the examples and evidence I cited, and focus SOLELY on using baseless-hyperbole as a cop-out. How could I possibly argue against that?

Truly, your contribution to this topic was astonishing.
What are your examples that games/film SHOULD be about message/sytle? The new MoH failing I suppose. You give some examples of good XBLA games, that shows games with a message/style can be successful, but not seeing the SHOULD.

Are those XBLA games supposed to show that those sorts of games will make as much money as the status quo? I'm willing to concede they may make better games if they didn't worry about making money, but I don't see a reason they should. If MoH type failings continue to happen, then sure they should change their strategy, but that will still be about money.
 

Atmos Duality

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4173 said:
What are your examples that games/film SHOULD be about message/sytle? The new MoH failing I suppose. You give some examples of good XBLA games, that shows games with a message/style can be successful, but not seeing the SHOULD.
It shows that not monetizing every single aspect of a game by recycling the same shit over and over CAN be successful and fun.
I recall a quote from a fellow gamer "Creativity isn't a profitless enterprise, it's simply a difficult one."

What we're seeing right now is the death of creative thought because why innovate when yesterday's product will make millions in profit? There's plenty of stupid sheep out there who will buy yesteryear's game as long as you tack on some new graphics or change the weapons up a bit.

I mean, what happened to just making a game that was meant to be fun? Why does it HAVE to include these massive bloom-lighting effects, regurgitated and homogenized elements?
Why do we HAVE to include those worthless quick-time-events in every action title now?

Why, because those distract from the fact that they copped out on the gameplay!
Check out FF13, a game that actively tries to involve the player as little as possible, while looking absolutely brilliant in design.

Are those XBLA games supposed to show that those sorts of games will make as much money as the status quo? I'm willing to concede they may make better games if they didn't worry about making money, but I don't see a reason they should. If MoH type failings continue to happen, then sure they should change their strategy, but that will still be about money.
Take a look at Activision and EA's approach.
They milk the shit out of franchises, to the point where they finally stop being viable (Guitar Hero's sales have tanked in recent years, primarily due to stagnation).
These people don't give two shits about the creativity or gameplay design as long as the profits meet expectation.

Want an example of this principle in action?
Exhibit A: Hellgate London.
That game was shat out almost three years ago and almost exactly to the day today; it was a Halloween release strictly for marketing purposes.

Hellgate lasted maybe a year online and then collapsed.

Why did it fail so quickly? Because EA wanted that re-investment money NOW. They had to have that Halloween release, despite the game allegedly being on schedule but not ready for another 7 months at least.
But to EA, the game had become second-fiddle to their profits.
Nobody won out there; Flagship died out, and a cool game concept died with it.

Ok, how about a less-obtuse example.
Exhibit B: Modern Warfare 2 and the Infinity Ward debacle.

You know, that little case where THE GAME'S ENTIRE CORE DEVELOPMENT TEAM LEFT THE COMPANY, and it's very VERY strongly rumored to be because of money-royalty reasons.

I must say "rumored" because it is still officially in court, but there is no other logical explanation; the game turned record profits this time last year. What the Hell else can cause such a wild schism? These people should have been celebrating like they won the lottery!

Perhaps I should rephrase my statement to say that games shouldn't be ALL ABOUT the money, because no matter how you slice it, anything that is purely monetized tends to lose sight of what matters.

And yet, that is precisely what is happening today. These mega-games are shiny bling-shit.
They lack depth, but make up for it in convenience.
They lack interactivity, but make up for it with quick-time-events and cool kill animations.
They lack longevity, but make up for that in sequels and achievements.

Truly, I'm not trying to sound condescending or pretentious here, but I have fucking had it with these hyper-conservative, money-milking titles.
 

4173

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I can get behind that. It would be nice if companies experimented more. There are certainly open questions regarding what gamers really need and want, what will sell etc.

I just get really skeptical when I see [what I thought was] people telling other people they have "enough" money.
 

Valthek

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Aug 25, 2008
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I have only a few things to say:


Do what you want, ?cause a pirate is free,
YOU ARE A PIRATE!
Yar har, fiddle di dee,
Being a pirate is alright to be,
Do what you want ?cause the music is free,
You are a pirate!

(spoken)You are a pirate!
(crowd)Yay!

We've got us a site, (website!)
To lead us to a hidden file,
That's all locked up with locks! (with locks!)
And buried deep away!

We'll dig up the file, (the file!)
We know it's full of precious movies!
Burst open the locks!
And then we'll say hooray!

(changes to electronic euro-pop crap music)

(girl's voice)Yar, har, fiddle di dee.
If you love to download stuff,
You are a pirate!

(spoken)Weigh anchooor!

Yar har, fiddle di dee,
Being a pirate is alright with me!
Dowload what you want '?cause a pirate is free,
You are a pirate!
Arr yarr, ahoy and avast,
download-some-games-'n-dowload-'em-fast!
Hang the black flag
At the end of the mast!
You are a pirate!

Hahaha! (Yay!)
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Zakarath said:
Therumancer said:
Starnerf said:
How would these hypothetical artists live? Presumably they would require some sort of income.
The thing is that I do not think that video game developers today are hurting for money. The budgets being assigned for games are based largely on the cost of human resources, ie the amount of money these guys demand to do their jobs making the games. When dealing with budgets in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars the cost of materials (computers) and office space is fairly trivial, the meat of that money going towards human resources which means someone is taking it home. There have been a lot of debates on this subject over the years here on The Escapist (mostly involving me), but the bottom line is that I think the gaming industry is so quiet about where all this money goes because they know it would upset the consumers and it wouldn't play into their "video games cost so much to buy, because they cost so much to make" when you took a look at how that money was being spent. I know i'm already raging over comments about how Square Enix claims that it would be too expensive to make a game like "Final Fantasy VII" with current technology due to the amount of artwork needed for towns and such (which is why the latest Final Fantasy didn't really have any). In the end the cost of producing that artwork is computers, and the guys to run them. The computers are a couple grand apiece, the rest of the money? Well that's all due to what the guys banging the keyboard to make the art are demanding to be paid.
True, the majority of game funding goes to HR (In addition to expensive hardware and software suites, licensing fees for various engines and services, etc.). The studios that produce AAA games often have staffs of 60 people or many more(watch the credits on your favorite games). Assume the salaries of each of those people to be around 75k(again, or more). Now assume that your game takes about two years to produce. Also assume that you may also need to hire various outside services for music, voice acting, testing/QA, etc. Do the math.

75k is massively overpaid to begin with for code monkeys. Yes they have degrees, but so does almost everyone today. Their job doesn't involve any real danger to their person or anything of the sort. They don't work in mid-high end security jobs, police work, corrections, or even things like nursing or acting as an orderly, and most of those people make far less money.

What's more one also has to look at the budgets involved, when dealing with tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars it causes estimates like 75k or even 100k a year to fall short.

On top of this while it's uncomfortable for a lot of people who I discuss this with, look at the situation with "Infinity Ward" not too long ago and the bonuses these guys were promised. Before Kotick ran a security raid so he wouldn't have to pay them the promised monies nobody even blinked about being offered that amount of money. In fact we only know about it because of the raid.

At any rate, the exact amount of money these guys are making is kind of irrelevent to the central point of this discussion. Consider that in previous years the gaming industry managed to operate just fine without this kind of pay scale. What's more they were able to perform better work. As Square-Enix pointed out, they couldn't afford to make a game like "Final Fantasy VII" anymore, and as a game over a decade old that's disturbing since their budgets are bigger than ever. It shows a direct coorespondance to how increasing paydays for game developers, and corperate attitudes, have caused a reduction in the quality of gaming.

This is the problem with art and artists, "starving" artists simply create better work because they are more motivated. What's more they tend to be self employed and chase their own visions as opposed to what they think will sell. Once they become successful there is a decline in quality, and we're seeing it with gaming.

I suppose if your a comfortable code monkey right now who is happy about having a job where you really don't have to work, are in no danger, and can probably afford the payments to get a new Ferrari, BMW, or Corvette each year, you don't want to give that up. The same can be said for any other person in an artistic profession.

The art vs. success of the artist debate has been around nearly forever, only a very few people have ever managed to continue to produce quality stuff after their success, and a lot of those artists had a reputation for insanity.

Truthfully I think a video game crash leading to the video game market slowly crawling back with lower paid employees would benefit gamers to be honest.


-

Oh and for those still thinking about buying "Black Ops", consider me mentioning what happened with "Infinity Ward" as a reminder about who is getting the money for this game. Remember how Activision has treated both customers, and the developers that made "Call Of Duty" the major blockbuster it was today.

I doubt it will happen, but I think it would be awesome if everyone pre-ordered the game and then simply didn't pick it up on release day and switched their money over to another title. This would ensure Activision would produce a ton of copies for perceived demand, and then take a bath when they can't move it. Addicts could buy the game in a few months when the price drops through the floor due to the desperate need to move the inventory.

Sadly getting something coordinated like this is nearly impossible, but I'd still like to think some people won't be buying the game, no matter how awesome, due to the things that have been going on.

Perhaps at some point I should take the risks in visiting 4-Chan and see if I could somehow get them interested in helping to coordinate a "raid" of this sort on big activision releases. The trick is ultimatly to get them to vastly over produce the number of games compared to the people who buy them.

Ah well, a bit of rambling at the end here, but what can I say? Bobby has been such a jerk that he's on my mind whenever I talk about the video game industry.
 

gl1koz3

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Mr.Mattress said:
gl1koz3 said:
Mr.Mattress said:
gl1koz3 said:
Worker 1 to 32 makes food and likes games. Worker 33 to 64 makes games and likes food. Exchange.

Worker 33 to 64 must share in order for the food to come and worker 1 to 32 must share in order for the games to come.

Problem solved.
That's communism, and that'll never work because you assume that:

1) Group 1 Cares about Group 2
2) Group 1 Likes what Group 2 produces
3) Group 2's stuff is good enough for exchange
4) No one in either Group has ambitions to do Both or something different

OT: As a Cartoonist, I wanna be paid for my gosh darn work. If I have to work another job just to live, then there is no point to Cartooning. Your idea doesn't work, because I'd rather be making money on something I love then doing something I love and making money elsewhere.
But didn't I say they do? I didn't assume anything. I stated that the group likes that stuff for a fact. Such groups technically can be assembled to match and help each other out.

The problem is that you assume it's random people, when I clearly stated they're not.
Well, that doesn't mean they like a certain type of Game: Maybe Group 1 only likes shooters, yet Group 2 makes a Rhythm Game. Plus, Rule 3 is still in effect, the Game could suck bad and they won't give food for it.

And when you boil down to it in real life, they are random people: 1 or 2 might wanna do the games for fun and for free, but the other 3-4 might try and find a way to make more for what they made. The point is, Communism simply cannot work because people are jerks. If I was one of those working for food or for games, you could bet I would try to find a way to make more.
This goes to all who replied to my post.

You still assume it's random people.

I'm trying to say that it boils down to effective selection, not them being random people. You apply a filter. Simple enough to understand (I hope), but hard to implement. And I mean rather a deeper study of behavior and how human body works, not simple questionnaires.

An utopia, perhaps, but it's only a matter of having the right means.

To those who mention communism... right. But... I suggest dividing them by scientific evaluation and not equality enforcement. After that, there should be a group of self-sustained groups who actually don't care getting ahead of all. And the other group would be with bad tendencies, that... don't know... perhaps, could be shot or something. At this point, just the first group matters and would work at all.
 

Cuniculus

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ninjapenguin981 said:
Cuniculus said:
I don't know how this would stop piracy. Just because the people poured their heart and soul into a game in the hopes of making something truly beautiful, doesn't mean people won't still try to steal it. Pirates don't steal games because they think that game makers are corporate money mongers, they do it because they don't want to pay fifty bucks for something.
The reason is that the artist wouldn't expect money from everyone. Although it doesn't stop piracy, it just makes it morally acceptable. This is not my opinion, I'm just clarifying what I think the OP means.
No one works for free. If you can find out a way for huge companies to make great games for free, then I think someone just won a Nobel Peace Prize, because we must officially be out of problems.