A View From the Road: Dungeons, Directed

[Jandau]

I think you're all missing the point here. The point is that it would still be a challenge, just an infinitely more scalable one.

Do the zombies lie down and die in L4D just because the Director adapts the game to how you're performing? Of course not.

You are taking a small number of gaming mechanics and talking about mixing them up, but you're neglecting the context in which they exist.

Every L4D game starts the players at the roughly same power level, be it their first game ever or if they are hardened veterans. Furthermore, the are no lasting rewards for success.

WoW (and MMOs in general) do have a system of persistent rewards through which the players gradually grow in power (namely gear). Providing a dynamically scaling difficulty would also require dynamically scaled loot, otherwise people would simply exploit the system by sucking on purpose to get by easier. And if you made such a system, a group might win the boss fight only to get the "crappy" version of the items and feel like the game is telling them "You suck, but here's a little something anyway."

Also, you compare an FPS to an MMORPG. Let's try another comparison - Oblivion. Ask the general public how they felt about scaling there. Or better yet, just search these forums. The general consensus was that it was one of the worst features of the game. I'm inclined to belive that when it comes to the underlying game mechanics, WoW has more in common with Oblivion than with L4D.

And finally, WoW already has scaling. I haven't played in a while (quit just before WotLK) but as far as I know every Dungeon/Raid has a Normal and Hard mode.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I'm not with you on this, but I do understand what you mean and it is a good idea. It just isn't what I would want in an MMORPG. I love it when luck plays a part of a match, because it makes it so much more tense.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I think you're all missing the point here. The point is that it would still be a challenge, just an infinitely more scalable one.

Do the zombies lie down and die in L4D just because the Director adapts the game to how you're performing? Of course not.

You are taking a small number of gaming mechanics and talking about mixing them up, but you're neglecting the context in which they exist.

Every L4D game starts the players at the roughly same power level, be it their first game ever or if they are hardened veterans. Furthermore, the are no lasting rewards for success.

WoW (and MMOs in general) do have a system of persistent rewards through which the players gradually grow in power (namely gear). Providing a dynamically scaling difficulty would also require dynamically scaled loot, otherwise people would simply exploit the system by sucking on purpose to get by easier. And if you made such a system, a group might win the boss fight only to get the "crappy" version of the items and feel like the game is telling them "You suck, but here's a little something anyway."

Also, you compare an FPS to an MMORPG. Let's try another comparison - Oblivion. Ask the general public how they felt about scaling there. Or better yet, just search these forums. The general consensus was that it was one of the worst features of the game. I'm inclined to belive that when it comes to the underlying game mechanics, WoW has more in common with Oblivion than with L4D.

And finally, WoW already has scaling. I haven't played in a while (quit just before WotLK) but as far as I know every Dungeon/Raid has a Normal and Hard mode.

He's not comparing L4D to WoW, he just says that L4D has an AI that adapts the setting and enemies to the players situation and he wishes WoW would do the same.

And the present "scaling" in WoW is simply bosses with less health and damage, and often less attacks. He's talking about an AI adapting to the situation, so that if a raid messes up they'll be able to recover during the fight without a wipe.

 

[Metalgamer81]

The author of this piece lost me when he said that if the boss spikes a healer, he would lower tank damage to compensate. That's like saying that when the game introduces an element which challenges the player, he should then remove some other challenging element. Basically, the author just wants an easier game. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. Bosses do things to challenge and frustrate the player. It's a huge part of what they're in the game for.
Other "AI director" type features might be nice, like keeping the encounters dynamic by throwing enemies at the player at different points in time or moving around the location of items, but not so much that it tricks players into thinking they're accomplishing something when they're not.
The author's idea is akin to giving a kid a trophy just for participating in a school soccer game. A reward for accomplishing nothing.

 

[Ravek]

So John Funk wants the boss to react to the players, so that whatever your team is composed of, you'll still have a fighting chance? Then it suddenly doesn't matter anymore how you structure your team. Gone is the need for tactics.

 

[Dobrev]

The AI director is a tool to bring more variety to the game. It also will reward or penalise players depending on their game plan - taking the long/hard road vs. reclessly zerging to the objective.

WoW raid bosses function the same way. Variety is achieved by having several bosses in each instance. And each of them functions in a different way, employs new game mechanics. In order to clear the dungeon you are required pull all kinds of tactics. And while a the first boss may be easier if you go with few healers and more brute force. The next one will have hard healing requirements and lower emphasis on the DPS.

..
Other "AI director" type features might be nice, like keeping the encounters dynamic by throwing enemies at the player at different points in time or moving around the location of items, but not so much that it tricks players into thinking they're accomplishing something when they're not...

Lady Vashj is a great example of how randomness can be done in WoW. And the reason why it was such a hard encounter.


Both games achieve the same goal of being hard diverse and enjoyable, but using different design. Pulling one feature and inserting it into the other game will not make it better. It will rebalance it and without a complete review of the whole game. So don't expect AI Director in WoW. It might be done in a different game, but it will need to be designed with such feature in mind.

 

[jtesauro]

I'm with John on this one, and this is alot of what annoyed me about WoW when I played and yes, raided. I was an above average tank who did very well in ten mans, but I saw the road that it would take to become better and the committment that would be on my life.

The end result? Curator was my *****, yes, but I have still never tanked Kil'Jaeden or Illidan. Does that bother me? A little, I honestly don't see why a game should penalize me for, god forbid, other social obligations in my life. i.e. a girlfriend who was supportive enough to check out WoW with me but wasn't THAT into it, as well as a full time job.

 

[jtesauro]

The author of this piece lost me when he said that if the boss spikes a healer, he would lower tank damage to compensate. That's like saying that when the game introduces an element which challenges the player, he should then remove some other challenging element. Basically, the author just wants an easier game. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. Bosses do things to challenge and frustrate the player. It's a huge part of what they're in the game for.
Other "AI director" type features might be nice, like keeping the encounters dynamic by throwing enemies at the player at different points in time or moving around the location of items, but not so much that it tricks players into thinking they're accomplishing something when they're not.
The author's idea is akin to giving a kid a trophy just for participating in a school soccer game. A reward for accomplishing nothing.

I'm pretty sure you completely missed the point of this article.

 

[Chipperz]

God. Yes.

I have already acknowledged that I like my free time too much to become a "serious" raider, but my character's backstory revolves around the Lich King, and has done since before Wrath of the Lich King was a concept anyone had heard of - I want to be able to kill him, and I frankly don't give a shit that the elitist dickholes want a challenge. Trust me, there's more people like me than there are that want "teh hardcore raidz", if Blizzard really wants money, they'll make them accessible.

Also, a more random combat would be brilliant. I fall down because I can't memorise large ammounts of data quickly - if I just had to react to what happened, I'd prefer that a lot...

 

[John Funk]

"The other night, my World of Warcraft guild and I made our first exploration into the frigid halls of Icecrown Citadel, the final (and most difficult) raid dungeon in Wrath of the Lich King."

Oh god, I laughed so hard.
I feel sorry for you, Funk.

Anyway, I'd love something like that to come to WoW, at least in 5-mans. It might make things interesting and less formulamatic, which is what makes doing the instances stale in the first place.

Pretty sure it's supposed to be, man. That's kind of the point.

Not saying it's harder than, say, SWP, but it should be the hardest in the WotLK cycle.

A View From the Road: Dungeons, Directed

Let?s apply Left 4 Dead?s AI Director to a World of Warcraft raid. What do we get?

Read Full Article

Soooo, you're suggesting we get rid of challenge and sense of accomplishment? Even if it's geared to always be challenging, it still removes any sense of progressing since it doesn't matter if you try the encounter in crap gear with a bunch of slightly trained monkeys or a top-geared guild of skilled players working together like a well oiled machine.

The reason it works in L4D is because there is no progression. There aren't any higher tiers of difficulty (unless you turn on the higher difficulty settings) and there are no lasting rewards that come after you clear the encounter. Every time you start a new game in L4D you get knocked back to your original power level. However, MMOs assume the players gradually grow in power and provide appropriate rewards as the player progresses.

The only way your idea would work is if the gear dropped depended on your performance. If the boss had to go easy on you, then you'd get worse gear than if he went all out. But that's already in WoW, isn't it? Normal and Hard mode dungeons (with appropriate loot drops), some boss encounters can be harder or easier depending on how you set it up such as the Sartharion fight, etc.

Basically, this comes down to two things:

1. Not all game mechanics are compatible.

2. You're just sad you didn't get any loot the first time you tried the hardest raid dungeon in the game. L2P

I think you're all missing the point here. The point is that it would still be a challenge, just an infinitely more scalable one.

Do the zombies lie down and die in L4D just because the Director adapts the game to how you're performing? Of course not.

You are taking a small number of gaming mechanics and talking about mixing them up, but you're neglecting the context in which they exist.

Every L4D game starts the players at the roughly same power level, be it their first game ever or if they are hardened veterans. Furthermore, the are no lasting rewards for success.

WoW (and MMOs in general) do have a system of persistent rewards through which the players gradually grow in power (namely gear). Providing a dynamically scaling difficulty would also require dynamically scaled loot, otherwise people would simply exploit the system by sucking on purpose to get by easier. And if you made such a system, a group might win the boss fight only to get the "crappy" version of the items and feel like the game is telling them "You suck, but here's a little something anyway."

Also, you compare an FPS to an MMORPG. Let's try another comparison - Oblivion. Ask the general public how they felt about scaling there. Or better yet, just search these forums. The general consensus was that it was one of the worst features of the game. I'm inclined to belive that when it comes to the underlying game mechanics, WoW has more in common with Oblivion than with L4D.

And finally, WoW already has scaling. I haven't played in a while (quit just before WotLK) but as far as I know every Dungeon/Raid has a Normal and Hard mode.

You should really actually read the piece from beginning to end before posting, since I cover most of those points explicitly.

It would be more organic and less "here is a different level" than the Normal/Hard mode divide, and yes, it would offer dynamically scaled loot. I don't see how this would be any different than having the existing Normal/Hard mode divide when it comes to loot. The incentive to improve comes from the incentive of having a more interesting, more engaging boss fight for the sake of better gear.

(And we killed him. L2Read)

The author of this piece lost me when he said that if the boss spikes a healer, he would lower tank damage to compensate. That's like saying that when the game introduces an element which challenges the player, he should then remove some other challenging element. Basically, the author just wants an easier game. I strongly disagree with that sentiment. Bosses do things to challenge and frustrate the player. It's a huge part of what they're in the game for.
Other "AI director" type features might be nice, like keeping the encounters dynamic by throwing enemies at the player at different points in time or moving around the location of items, but not so much that it tricks players into thinking they're accomplishing something when they're not.
The author's idea is akin to giving a kid a trophy just for participating in a school soccer game. A reward for accomplishing nothing.

Again, the point isn't that the players would have to do NOTHING to beat the boss. There would still be a skill floor. No one's talking about removing the challenging elements, just adapting them on the fly to create a more organic and dynamic fight that is less reliant on the random number generator.

 

[TheMatt]

Speaking as a hardcore raider, SCREW THAT noise. It is already too easy for the nubs.

 

[John Funk]

Speaking as a hardcore raider, SCREW THAT noise. It is already too easy for the nubs.

Frankly, that's the attitude that I'd really just like to tell people to shove somewhere uncomfortable.

The game should be as accessible as possible, and if that somehow ruins your experience because OH NOES OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T CONSIGN THEIR LIVES TO THIS ARE ENJOYING THE CONTENT OF THE GAME, then ... I have no sympathy for that.

The current Wrath raid model, with hard modes and achievements, is the best thing that has ever happened to WoW's PvE, period.

 

[John Funk]

Because then the fight would be near impossible to lose, and raid progression would have little to no meaning, since any generic group could down them.

And this is coming from a guy who doesn't raid. The closest I get to Icecrown Citadel is mining Saronite/Titanium there.

Going to copy-paste what I said a few posts up: Again, the point isn't that the players would have to do NOTHING to beat the boss. There would still be a skill floor. No one's talking about removing the challenging elements entirely, just adapting them on the fly to create a more organic and dynamic fight that is less reliant on the random number generator.

 

[DObs]

Speaking as a hardcore raider, SCREW THAT noise. It is already too easy for the nubs.

Frankly, that's the attitude that I'd really just like to tell people to shove somewhere uncomfortable.

The game should be as accessible as possible, and if that somehow ruins your experience because OH NOES OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T CONSIGN THEIR LIVES TO THIS ARE ENJOYING THE CONTENT OF THE GAME, then ... I have no sympathy for that.

The current Wrath raid model, with hard modes and achievements, is the best thing that has ever happened to WoW's PvE, period.

This whole 'accessibilty vs challenge' debate has me confused. I was in a very non-hc raiding guild when I played Wow. In Burning Crusade we hardly started SSC and only finished ZA about a week or 2 before that bizaare easy mode kicked in as Wrath was preparing for release. In Wrath (with pretty much the same guild and raid ethic) we hammered all the hc dungeons NAXX the 2 dragon bosses (cant remember there names now but the one with the extra dragons we did with 2 up) very quickly indeed. Ulduar was looking good we were making good progress and it was a real challenge (like in the BC days) then 2 or 3 weeks after it came out a few people cried on a few forums and they nerfed it all to hell. The next time we went we ploughed through about half of it... thats when I quit.

I personally am not some uber-gamer nor have I ever played 'hardcore' style (we raided twice a week max, 90% of the time it was once a week) I suck at TF2 but i love it, I suck at l4D but its prolly my favourite game atm, to be honest I was pretty crappy at WOW but i really enjoyed trying to get better at it until they took that away. Maybe this discussion is for another time and place but is making a game more accessible really just a case of dropping the difficulty of something to a level a chimp can achieve ( remember were on the 2nd expansion surly it should be getting harder as it moves along? ) I think the game was plently accessible when they allowed the top-end raids to be done as 10 man if you couldnt get 25 man together and when they made the LFG functions a lot better.

 

[John Funk]

Speaking as a hardcore raider, SCREW THAT noise. It is already too easy for the nubs.

Frankly, that's the attitude that I'd really just like to tell people to shove somewhere uncomfortable.

The game should be as accessible as possible, and if that somehow ruins your experience because OH NOES OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T CONSIGN THEIR LIVES TO THIS ARE ENJOYING THE CONTENT OF THE GAME, then ... I have no sympathy for that.

The current Wrath raid model, with hard modes and achievements, is the best thing that has ever happened to WoW's PvE, period.

This whole 'accessibilty vs challenge' debate has me confused. I was in a very non-hc raiding guild when I played Wow. In Burning Crusade we hardly started SSC and only finished ZA about a week or 2 before that bizaare easy mode kicked in as Wrath was preparing for release. In Wrath (with pretty much the same guild and raid ethic) we hammered all the hc dungeons NAXX the 2 dragon bosses (cant remember there names now but the one with the extra dragons we did with 2 up) very quickly indeed. Ulduar was looking good we were making good progress and it was a real challenge (like in the BC days) then 2 or 3 weeks after it came out a few people cried on a few forums and they nerfed it all to hell. The next time we went we ploughed through about half of it... thats when I quit.

I personally am not some uber-gamer nor have I ever played 'hardcore' style (we raided twice a week max, 90% of the time it was once a week) I suck at TF2 but i love it, I suck at l4D but its prolly my favourite game atm, to be honest I was pretty crappy at WOW but i really enjoyed trying to get better at it until they took that away. Maybe this discussion is for another time and place but is making a game more accessible really just a case of dropping the difficulty of something to a level a chimp can achieve ( remember were on the 2nd expansion surly it should be getting harder as it moves along? ) I think the game was plently accessible when they allowed the top-end raids to be done as 10 man if you couldnt get 25 man together and when they made the LFG functions a lot better.

Plenty of people still can't beat Ulduar. If you want challenge, that's what the Hard modes should be for.

I've been a fan of Warcraft since WC2. I want to see the Arthas storyline to the end. If I couldn't do that because Blizzard balanced the raid around the 10% of people who can sign away their lives to a game, I'ma be pissed.

 

[Cartographer]

It sounds to me like you ran into an encounter mechanic that you didn't plough through with no thought whatsoever and decided to cry about it.
Frankly, the raid being coordinated enough to spot that its healers are all out of action and then take action swiftly enough to counter that effect is a perfectly legitimate measuring stick of whether you have the "skill" to complete the encounter. Exactly the same as an enrage timer is a measure of whether your dps' rotation and/or gear is good enough combined with whether your tanks' threat output is high enough.

Sure I'd be intrigued to see an AI director in WoW or any other MMO that dynamically scaled the encounters, but I think the only direction for the difficulty should be upwards. Fundamentally the base difficulty of the boss/encounter is a gear/skill check and shouldn't be messed with IMO, like asking the players: "Are you rolling you face across the keyboard to complete this encounter?". Those who answer "Yes" ie those who find it incredibly easy, be that through out-gearing it or simply being better coordinated, more responsive to changes etc. will get a scaling encounter that offers a challenge and rewards equal (and perhaps slightly higher) to the level of play they are capable of.

All too often I see players whine about how their $XXX per month entitles them to see/do everything, they're wrong. All to which their money entitles them is the opportunity to see/do everything, usually in exchange for their free time. You're just deluded if you think the game "owes" you anything at all.

 

[TheMatt]

snip

Frankly, that's the attitude that I'd really just like to tell people to shove somewhere uncomfortable.

The game should be as accessible as possible, and if that somehow ruins your experience because OH NOES OTHER PEOPLE WHO DON'T CONSIGN THEIR LIVES TO THIS ARE ENJOYING THE CONTENT OF THE GAME, then ... I have no sympathy for that.

The current Wrath raid model, with hard modes and achievements, is the best thing that has ever happened to WoW's PvE, period.

The point is Blizzard has fallen over themselves to cater to the nubs.

1-60, increased exp for quests.
1-60 decreased exp needed for each level.
Netherwing drake? Used to take a FRICKING HOUR to kill the 5 razor guys you needed for the daily, now the cave is full of them.
Don;t worry about walking to the raid!!! We'll tele you there!! and back again!
Badge loot ridiculously good gear? Sure np, cause badges are not easy to get!
Make badges easier to get? NP! now you get 2 for each boss you kill (pre wotlk)
make the new badge gear easier to get? Np, you now get 2 badges for your random dungeon!
Need money? here's 37 easy as balls daily quests!
Need better gear and money at the same time for doing nothing? Here's the argent crusade, GL!

So, frankly, take your "to shove somewhere uncomfortable." and shove it somewhere uncomfortable.

 

[meredithe]

I don't really play MMOs (mostly because I got sick to death of that graveyard in WoW), but this seems like the sort of thing many games should implement. Dying and reloading or having to go find your body is the best way to lose immersion and ramp up player frustration. Autoleveling is bad, but this sort of thing could work in some games if done carefully.

OT: The HL2 thing isn't such a lie as you both make it seem. It's completely possible to lose that segment and get the game over message, multiple times if you're a poor driver or a bad shot. Not that I did or anything....