A study on whether feminists are taking over video game publications
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He does a little bit of comparison. For example:Redd the Sock said:
Free To Play gets specifically in 5.61% of articles. In other words, the most important shift in video game design, monetization, and distribution strategy in the history of video games (not to mention the necessity of mentioning it in every review of a game that uses the model) gets explicitly mentioned only 13 times as often as feminism.
Call of Duty, the most important franchise in arguably the most important genre of video games, gets explicitly mentioned only about 9 times as often as feminism.
"Realism" and "Imersion", core principles of game design and also two of the most over used buzz words in the gaming industry, get explicitly mentioned only about 7 times as often as feminism.
Oh come on, I can't even say two of those (games and names)! I am talking about mainstream, AAA games. In anything less you can play as anything from an octopus to a square (Thomas was alone).s69-5 said:
I am limiting it to that 'cos that is what the vast majority are exposed to ... I spend a fuck tonne of time in games culture and news (80% of my free time is spent with some kind of gaming thing) but nearly all Japanese stuff is alien to me ... FFX is about it. Persona and disgaea are two huge brands but I don't even know what genre they are!
Come on, we both know unless sexual orientation is stated, they are straight. Even though I hate that assumption in both real life and games.s69-5 said:
Come on, fighting games hardly count ... barely a main character at all, some people are the face of the games though, such as Ryu for street fighter, Heihachi/Jin for tekken, scorpion/sub zero for MK.s69-5 said:
Lee Everett is a good example but Barret and Sazh are followers.
The point I am making is, it's easier to name a white male lead, than any other. Why oppose a more diverse character list? To me it's like going to an ice cream emporium, they have every flavor you could imagine but instead of sampling every flavor, you go in each day and buy vanilla. Is there anything wrong with vanilla? No but why are you limiting yourself?
People are a very diverse bunch and it feels like the only representation of that is white males.
I'm certainly not asking for no more white guys, just scoot over to more diversity.
Gamers reaction to this is like a toddler with it's favorite blanket ... you want to wash it 'cos it's just stale but every time you mention cleaning it, the toddler wails like a fucking banshee! "Hey, how about more women as protagonists?" ... "WAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! ... "OK, SHIT! Chill the fuck out!".
Beep. Mission jeopardized. Executing protocol blue.Colour Scientist said:Well, ifwefeminists were taking over video game publications,wefeminists wouldn't want you to know, wouldwethey?
Boy I sure like beer, boobs, cars and equality don't you guys!?
Guess I am journo then ...chadachada123 said:
I do want less less traditional male dominated action games, I want to play G.I Jane in the next COD!
I do want to see a SIGNIFICANT decrease in highly eroticized games, the primary reason I don't watch GOT is 'cos to me it's porn with a story line (people get killed off to get new "actors" in and the old ones out). I think games have WAY too much fan service in them ... playing dragon age, first meet Morrigan and she comes out looking like she took her clothes from a monk that had been shredded by darkspawn! You meet Miranda in mass effect and just about every shot of her highlights her arse, Jack gets presented with belts over her nipples and Samara has the grand canyon of all deep V cuts tops! Lara Croft goes to an ice cave, what does she wear? Short shorts! She also has red and black cocktail dresses in a couple of missions!
Do I want tit all to go away and every game now has a female lead sporting a full Burka? Of course not, I just want devs to turn these two things down from 11 to around a 6
It would be interesting to see what percentage of discussion is from op-ed pieces and how much are PR/preview/ad copy type stuff.
Realize that not all articles are equal in impact. For example, when someone complains about an obscure japanese game being sexist, no one cares. But when Carolin Petit takes a potshot at GTA 5 for being sexist in his gamespot review, that reaches a lot more people. Feminists and SJWs tend to dog-pile on more popular games for this reason, like with the fake-controversy over Assassin's Creed Unity. That may be a tiny number of articles in the grand scheme of things, but those articles were read by a huge number of people.
Then you have feminists who have an ideological axe to grind but who don't overtly push it in their professional work. MovieBob keeps his content mostly free from direct feminist support, but check out his twitter feed and it's a whole different story.
Even 1% seems like a lot. How many sports articles are there referencing Islam or Conservative politics I wonder? Why are any political articles allowed in a hobby community?
Finally lets not forget that we just witnessed the greatest attempt and mass-censorship in the history of this industry in order to protect the reputation of a woman. That proves that even that 1% of control is enough to massively influence the media.
Small numbers can be used to obfuscate greater influence than is obvious. There is an interesting article from Freakonomics which showed how an idea only needed to be accepted by 10% of a group before the rest of the group fully adopts it. I'll try to find a link.
Realize that not all articles are equal in impact. For example, when someone complains about an obscure japanese game being sexist, no one cares. But when Carolin Petit takes a potshot at GTA 5 for being sexist in his gamespot review, that reaches a lot more people. Feminists and SJWs tend to dog-pile on more popular games for this reason, like with the fake-controversy over Assassin's Creed Unity. That may be a tiny number of articles in the grand scheme of things, but those articles were read by a huge number of people.
Then you have feminists who have an ideological axe to grind but who don't overtly push it in their professional work. MovieBob keeps his content mostly free from direct feminist support, but check out his twitter feed and it's a whole different story.
Even 1% seems like a lot. How many sports articles are there referencing Islam or Conservative politics I wonder? Why are any political articles allowed in a hobby community?
Finally lets not forget that we just witnessed the greatest attempt and mass-censorship in the history of this industry in order to protect the reputation of a woman. That proves that even that 1% of control is enough to massively influence the media.
Small numbers can be used to obfuscate greater influence than is obvious. There is an interesting article from Freakonomics which showed how an idea only needed to be accepted by 10% of a group before the rest of the group fully adopts it. I'll try to find a link.
I can already see where this is going, which is to a "yes, it is", "no, it isn't".s69-5 said:
I actually said why it must be of AAA to matter. Not going to repeat myself.
It's not about being misinformed, it's why assassins creed has had 9 games, all brown haired white guys ... except one and a half (liberation had a woman and 3 was a mixed race guy). It's why just about every big dev produces the same character, the white guy saves the day! Marcus Phoenix, Snake, Nathan Drake, Mario, every COD, Aiden Pearce, GTA (GTA5, 3 characters, 2 of which are white!), battlefield, resident evil, Joel in the last of us .... dragon age lets you choose your gender but who is on the box art for the second game? The male.
Then when a woman does get the limelight, they are showing more skin than an exotic dancer. It's so, desperate awkward teen! Like those two games, one where you feel boobs and the other where you're in a girls bedroom ... so lecherous, seedy and depraved. To me, it makes it seem like we are the stereotypical male nerds who can't talk to girls, so we draw pictures of them ... for rule 34-esque stuff. Give Lara Croft a coat and insulted pants, make the next COD have you play as G.I Jane, make a spin off game about sniper wolf, let the next assassins creed star a black female slave (here is the story for it, gets approached by an assassin to kill her owner and the game is her journey from useless to running her own guild, killing her previous owner and maybe his friends to free more slaves).
The problem isn't with the indie or Japanese games, it's the triple A where the problem lies. Just look at your "Notice the large amount of female protagonists:" and half the list is "choice of gender" as for the other subsections, who cares if a woman appears in the game? They are usually there as the love interest. I'm talking about a good female character, that isn't exploited/sexually explicit but is still as competent as any man.
I am not totally against sex appeal, just has to be done right. I actually think Ada Wong is a good example ... she wears a red dress but still uses guns BUT she plays Chris (or is it Leon? My Resident evil knowledge is lacking)
like a fucking fiddle constantly! She is a femme fatale, they empower a woman by using her looks and sex appeal to make a man weak ... shes also not useless, it's not like she is using him 'cos he is her shield.
Maybe I have this view 'cos I mainly only play AAA but if you did, I am sure you would agree.
Edit: what about bioshock infinite? Weren't you meant to play as Elizebeth at first but they changed it? Or was it the box art? Either way, you play as the big strong white guy keeping the poor innocent girl safe.
What about Bioshock Infinite? What does that have to do with anything? Of all the points you could make, you go out of your way complain that Elizabeth isn't a gun toting action girl?omega 616 said:
I get what your saying. You want more action girls. But why do people always insist on expressing that by pointing out beloved female characters and complaining about them?
You were doing just fine, if a bit "stop liking the things I don't like!" in terms of sex appeal and definitely exaggerating how much women are used for sex appeal, but basically doing just fine. And then out of left field you call out a specific game noted for having a great female character and complain about how she doesn't shoot people.
This shit drives me crazy. And I don't even like Bioshock Infinite. Do you see what you are making me do? I am actually defending that crap game.
This is the sort of thing that turns people off feminism. The discussion is always framed around how games need to be less. Less sex appeal, less white males, but always less. Why is the discussion never about how games can and should be more? Why is it that most feminists deliver their message in such a way that will guarantee the maximum hostility from the target audience?
I swear, there is no group in the world worse at selling an idea than feminists.
Not really action girls, just girls!DrOswald said:
I'd like the idea of playing as a totally helpless child sneaking past adults, like a kid trying to go out when shes grounded. I'd like a kind of "gold digger" game ... playing men off against each other to get what she wants, like a dating sim (maybe that already exists, sounds kind of like a japanese game).
Basically, men are known for being like Rambo, charge the enemy firing wildly and taking on all comers, a female like Kate O'Hara from desperados, here is her bio:"An Irish American and a professional gambler, Kate is saved by Cooper, Sam and McCoy in Baton Rouge after being accused of cheating. She is beautiful and seductively charming but quite overconfident, a trait which gets her into trouble more than once. Just like Cooper, her tutorial takes place in Opelousas.Kate has poker cards for luring guards, a mirror - which is used for either blinding enemies or lighting Sam's TNT barrels from a distance - and a powerful and (relatively) silent, but short-ranged, Derringer. Kate can attract men by playing with her garter belt and then can kick them; her kick is faster and stronger than Cooper's punch. A little-used ability in this game is her disguise skill. Kate is also the only character who can automatically move silently when walking on noisy surfaces."
Say, that character in a game like Red dead redemption. Instead of charging a gangs hide out, you charm a rival gang to do it for you, like did you ever see the shield, with Michael Chiklis? How he manipulated people, he always managed to wriggle out of it? Like that.
No, Elizabeth is a little helper gnome, from what I have played of the game, she is a little escort quest with a gimmick attached (the whole portal shit). Why I brought her up is 'cos she was in one way or another passed up for a white guy. Not 100% sure on it but still, it's a white guy saving a little girl.
Ok, so instead of "less men" how about "more women"?
Even this one?Rayce Archer said:
http://i.imgur.com/2KSbH1L.jpg
Or this one
http://i.imgur.com/uSGUiBS.png (this was over a kid who said rape jokes are not always bad)
(and if you want to say that's not a real feminist, then MRAs get to claim that terrible people who say they're MRAs don't count either)
But... but... she is a *whispers mysteriously* "Femitheist"...giles said:
Not Feminist.
Whatever a Femitheist is or how you pronounce it.
But this is creeeeepy.
Also, I never understood how MRA and Feminists are even opposing things; if you factor out the misogynistic and misandristic ones they want the same I think.
Like, I'm a feminist, and I'm totally for getting equal gender ratio in the draft etc.
It seems like a no brainer. Feminists don't want women to be protected anymore then man, they want the reverse. Just like the MRA.
Also I'm totally for more justice in custody trials and the like... And most feminists I know/read on the internet want the same.
Feminism is more about "drop the gender boxes BS", just like MRA I guess.
So yeah... MRAs who don't hate women but want equality are feminists in my book and vice versa.
:/ Are you certain about this?clinicalPsychologist said:
Anyways, in regards to that graph that was posted: that's a good visualization. Many people want more of everything; allowing for consumers to buy the games that appeal to them. However, I do believe there is the notion that only so many games are developed at a time and therefore there is some limitation to how much of everything can feasibly be made. In that mind-frame its understandable that people who subscribe to certain beliefs may want less eroticized and traditional male dominant character games to be made to free up development resources for games that appeal to their sensibilities.
I've noticed that Japanese games tend to have more female protagonists (even though I haven't played or heard of a single game you listed.s69-5 said:
My next challenge for you is to name one that is not in a ridiculous fetishist get up
I hate to be a beggar and try and choose but the Japanese side of the culture is not our friend when it comes to progress on this front. For every Heavy Rain (I am willing to overlook the sexualized aspects of that game because they drove the plot, made sense, and weren't shoehorned in for their own stupid sake) there seems to be 20 Merurulince Rede Arls'.
As an aside, I did google all five of the characters you listed with safesearch on, and still came up with the skimpy fetish outfits. If this is not how they dress in the game, or is not the "default", do let me know.
s69-5 said:newfoundsky said:I work two jobs and I completely understand being tired. I did not mean at all to come off as aggressive. If I need a shift in tone, send me a PM because I'm not here to argue, just discuss. Now to answer your questions!s69-5 said:If I come off aggressive here, chalk it up to being tired and responsive to that hint of aggression in yours.omega 616 said:1. Do you consider yourself a feminist?
2. If yes, do you consider yourself a sex positive or sex negative feminist? ie. Do you feel that women are entiltled to their own sexuality and can dress in any way they feel appropriate - or are they to be prudish and they should dress conservatively at all times?
3. Have you played any / all of these games?
4. If no, have you read up on character descriptions at the very least? If no, do so.
5. If yes, have you noticed that that Zero and Chou-Chou are empowered and in firm control of their own sexuality? Probably more so than any other video game female ever created? Are they not entitled to dress in a way that reflects this?
6. Do you think that Meruru is quite strong and independant? She is a princess who defies her father to follow her dream of opening her own alchemy shop. She travels the world for her alchemy, collecting ingredients and still finds time to help others.
7. Do you think that Ayesha is strong and independant, maintaining her alchemy shop, in a bleak world, while she sets of, alone (at first), to search for her long lost sister?
8. Are you aware that the character designer for Atelier: Ayesha is a woman named Hidari?
9. Are you aware that the target demographic for the Atelier series tends to be female and the story/ art direction reflects this?
10. Did you look at the list of games that I own, on PS3 only (just to limit it), that has female protagonists? Do you have as many games that feature female protagonists, thus supporting the idea monetarily - or are you all talk?
11. Can you please define "fetish outfits" in regard to Merurulince, Ayesha and Serah, without being sex-negative please?
Thank you for your time.
I do, to an extant that everyone should be equal everywhere. This does include men/women who want to write purposefully goofy, fetished female characters. I am against the trope itself, however, if this clears up any confusion from my previous post.
I suppose I would be sex positive. I'm not against anyone but those that can not legally consent having sex with anyone. Men and Women should be able to walk around naked if they so choose, but I also really don't want to see everyone dragging around their business like that, feel me? Now, would anyone in there right mind go to war in a gimp outfit? If they chose to, I would assume they had some sort of death wish, or really did not need the armor at all.
Many games make a point to have defense stats instead of armor ratings. I do not know about the games you listed, in particular.
I would also point out that fake people can not choose how to dress and I am looking purely at the design decisions here. Someone, somewhere, had to make the decision to adhere to a trope and perpetuate it.
Admmittedly, no, but I am willing to give them a shot
I have not, but will.
I will PM you after I read up on the characters, but still hold that the style of dress is a deliberate trope that is bad for the industry and bad for the rest of us. You can write a perfectly strong female character and ruin it because "Strong female characters don't care how they dress" or "Strong female characters dress sexily", which, I BELIEVE, Japanese games suffer from.
I was not in both cases, but do not understand how this should impact how I view the artwork and direction of the game. If it is perpetuating a trope I feel is bad for the industry, I do not care what or who made it.
Off the top of my head, the only game I own with a female protagonist would be Borderlands 1 and 2 (class dependent, unfortunately) and Heavy Rain. I'm not going to argue who is the better feminist based on how many female characters we can name or games we own, because that would be silly. "You do not need a reason or three piece suit to argue the truth." The trope is bad for the industry, in my view, and I will argue that point, because of how pervasive it is.
Absolutely. Here we have three young women, not at all dressed in any way like they are prepared for a long journey/combat. They are designed in such a way that they are supposed to be pleasant to look at, and the character itself is secondary. That is my whole issue with the trope. You can design beautiful women, and do it without falling into this trope.11. Can you please define "fetish outfits" in regard to Merurulince, Ayesha and Serah, without being sex-negative please?
I am not purposefully being aggressive here either, so please let me know if my tone needs shifted