A View From the Road: Dungeons, Directed

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John Funk

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Dec 20, 2005
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Cartographer said:
It sounds to me like you ran into an encounter mechanic that you didn't plough through with no thought whatsoever and decided to cry about it.
Frankly, the raid being coordinated enough to spot that its healers are all out of action and then take action swiftly enough to counter that effect is a perfectly legitimate measuring stick of whether you have the "skill" to complete the encounter. Exactly the same as an enrage timer is a measure of whether your dps' rotation and/or gear is good enough combined with whether your tanks' threat output is high enough.

Sure I'd be intrigued to see an AI director in WoW or any other MMO that dynamically scaled the encounters, but I think the only direction for the difficulty should be upwards. Fundamentally the base difficulty of the boss/encounter is a gear/skill check and shouldn't be messed with IMO, like asking the players: "Are you rolling you face across the keyboard to complete this encounter?". Those who answer "Yes" ie those who find it incredibly easy, be that through out-gearing it or simply being better coordinated, more responsive to changes etc. will get a scaling encounter that offers a challenge and rewards equal (and perhaps slightly higher) to the level of play they are capable of.

All too often I see players whine about how their $XXX per month entitles them to see/do everything, they're wrong. All to which their money entitles them is the opportunity to see/do everything, usually in exchange for their free time. You're just deluded if you think the game "owes" you anything at all.
Again, we killed him just fine on Saturday, and I've never been one to just give up on bosses (certainly not, given how long it took us to down Nefarian back in the days of BWL...), but I have a problem with certain RNG rolls making a given fight impossible. It's the same problem that people had on Brutallus back in SWP - if you could continue dodging strikes, great, but if he hit three times in a row, you were smashed into paste.

It should be scalable. If one tank goes down, it shouldn't automatically be a wipe - having a game that adjusts and reacts to good and bad performance is infinitely more interesting than what is essentially a binary game.

TheMatt said:
The point is Blizzard has fallen over themselves to cater to the nubs.

1-60, increased exp for quests.
1-60 decreased exp needed for each level.
Netherwing drake? Used to take a FRICKING HOUR to kill the 5 razor guys you needed for the daily, now the cave is full of them.
Don;t worry about walking to the raid!!! We'll tele you there!! and back again!
Badge loot ridiculously good gear? Sure np, cause badges are not easy to get!
Make badges easier to get? NP! now you get 2 for each boss you kill (pre wotlk)
make the new badge gear easier to get? Np, you now get 2 badges for your random dungeon!
Need money? here's 37 easy as balls daily quests!
Need better gear and money at the same time for doing nothing? Here's the argent crusade, GL!

So, frankly, take your "to shove somewhere uncomfortable." and shove it somewhere uncomfortable.
Every single change you mention is something that the game is unquestionably better for. Oh, I'm sorry, do you want your games to be long and tedious? Do you want to slog through 60 levels before you even start getting to the interesting content at Outland?

I'm sorry, I have a life. I have other games to play. WoW is a hobby, not a lifestyle, and if you can sign away your life to it then hey, have fun with that. But the fact that they're making the game more convenient and less of a chore to play is something that should be applauded.

You can scream and drag your heels all you like, but making games more accessible to people who don't play them for forty hours a week is the best thing that ever happened to the MMOG market.
 

TheMatt

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CantFaketheFunk said:
Cartographer said:
Every single change you mention is something that the game is unquestionably better for. Oh, I'm sorry, do you want your games to be long and tedious? Do you want to slog through 60 levels before you even start getting to the interesting content at Outland?

I'm sorry, I have a life. I have other games to play. WoW is a hobby, not a lifestyle, and if you can sign away your life to it then hey, have fun with that. But the fact that they're making the game more convenient and less of a chore to play is something that should be applauded.

You can scream and drag your heels all you like, but making games more accessible to people who don't play them for forty hours a week is the best thing that ever happened to the MMOG market.
"I'm sorry, I have a life. I have other games to play. WoW is a hobby, not a lifestyle, and if you can sign away your life to it then hey, have fun with that."

wtf? The fact that I think the game caters to noobs too much means I do not have a life? That WoW, in fact, IS my lifestyle? How about blow me? I was just disagreeing with you, dude. Anyway, if that's how you want to play, go fuck yourself, and gl in life.
 

BioTox

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ICC isn't the hardest raid by any stretch. We've already had groups clear ICC10 and looking to do the same for ICC25. I don't think they need to scale the fight depending on gear/health/cc'd healers/etc. That's part of the challenge, even for the 'normal' fights. If you get those down without wiping and everyone thinking it's 'too easy,' Blizzard made Hard-Mode for you. :)

Blizzard has it so that everyone can see the content now. No one remember 40man raids? LoL All you need to do it gear up, which they made so easy with the new patch for triumph badges. The rest comes down to learning the fights and having the skills to do them. Takes practice :D
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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TheMatt said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
Cartographer said:
Every single change you mention is something that the game is unquestionably better for. Oh, I'm sorry, do you want your games to be long and tedious? Do you want to slog through 60 levels before you even start getting to the interesting content at Outland?

I'm sorry, I have a life. I have other games to play. WoW is a hobby, not a lifestyle, and if you can sign away your life to it then hey, have fun with that. But the fact that they're making the game more convenient and less of a chore to play is something that should be applauded.

You can scream and drag your heels all you like, but making games more accessible to people who don't play them for forty hours a week is the best thing that ever happened to the MMOG market.
"I'm sorry, I have a life. I have other games to play. WoW is a hobby, not a lifestyle, and if you can sign away your life to it then hey, have fun with that."

wtf? The fact that I think the game caters to noobs too much means I do not have a life? That WoW, in fact, IS my lifestyle? How about blow me? I was just disagreeing with you, dude. Anyway, if that's how you want to play, go fuck yourself, and gl in life.
I was using the generic you, not YOU in particular - apologies for not making that more clear. But don't insult staff - this is going to be your only warning.

BioTox said:
ICC isn't the hardest raid by any stretch. We've already had groups clear ICC10 and looking to do the same for ICC25. I don't think they need to scale the fight depending on gear/health/cc'd healers/etc. That's part of the challenge, even for the 'normal' fights. If you get those down without wiping and everyone thinking it's 'too easy,' Blizzard made Hard-Mode for you. :)

Blizzard has it so that everyone can see the content now. No one remember 40man raids? LoL All you need to do it gear up, which they made so easy with the new patch for triumph badges. The rest comes down to learning the fights and having the skills to do them. Takes practice :D
Er, what? Only the first four bosses are open, and those aren't the tough ones.

I think that ICC will unquestionably be harder than Uld when all is said and done.
 

TheMatt

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CantFaketheFunk said:
TheMatt said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
Cartographer said:
snip
I was using the generic you, not YOU in particular - apologies for not making that more clear. But don't insult staff - this is going to be your only warning.
Well then my apologies too, I react to perceived insults with insults.

In any event, my ending point and the reason for the way I feel about this is not even logical, I admit that, but there it is. This is it,

I want you (you as in the proverbial) to have suffered as I have suffered.

Sure all those things are great but only if I (I wish you could double capitalize things that are already capitalized, picture a 30ft tall I) got to experience them. So yes, I am bitter as all hell about all the free crap all the new players get.

So I agree with you but I hate every second of it.

In closing, screw all you people who have never experienced barrens chat!!!! That's the REAL WoW.
 

PxDn Ninja

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TarkXT said:
coldfrog said:
The problem I'm seeing is, how do they decide when you lose? I like the idea of this as it will make it less frustrating, but will you EVER lose?
Considering how many times I've failed to get through a map on L4D I believe the answer is yes.
Personally I wouldn't stop at the bosses. Let's make those trash mobs random too.

As far as the harcore gamers are concerned: just keep the hardmode, don't bother adjusting the loot.

None of this is difficult L4D already gave you the answer.

Raiding guilds kill these bosses over and over anyway just for the loot keeping the fights fresh just makes it more exciting.
Plus they can use a mutation algorith on the director (which I suspect L4D does) where sometimes bad shit just happens (or good shit if that is what rolls up).

Your getting your ass kicked, so the director says "I need to pull back" and does a mutation check. Most times it will work fine, but occasionally the mutation says "Nope, BALLS TO THE WALL!" and the difficulty doesn't change, or even gets harder. Same in reverse. "I'm kicking their ass, times to ramp it up." Mutation: "Nah, let's stay the same."

Mutations would be rare (especially for making it easier), but it would happen. Thus even hardcore guilds in excellent gear would occasionally find themselves challenged.
 

BioTox

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CantFaketheFunk said:
Er, what? Only the first four bosses are open, and those aren't the tough ones.

I think that ICC will unquestionably be harder than Uld when all is said and done.
Well, glad you know that. When I say they cleared it and the other aren't open, wouldn't you think I meant the first wing is already cleared? Duh... So, you not knowing what's going to be in the next wings, you can't say "it's the hardest thing ever." It just sounds like you don't have a guild that knows how to raid/gets their butts handed to them by each boss.

Read up on the fights and you guys will get there :) Again, it takes practice.

**Edit**
Say No To Even More Easy Mode!
They've made WoW easy enough/more accessible already.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
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BioTox said:
CantFaketheFunk said:
Er, what? Only the first four bosses are open, and those aren't the tough ones.

I think that ICC will unquestionably be harder than Uld when all is said and done.
Well, glad you know that. When I say they cleared it and the other aren't open, wouldn't you think I meant the first wing is already cleared? Duh... So, you not knowing what's going to be in the next wings, you can't say "it's the hardest thing ever." It just sounds like you don't have a guild that knows how to raid/gets their butts handed to them by each boss.

Read up on the fights and you guys will get there :) Again, it takes practice.
You're making assumptions. Judging by the relative difficulty of Marrowgar and Deathwhisper to, say, Flame Leviathan and Ignis in Ulduar, I think there's absolutely no question that ICC is shaping up to be much more difficult than Uld was. I'm not saying it's the hardest thing ever, I'm just saying that it's the hardest content in this expansion.

But really, that's an incredibly minor detail compared to the overall point.
 

BioTox

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CantFaketheFunk said:
You're making assumptions. Judging by the relative difficulty of Marrowgar and Deathwhisper to, say, Flame Leviathan and Ignis in Ulduar, I think there's absolutely no question that ICC is shaping up to be much more difficult than Uld was. I'm not saying it's the hardest thing ever, I'm just saying that it's the hardest content in this expansion.

But really, that's an incredibly minor detail compared to the overall point.
What I am saying is you don't need to change the current settings based on a groups performance. Example: If you can't do ICC [first wing], see ToC10/25. Can't do that? See Uld10/25 -> OS10/25 -> Naxx10/25. They're there to get you gear for ICC. If others can do it, you can too. Why make yours instance easier and someone else fight a harder one just because they're doing better. They did everything you can to get there. If they need more of a challenge, they have hard mode to try. If you need less of one, there are other raids/badge farming for gear.

**Edit**
Last post on the matter, sorry if you don't agree. I've just played 4 years and have seen it get easier and easier.
 

Valiance

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CantFaketheFunk said:
Yeah, I'm not denying the difficulty considering I haven't even done it, but my current guild (my "terribad" guild who can't even get a single thing down in heroic 25man faction champs or a single keeper in ulduar 25) cleared it on the first night in 10 man, and got 2 bosses down in 25.

I was just astounded. Maybe it's difficult? Maybe it's only difficult because of a gear check? Maybe the later fights will be challenging and fun.

I just get the feeling that the few hard-modes I've done will be infinitely more difficult than most of ICC. THat doesn't make it bad, but just saying.
 

whaleswiththumbs

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That would be amazing, a smart MMO... but this could be like communism, best idea ever, on paper, but horrible to implement.
 

Cartographer

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CantFaketheFunk said:
Cartographer said:
Again, we killed him just fine on Saturday, and I've never been one to just give up on bosses (certainly not, given how long it took us to down Nefarian back in the days of BWL...), but I have a problem with certain RNG rolls making a given fight impossible. It's the same problem that people had on Brutallus back in SWP - if you could continue dodging strikes, great, but if he hit three times in a row, you were smashed into paste.

It should be scalable. If one tank goes down, it shouldn't automatically be a wipe - having a game that adjusts and reacts to good and bad performance is infinitely more interesting than what is essentially a binary game.
First off, BWL was the first raid instance that Blizzard got right IMO, "encounters" rather than trash pulls. Though they did go and ruin it a little by requiring everyone to have the exact right item of gear to survive four of the fights. Still, two (at that time) unique bosses right off the bat followed by a gauntlet event + boss with an aggro ceiling (again a gear check, but not a traditional one), a few slightly less inspired bosses then two awesome ones to finish the raid off. Yeah good times...
But seriously, what was with the 10 min wipe reset on Nefarian?

I disagree that the fights are made impossible by RNG, harder in some extreme cases yes, but impossible? Nope. If you are geared appropriately, "skilled" enough to take the boss down and crucially don't screw up in an astounding manner (minor screw-ups are a fact of life and will not wipe you if you fulfil the other two criteria) then you'd require a one-in-a-million RNG to wipe you, it won't happen regularly. I'd be very surprised if Blizzard implemented another fight on-par with Brutallus' for punishing under-gearing, they learned (a little) from that one.

In the scenario you described, with all healers disabled you still have time to react to the situation, your tanks have cool downs to blow and can perform a number of additional manoeuvres to prolong their life while the rest of the raid frees the healers. If the rest of the raid are incapable of that in the time the tanks can buy then I'm sorry, come back when you're better geared/more awake and try again, the encounter is beyond your raid at present.
 

Dimeinurear

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Ah yes, Lord Marrowgar.. wait until you get to Deathbringer Saurfang, now HE'S a ***** and a half (perhaps two halves). But I digress. A system like you imagined, I believe, would be a very fun addition to the game, but would be much more based on a "dynamic mode" kind of like how you can switch between normal and hard. This way, it tests less about your GEAR, but about your SKILL, kind of like the opposite of how the game is played now (i.e., "4,000+ GS [gear score] required").

It would certainly spice things up for myself.. I hate people who base the entire game off of numbers, although, sadly, that's a lot of how WoW is played: if you don't have the gear to pull something off, if your DPS can't do enough damage at their maximum, you can't do this fight. For a more specific example, my mage can do around 6k DPS when I use all his cooldowns, but only around 5k when it's just a simple frostfire bolt and living bomb. Essentially, using the number system of "how much can this player do?" "How often will they crit?" "How long can they keep hitting me before they go completely out of mana?" WOULD make for a dynamic mode to exist, but I don't see how they could really scale the boss's health to work well in this kind of system, as it would have to measure DPS, and.. well.. DPS is kind of tentative, it can spike or drop in certain phases and situations, as well as raid composition. Oh well, you have an amazing imagination, John, I wouldn't be surprised if Blizz implimented something like this in Cataclysm :)
 

teisjm

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I think this would happen

A lot of (hardcore) players would whine (and possibly quit) because the game got "dumped down" yet again.
A lot of people won't feel like they've achieved anything, if there wasn't a "set bar" for the challenge, if you're gonna succed whether you're good medicore or slightly bad, where's the challenge?
If the challenge isn't there, it'll just become yet another grind. Just think about how many people rush through the leveling, "cause thats just grind" i Mean, tehres people making a living by LEVELING OTHER PEOPLES CHARACTERS! so apparently, theres a whole lot of people out there, who doens't give a shit about the story, but only cares about getting to the end content, cause thats where the challenges are (cause you can't just wait a few more lvl's before doing that dungeon) People would know within a week, that the bosses nerfed themselves durring teh combat if you played poorly, so you would win the figth no matetr what, hence the drive to play good is gone, cause hey, you win either way.

As for the "on farm" status, it would still be there, now it would just be there for everyone, cause pro's and n00bs alike would be able to kill the boss without any problems, so they would just farm it.

Sure, it would work for story-driven players, but honestly, given how people turno-grind their way to end lvl content, and get otehr peopel to do it for them, i would guess that they're a minority. And even for them, if they're at the end they'd probably like it to last fro a little longer than a "on farm" boss, cause there's not much story left after that, untill the next patch/expansion.
 

LockeDown

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I think that while the director translates very well to games like Left 4 Dead (though he hasn't been making Expert any easier on me), I doubt it's suited to the MMORPG genre. In a game where static loot tables, hyper-size internet egos, and cliquish guild behavior abound (I used to play on multiple servers, so don't start with me on how your server is a special snowflake where that isn't the case), it's very hard to do something like tailor an encounter that is intended to last months and make it adapt to your situation specifically.

If the raid encounters were more lenient, via AI coding, then all that would mean is that still more people would defeat the normal mode encounters, causing more people to attempt the hard modes, where they would experience the same random-number-generator hell hat you describe now. At that point, since they adapted the normal mode encounter, what's to stop the community from rallying to get them to make the "elite" encounter just as adaptable, and therefore just as easy.

Aside from that, wouldn't it simply be easier on Blizzard's part to simply write in code to make it so that (on this specific fight) no more than one healer could be affected by the spines? (Probably most easily done by simply labeling the bottom five units on the threat list as "healers".) Or, and I am not at all trying to be offensive here, perhaps this encounter is revealing an inherent flaw in the cooperativeness and adaptability of your healers. Maybe this is the time where you examine the fight and say "Alright, we lost because Healer X was spiked, and neither of the other 2/3/4 healers swapped out for him. Maybe we should assign alternates in case that happens next time, and work on our communication."

Either way, especially when there's loot involved, and the low overall attention span of the WoW community, I don't think making raids easier is the answer. I'm not necessarily all for making them the month-per-fight ordeal they used to be, or the nightmare of assembling 39 other players to try and take down a boss, but certainly no easier than they are now. Otherwise, you run the risk of the content your development staff slaved over being tossed aside too quickly, as the player horde sacks your offices, demanding their next great conquest.
 

jp201

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The problem I would have is that challenges would offset each other (example you had was healer gets spiked boss should do less damage) feels like it was pointless for there to even be a spike in first place(offset one challenge with a temporary nerf). There is also more then just loot its a sense of accomplishment of taking down a boss. It would feel weird that people even if there good who just hit 80 and in blues could kill lich king like someone in full icc gear it would eliminate the purpose of getting better gear if it didnt make encounters easier unless i wanted to stroke my epeen in game.

also RNG may suck (like on loot) but it makes bosses interesting because it keeps you on your toes all the time and not just a continuous well it doesn't matter who this hits or anything because boss will adjust for us. the OH SHIT 2 healers are impaled moment requires you to adjust and change healing on the fly which may suck but prevents boss from being as repetitive due to different circumstances that can occur.
 

Davey Woo

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Wouldn't say it's totally the same, but along the same lines, the bots in Guild Wars change their tactics (sort of) depending on whats going on.
They take into account armour levels, targetting those with the lowest first.
They target healers first, but they may change to targetting a high damage dealer.
They target people with higher death penalty (when you die you loss 15% of your maximum health, this stacks over multiple deaths)
They run from area of effect spells, and retreat to use healing skills (sometimes)

So yeh, it's sort of on the same lines, but nowhere near as advanced as the AI director of L4D
 

Eldarion

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Adjust the bosses attacks so that he hits healers for less damege???

No way. All it takes to down that boss is teamwork plain and simple. If you wipe because just one of your healers is incapacitated, then the issue is with the group. No need to dumb down content.
 

winky

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I am by no means hardcore or elitist or spending too much time playing but I do not like the idea of making encounters more lenient. As stated before, it is up to the group to be alert to spikes in damage (that is why we have trinkets and special abilities?) and healers and DPS should be organised to be aware of any slack.
What I would like if it was tuned subtly it could make events more interesting. Loot is only a part of the reward; there is a certain amount of satisfaction from downing the boss the first few times. If there was an AI director maintaining the challenge perhaps the satisfaction would remain.

Another idea that was suggested was to randomise abilities and trash. I enjoyed the random encounters of the opera house in Kharazan.

Random abilities and random trash would spice things up bit. I am of the opinion that there is very little strategy in WoW. Once everyone knows where to stand (not in the fire) and what to do (stop DPS) things are pretty straight forward. Having random abilities and random trash could keep people on their toes. Randomising the encounters but also utilising the AI director to make them achievable would be a happy compromise for me. Then you could reward players with achievements or the number of badges based on the difficulty.

Now I am writing from the point of view of a tank that has never done any of the WoTLK raids. I left for a year and returned to find that everyone has a tank character and there is not really the demand there once was. I personally feel that something should be done to make the game not necessarily harder but something that differentiates the good players from the rest. (The only challanging to tanks these days is marking the targets quick enough for the group :p) Since I came back, levelling to 80 was ridiculously easy to solo, instances and heroic instances don't even need CC, and the issued of threat management has mostly gone also.


TLDR:
In summary, I like the idea of an AI director, but only to maintain the challenge and hence the sense of satisfaction. I think that things are pretty straightforward as it is - however I say this having never tried the new raid content. (Only TBC and Classic raids)
I think that randomising encounters is required perhaps with the AI director to keep things interesting or achievable.
This results in challenging encounters for everyone and the opportunity to allow the good players to stand out from the crowd. Then a grading system could reward players - perhaps achievments or the number of badges could be linked to the difficulty.
 

Nateman742

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EDIT: Whoa whoa whoa, I seem to have missed the boat by about two months. My bad. Uh, should I just start a new thread somewhere?

/EDIT

Everyone who's against this idea seems to think John is suggesting that the game actually gets easy. He's not. He's suggesting that the fight changes depending on the group's skill level, preventing frustrating and time-consuming wipes. It's a basic sketch that needs fleshing out and tweaking to be effective.

To take his idea a step further, you could incorporate lore into this system. Let's say you're fighting a boss who, according to his backstory, is full of himself, haughty, and just an all-around cocky butthead. He starts out not giving his all because he expects you to die quickly. If you really start hammering it on him (i.e. you dip his health to a certain point in a certain amount of time), he'll pull out all the stops and gain access to brutal attacks that he wouldn't use on a team that is only slowly gaining the upper hand, and thus not using the most optimal strategy/setup. Only the elite players would get to face the strongest version of the boss, while those who don't feel like training/farming/finding the right guild could still win. They would be fighting an inferior version of the boss, but they could get past it.

It's not like the boss would be easy for them, though. This guy would be a challenge for anyone. They would likely wipe a few times before they learned what to do or implemented the strategy correctly. They would also lose access to a few pieces of gear. Let's say this guy realizes he's really getting his butt handed to him, so he traps you in the room with a few waves of henchmen while he grabs his big guns. If you kill him while he's wearing this gear, it's all yours, along with access to that secret room full of treasure that he so graciously revealed when he went to power up.

Meanwhile, you can still come back later and wail on the boss for whatever reason. He has a cap of how hard he can get, and if you have the right loot or level, you'll mop the floor with him.

Also, the system doesn't have to be so strongly scaled for every boss. The Lich King would still be tough as nails from the get-go, but if you beat the other bosses in his dungeon without making them go all-out on you, he wouldn't be AS hard. He would still take a lot of tries and adequate strategy, but it would be possible for lesser-geared people to take him down. Again, the rewards wouldn't be nearly as great, and the loot level gap between his forms would be higher than a lower-tier boss. Let's say you're showing Arthas what you're really made of. He calls upon his true power and puts everything he has into his gear, buffing it permanently. If you kill him, you get better versions of his drops. Maybe you get a vastly better version of his ring, or a special trinket that he summoned just to deal with you.

As for the issue of Blizzard losing money, they could actually gain revenue this way. A lot of players feel shut out by the grinding requirement and just don't play after a certain point, leaving their accounts to rot. If they got a taste of the end-game and hear that with the right stuff it can get better, a good portion of them would likely come back and grind their way to a more difficult, and rewarding, experience. The end result of this is not only player hours gained from people actually completing the game all the way through (by doing a minimal amount of grinding), but additional player hours gained from those same people doing it all over again the hard way.

A few points that are just a tad off topic:

Personally, I really, really don't have time to play WoW all day to meet an arbitrary requirement for beating a boss (especially when that requirement is gear), and the time sink required to pass later dungeons is one of the reasons I quit altogether. I'm sure I'm not alone. When you boil it down to the amount of money Blizz is making for subscriptions, as the majority of posters here seem to be doing, grabbing new gear is just a micro-transaction. And the luck aspect of it is something that really puts me off. It feels like gambling. "Want these gauntlets? That'll cost you anywhere from $0.35 to $7.00, depending on how generous the drop system is and whether or not your guildies hog all the drops."

Also, for a moment, imagine the system did get implemented: If you're so hardcore about your gaming experience, be hardcore about it and play a little Iron Man. In the event that your healer dies and the boss is set up to go easier on you from that point on, let the boss wipe you and try it again. You DO have a choice in the matter, you know.