About 25% of Americans Don't Know the Earth Revolves Around the Sun

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Bara_no_Hime

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Hawkeye21 said:
Also, how does one "kill viruses" anyway? Virus is a single organic molecule, it's not even an organism of any description. It isn't even alive.
Anti-virals. They exist (thanks to AIDS research) and are pretty effective. I have no idea how they work, but they do have them.

OT: I would express my outrage as a teacher, but sometimes the flaw is in the test, not the person being tested. A slightly confusing wording could throw off results. If people didn't know what the word "revolve" means, they might be like "no, Earth ORBITS the sun". Still stupid, but stupid for a different reason (lack of a proper vocabulary).
 

jakel_hybrid

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To be fair, the universe did not begin with a giant explosion. That is a gross simplification of the singularity event in which our own universe and a possible infinite number of other universes reached their current state. But that event set in motion all of the laws and dimensions of our current universe, including time itself. Therefore it can be said that there literally was no BEFORE.

Really noone understand the singularity, although people have spent their lives studying it. But to state matter of factly that "The Universe began with a giant explosion" is just as ignorant as any alternative theory.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Hawkeye21 said:
Also, how does one "kill viruses" anyway? Virus is a single organic molecule, it's not even an organism of any description. It isn't even alive.
Not correct. A virus is actually several organic molecules. DNA (or RNA) and several protein subunits which are assembled to create a protective capsid and docking equipment to associate with the cell membrane of its target cells.


iseko said:
2) some biological mechanisms are to hard to explain with evolution (as far as I know flagella fall under this categorie. Random mutation is a bit hard to believe to explain this one for the moment). This indicates intelligent design.
I long for the day when people stop confusing random mutation with evolution. It's an extremely minor part of evolution in the big picture. EXTREMELY minor. It's one of the mechanisms that give rise to variation. I can understand that people don't believe in evolution because people who are certain that they understand it but don't explain it wrong and make it sound illogical. I have studied evolutionary biology at a university level. That was when it dawned upon me that I never have understood evolution and I probably never will because it's infinitely more complicated than I imagined.
 

mysecondlife

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I would love to see the distribution of those people. My American friends think its the southern area. Redneck stereotypes and all that.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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MrHide-Patten said:
Americuh, Fuck Yeah!
Sorry if this sounds like a sterotype, but was this sample from Texas?

I honestly don't want to know how Australia fares, ignorance is bliss. Ironically.
Cue all the people going on about "theories" and "unconfirmed", blahty, blah.
I like to think we'd do a fair bit better. It's common sense. But then again our PM doesn't believe in climate change.
 

Lieju

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MinionJoe said:
Also, the specifics of the Big Bang (which is a misnomer) is continuously revised. Last theory I recall stated that the Big Bang's energy was released everywhere simultaneously, an event which lacks many of the usual traits of an explosion.
Yeah, I wouldn't know what to answer to that.
Was it an explosion?

And from what I've heard aren't there some other theories on it?
I only have a passing interest in the Big Bang and theoretical physics.
 

demoman_chaos

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I am not really surprised, but I am still saddened to be part of the dumbest civilized nation on the planet.

balladbird said:
I live in middle-of-nowhere, missouri, and I've lost track of how many "The big bang theory: God spoke and BANG, it happened" bumper stickers I've seen over the years.
Wait a tick, I am not the only one stuck in Nowhere, Missouri that can do that "thinking" thing most around only heard about on TV?!
 

PureChaos

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Well people would say the the universe didn't begin with a huge explosion and that we didn't develop from earlier species of animals due to religious beliefs not because they don't know the 'correct answer'. It's still bad a lot of Americans didn't know the Earth revolved around the sun.
 

GabeZhul

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Yopaz said:
I long for the day when people stop confusing random mutation with evolution. It's an extremely minor part of evolution in the big picture. EXTREMELY minor. It's one of the mechanisms that give rise to variation. I can understand that people don't believe in evolution because people who are certain that they understand it but don't explain it wrong and make it sound illogical. I have studied evolutionary biology at a university level. That was when it dawned upon me that I never have understood evolution and I probably never will because it's infinitely more complicated than I imagined.
To be fair, the basic idea and mechanisms of evolution are very simple and intuitive. Living organism give birth to offspring that are slightly different form them -> The difference may be beneficial, neutral or detrimental -> The ones with beneficial traits have a better chance of surviving in their environment and procreate -> Their offspring inherit the beneficial trait, but they are also slightly different from their parents in a beneficial/neutral/detrimental way -> Rinse and repeat -> The small changes add up over time to emphasize the beneficial traits while the detrimental traits die out -> The later generations are becoming different and more adapted to their environment than the first generation was -> Speciation.

Sure, the ways by which it works are complex. Individual variation, mutation, genetic drift, gene-multiplication, cross-breeding, etc. etc. etc. These are all the technical details that everyday people don't really need to concern themselves with. However, the fact that evolution exists and that it is an observable, proven fact that the theory of evolution perfectly describes is really not all that complicated.

The reason why people think it's complicated and why you still hear all those insane, fallacious "proofs" that evolution is wrong is not because the everyday people don't understand it, but because religious apologists (and the politicians they back) don't want people to understand them. Ken Ham (the founder of the creationist museum who just recently got obliterated by Bill Nye in a debate), Ray Comfort (the man who declared that the banana, a fruit that was bred to the point it didn't even resemble its original in any shape or form, was the proof of god as it is perfectly shaped for human consumption), or Eric Hovind (a demagogue who repeatedly got his arguments picked apart by elementary-schoolers during his "lectures").

These are the people, among others, who still advocate that the earth is young, that evolution and atheism is a religion, that evolution is random chance and is like a hurricane assembling a plane, and it doesn't matter how many times you correct them or disprove their claims. These disingenuous idiots are the reason why America is scientifically illiterate, not the faults of the education system. At least the schools don't misinform you in purpose and present fairy-tales as fact.

So, why do people listen to them instead of scientists? Because they have better PR. Their answers are more reassuring and easier to digest. For example, for me it is complete nonsense to even try to imagine that some unprovable deity created everything from nothing, partly because it's nonsense, and partly because I have read so many other creation stories that I really can't see how one can consider all those fiction but their particular one true. However, for someone who grew up in a religious community, believing that is part of who they are. They don't logically question it. Therefore, for them anything that doesn't involve said god is automatically suspicious and if said thing is complicated, like science, they rather shut it out than try to make sense of it themselves in fear that it would rock their comfortable world-view.

I mean, have you wondered why apologists only attack things like abiogenesis, evolution and the Big Band theory instead of, say, the germ theory that fuels their health-care or the electromagnetic theory that fuels the technology the use every day? They are science, use the same scientific method, and yet no one wants to "teach the controversy" about them or argues against them in public. Why? Because these are not directly against the world-view of these people while evolution and the others are, and this makes them uneasy as it breaks down their convenient little world where believing in an invisible being guarantees eternal bliss for you while all the people you don't like would go and burn in a fiery pit of pain.

And that is where apologists come in, people who use their false analogies and weasel-words and fallacies to "prove" that the scientific viewpoint is wrong, and people eat it all up since they are already used to believing in silly things in the same framework and for them it is still better than trying to get out and understand the scientific method and actually read up on it. It frankly disturbs me and makes me really sad.
 

w9496

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Does it even matter? Most people forget that stuff right after they take the test for them in high school. The average chum doesn't gives a fuck about evolution or the big bang theory because it's not necessary in their day to day lives. That doesn't make them stupid, but it means that they have different priorities.

The Earth orbiting the Sun question is rather embarrassing though. The other 2 were just belief question, but it's a cold hard fact that the Earth doesn't have a huge light source orbiting it.
 

Texas Joker 52

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Jun 25, 2011
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You know, this both baffles, and infuriates me.

What baffles me is the amount of people who didn't realize when they were asked this survey that the Earth revolves around our sun in, roughly, one years time. Not exactly a year of course, otherwise we wouldn't have Leap Years. Now, due to the way the Earth itself rotates, forming the 24 hour day cycle, it may APPEAR that the sun revolves around the Earth in a day, but that's looking at it from the wrong perspective.

What infuriates me is that they are treating evolution and the big bang as ironclad fact, instead of what they are, theories that, while they may have quite a bit of substantial evidence behind them, have been far from proven without a shadow of a doubt. The fact is, there's a lot about the universe we don't know, such as its creation, or where humanity came from. And religious beliefs that explain those origins are hardly incorrect or ignorant in and of themselves. They're simply different beliefs.

The fact that, even reading the first page of responses, so many people seem to equate religious beliefs to be the same as ignorance and stupidity, amazes me, particularly since it's wrong. It's thinking that that's ignorant, not to mention intolerant. The U.S. was founded on freedom of beliefs, people.
 

iseko

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First of all: With the "accept three facts" thing I posted. I don't agree with the logic BUT I have heard those arguments being raised against evolution and pro creationism. I'm not saying that every religious person reasons like this. It is just a small example of how religion can break the rules by which science works. (example being a key word)
BigTuk said:
iseko said:
I believe in evolution but the evidence is not overwhelming if you break the rules.
1) Accept for a fact: god exists
2) some biological mechanisms are to hard to explain with evolution (as far as I know flagella fall under this categorie. Random mutation is a bit hard to believe to explain this one for the moment). This indicates intelligent design.
3) Accept for a fact: god created fossils etc to confuse non believers.

Bam. Evolution has been disproven. Offcourse you have to accept a few facts with no scientific proof whatsoever. I believe thats what they call having faith...
Faith is not belief in the absence of facts, faith is the belief that the facts you have are correct. And the intellignt design thing can b pretty much torpedoed by one word. 'Appendix'. Well unless th one designing is a jerk thay enjoys watching th suffering of others...which would explain alot actually, like why testicles are where they are as opposed to you know buried deep and encased in bone...and the curious fact that just about everything with sharp teeth has it's head about crotch level with the average human male.
I'm not quite sure what you mean with those arguments. Sorry :/. But the appendix is a rudiment of older times. We don't use it anymore. The reason it is not yet 'selected out' of the human population is because: the smaller the appendix becomes (read: closer to being selected out) the higher the chance of appendicitis. Which can lead to death. So people with a smaller appendix had a tendency of dieing. Not because having a large appendix is beneficial in some way to your metabolism. But because having a small one is dangerous.

ryo02 said:
just want to point a few things out

(1)it's overwhelming compared to the evidence religion gives (magic man in the sky did it)
(2)"god created fossils to fool people"? so to prove god did it you also have to prove he/she/it is a dick?
(3)faith = "jump off a cliff you can fly I swear" that's "blind faith" real honest and true faith (see trust) allows and indeed welcomes questioning.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic or start an argument (full disclosure I'm an atheist and on evolution's side if you didn't guess)
I'm sort of an atheist. I don't believe in conventional religion at least. Havn't given it that much thought to be honest.
1) accept the fact that god exists. Sort of like the six axioma of math. There is no real proof. But you can see it all the time. Don't think or reason about it. Accept it. (not my way of life but it is for some people).
2)About the "god is a dick argument" -> Abraham and Isaac. God commanded Abraham to kill his own son to test his faith because he had a bet with the devil (Am I telling this right?). In the end he did not have to go through with it but still... it is a dick move. So yea... god is kind of a dick sometimes. For the rest: look in the beginning of this post.
3) not sure it works that way. :p

GrinningCat said:
Numbers 23:19 - "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

Proverbs 6:16-19 - "There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers."

If you accept for a fact that God would lie just to play mind games with people, that would make Him of the very abomination that He hates and also make Him a human. If He lies, He is human. If He is human, He is not a God. If He is not a God, then you can't accept for a fact that He exists as a God.

And I know that, personally, I expect more out of my Creator than being a petty liar who needs to use tricks to get His way. That sounds more like a devil's modus operandi.
I'm not trying to be an ass here. Like I say in the beginning of this post -> I've heard religious people use those very arguments. About god not lying and such I refer again to Abraham and Isaac. Offcourse you could say: that story is pulled completely out of context. True enough. But the same might but said now. Maybe he is lying to us for reasons that are unknown. Maybe he has another bet with the devil that if humankind gets a ton of false proof, then maybe they won't believe in him anymore (in which case the devil is winning). I don't believe in god. I don't believe in the reasoning that has been presented by some of those religious people. But I can understand the logic behind it. You don't have to agree with something in order to understand it.

Yopaz said:
I long for the day when people stop confusing random mutation with evolution. It's an extremely minor part of evolution in the big picture. EXTREMELY minor. It's one of the mechanisms that give rise to variation. I can understand that people don't believe in evolution because people who are certain that they understand it but don't explain it wrong and make it sound illogical. I have studied evolutionary biology at a university level. That was when it dawned upon me that I never have understood evolution and I probably never will because it's infinitely more complicated than I imagined.
Congratulations, you want a cookie? I've studied evolution as well. A part of it at least. To say I know everything about it would be extremely arrogant. However, I recognize the fact that:
A) it is a complex problem
B) a lot of variables come into play
C) random mutation is at the very basis of it

Yes there is more to it then random mutation. But have you ever heard of the joke: "A farmer a cow and a physicist?" We tend to oversimplify complex problems in order to first understand them and then explain them to others. Do you have ANY idea how long the post would have to be in order to COMPLETELY explain evolution? Taking into account that some people around here have not seen any biology in years? Evolutionary models based on the likelyhood of certain mutations over others? Chaos theory and its finer details? The environmental conditions that allowed the first organic molecules to be created? Followed by the physical and chemical principles that allowed a first "life" like organism to be created? Speciation, divergence and convergent evolution? The fact that nature has found the same solution multiple times? The list goes on and on. So yes, let us accept the fact that it is a little more complex then random mutation. Let us also accept the fact that you can write numerous books on this topic. And let us accept the fact that I have no bloody interest in writing that post on this site. The main reason being that I have forgotten more about this stuff then most people know about it. That part is not arrogance it is a fact. And I dare you to explain everything we know about the process of evolution without looking up anything about it. You could say that I could have expanded on the topic a little more, explaining the very basics of the process beyond random mutation. But what would really be the point? If people want to know more -> read a bloody book.

Lastly: my example is STILL valid (somewhat). Irreducible complexity. Look it up. It means that some biological processes are to complex to explain by means of evolution. Which makes it an argument for intelligent design and in some cases even creationism (i'm not saying it is a good argument). The flagella is an example of such a process. I say somewhat valid because in my previous post I was too lazy to do some research about it. As it so happens, there has been some progress on this topic since last I heard of it (another prime example of how I am not all knowing). There are a few hypothesis on how the flagella could have been created through evolution. Allthough the theories are very vague.
This would be an example why I believe in science. It is not because we have not explained something YET that we will never be able to do so. Everything can someday be explained through science if given enough time. I may be wrong in this belief but it is what I belief none the less.

Disclaimer: english is by far my native language and I could not be bothered with proof reading this entire text for every little detail. I hope native english speaking people will understand.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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cynicalsaint1 said:
I find the detail of the survey a little sketchy.
2.2k *IS* a small sample size for a nation of over 300 million - as in about .0007% of the US was surveyed.
Also without any kind of demographic information about who was responding its pretty dangerous to make broad conclusions based on it.
With a sample size of 2200 in a population of 300.000.000 with 99% confidence level (1% chance that your results are completrely bogus, acceptable in all statistics) using standart sampling formula i calculate confidence interval of 2.75. This means that the results have a 2.75% variation. For example, this means that in reality between 22,25% and 27.75% of Americans dont know the earth revolves around the sun. It could be any number between, but even if we take the most optimistic approach thats still 22%+.
Sampling is fine here, organizations like WHO consider 2k sample size enough for all large countries in the world.
Now whether sample was picked discriminatory or not (like for example only sampling white people)

Megazuurkool said:
I am not going into the issue whether the universe was created by an explosion or whether we humans developed from animals, but those people did not believe that. Surely they knew there were people who believed it to have happened that way, but if you don't believe in this theory, of course you'll fill in that it isn't correct. There are a lot of people who don't support the evolution theory, big bang, my ancestors were apes etc.. and if that's what you believe you are not stupid for saying 'no' to the whole theory thingy.

I'm so sorry for my English.
It does not matter what they believe. They have to know the truth. I can believe i am an unicorn but that does not make it true. I can pick an answer wrongly because of it, but that still does not make it true. And if you know the truth and intentionally pick the wrong answer thats worse than stupid, thats maliciuos.

Zachary Amaranth said:
I've got a theory. It might be bunnies.
Bunnies aren?t just cute like everyone supposes. They got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses, and what?s with all the carrots!? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway!? Bunnies, bunnies, it must be bunnies!!

P.S. perfect reference.

Elfgore said:
The belief based questions, like the evolution and start of the universe, is not fair to ask. They answered wrong because they believe differently. That's just a low-blow.

Now the earth rotating question is inexcusable.
They are still wrong though, regardless of why they answered incorrectly.
 

GabeZhul

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Texas Joker 52 said:
You know, this both baffles, and infuriates me.

What baffles me is the amount of people who didn't realize when they were asked this survey that the Earth revolves around our sun in, roughly, one years time. Not exactly a year of course, otherwise we wouldn't have Leap Years. Now, due to the way the Earth itself rotates, forming the 24 hour day cycle, it may APPEAR that the sun revolves around the Earth in a day, but that's looking at it from the wrong perspective.
That's... not what the question was. You are confusing it with another survey mentioned in the thread. This one didn't ask about time.

What infuriates me is that they are treating evolution and the big bang as ironclad fact, instead of what they are, theories that, while they may have quite a bit of substantial evidence behind them, have been far from proven without a shadow of a doubt. The fact is, there's a lot about the universe we don't know, such as its creation, or where humanity came from. And religious beliefs that explain those origins are hardly incorrect or ignorant in and of themselves. They're simply different beliefs.
Because they are? Well, okay, the Big Bang theory is not so much, as it is a bit hard to create factually unquestionable models for an early universe where there was no time, therefore no cause and effect and therefore mostly unmodelable. But evolution?

Hell, evolution is the single most well-understood and proven scientific theory because it has been prodded over and over by religious zealots over 150 years for holes, and there aren't any. It is also repeatedly proven right by genetics, medicine, paleontology, archeology and many other disciplines. Saying that "it's just a theory" is just ignorant.

Let me put it this way: "evolution" is a fact. The "theory of evolution" is what describes said fact, just like how "gravity" is a fact and the theories relating to it (be it Newtonian or relativistic) are only its descriptions. Yes, I know this evolution/gravity comparison is like beating a dead horse, but if you happen to be bothered by it, then why the hell did you bring up the whole "theory" bullshit on the first place?

The fact that, even reading the first page of responses, so many people seem to equate religious beliefs to be the same as ignorance and stupidity, amazes me, particularly since it's wrong. It's thinking that that's ignorant, not to mention intolerant. The U.S. was founded on freedom of beliefs, people.
Two things here: Right, religious belief doesn't automatically mean ignorance. The religious have a higher chance of being ignorant thanks to upbringing, religious education and whatnot, but it is not an ironclad rule. One can be religious and intelligent just as one can be an atheist or agnostic and be stupid as a rock (I'm looking at you, new-age hippies.)
However, there is a good reason why scientific-minded people dislike the religious, and that is because the most ignorant ones have a record of trying to force their ignorance on others. I presume you have heard of the Intelligent Design debacle? When creationists tried to weasel their religious dogma into the school curriculum?

Scientist (and skeptics or other rational people) don't dislike the religious because of what they choose to believe in. We dislike them because they are trying to force their beliefs onto science, where it doesn't belong. I mean, I presume you would be outraged if people tried to force the clergy to teach the controversy in the church and preach about the big bang and evolution, right?
...
Well, that is not a good comparison, now that I think about it. I mean, that way you would at least get well-rounded and scientifically sound arguments. What the religious apologists have to offer most of the time are nothing more than fallacies and faulty logic.

So, in short: One can believe whatever they want and it is not an indication of their intelligence or ignorance. The problems begin when said beliefs are used to reject proven, working scientific facts on no ground or when belief tries to override science with unscientific dogma, which does lead to ignorance.
 

Megalodon

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iseko said:
The environmental conditions that allowed the first organic molecules to be created? Followed by the physical and chemical principles that allowed a first "life" like organism to be created?
Please don't bother with this fallacy, abiogenesis (what you're talking about here) is separate from evolution. This is like saying an architect is incompetent because he cannot design a working plane.

Lastly: my example is STILL valid (somewhat). Irreducible complexity. Look it up. It means that some biological processes are to complex to explain by means of evolution. Which makes it an argument for intelligent design and in some cases even creationism (i'm not saying it is a good argument). The flagella is an example of such a process. I say somewhat valid because in my previous post I was too lazy to do some research about it. As it so happens, there has been some progress on this topic since last I heard of it (another prime example of how I am not all knowing). There are a few hypothesis on how the flagella could have been created through evolution. Allthough the theories are very vague.
This would be an example why I believe in science. It is not because we have not explained something YET that we will never be able to do so. Everything can someday be explained through science if given enough time. I may be wrong in this belief but it is what I belief none the less.
Except that every 'example' of irreducible complexity I've ever heard can have and does have an evolutionary explanation, for your example:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663-evolution-myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex.html

or another one

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html#bactflag


I don't know what you're arguing for here to be honest. Intelligent Design has been dis proven, it is bullshit. Any journal worth its name won't publish ID, hell even the US court ruled that ID is not science (almost a decade ago).
 

kael013

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[quote/]
Did the universe begin with a huge explosion? Only 39% answered yes correctly.
Did human beings, as we know them today, develop from earlier species of animals? Only 48% correctly said yes.
Do antibiotics kill viruses? Only 51% correctly answered no.
[/quote]

1: That one is still constantly revised by the scientific community. The version that was taught in all my science classes (only 5 years ago) is now completely irrelevant.
2: No points for including a religious question. We still haven't found the "missing link" and while plants and animals mutate and adapt to new environments over generations, evolution isn't scientific law yet. EDIT: after reading some earlier posts, please don't jump me for this. I believe in using science to explain religion, not using religion to substitute science.
3: As an American working in the medical community, all I can do is facepalm at this.

OT: I, I have no words for this. I've already hated my country's low education standard, but I didn't know it was, statistically speaking, [i/]THIS[/i] bad.
 

iseko

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Megalodon said:
iseko said:
The environmental conditions that allowed the first organic molecules to be created? Followed by the physical and chemical principles that allowed a first "life" like organism to be created?
Please don't bother with this fallacy, abiogenesis (what you're talking about here) is separate from evolution. This is like saying an architect is incompetent because he cannot design a working plane.

Lastly: my example is STILL valid (somewhat). Irreducible complexity. Look it up. It means that some biological processes are to complex to explain by means of evolution. Which makes it an argument for intelligent design and in some cases even creationism (i'm not saying it is a good argument). The flagella is an example of such a process. I say somewhat valid because in my previous post I was too lazy to do some research about it. As it so happens, there has been some progress on this topic since last I heard of it (another prime example of how I am not all knowing). There are a few hypothesis on how the flagella could have been created through evolution. Allthough the theories are very vague.
This would be an example why I believe in science. It is not because we have not explained something YET that we will never be able to do so. Everything can someday be explained through science if given enough time. I may be wrong in this belief but it is what I belief none the less.
Except that every 'example' of irreducible complexity I've ever heard can have and does have an evolutionary explanation, for your example:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663-evolution-myths-the-bacterial-flagellum-is-irreducibly-complex.html

or another one

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html#bactflag


I don't know what you're arguing for here to be honest. Intelligent Design has been dis proven, it is bullshit. Any journal worth its name won't publish ID, hell even the US court ruled that ID is not science (almost a decade ago).
Abiogenesis and the following formation of the first cells is what I was referring to. When do we talk of organic molecules and when do we talk about life? Spherical formation of lipids with organic molecules entrapped? Precursor nucleotides that can pass the spheroid membrane as monomers but cannot leave once they start polymerizing (i.e. formation of first DNA). With the handy benefit of them being able to polymerize without the need of DNA polymerase or any other enzymes. Bigger spheres that absorb (i.e. eat) smaller spheres. Big spheres that split up into two smaller ones (reproduce). Thats what I was talking about in that first quote. You'll have to excuse my simplistic representation of a very complex model in advance. And this is important because the beginning of life is the beginning of evolution.
I like that analogy about the architect though.

I'm not for intelligent design. Nor do I agree with irreducible complexity. But theories are not facts. One theory does not proof make. Nor does it disprove another theory. Allthough I am a big fan of occams razor which is why intelligent design sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

And because the US court has said so it is deemed true? What I am arguing for is:
1) people have a right to their own believes whatever they may be (as long as they don't use violence to enforce those beliefs).
2) just because you do not agree does not mean they are automatically wrong. Even piling on 'proof' of evolution does not mean you are right. There have been theoretical models in evolution that later on have proven to be wrong: the origin of mitochondria in cells for example. (and offcourse replaced by a more accurate version but that is not my point just now).
3) complex problems are represented in a simple manner every day. If you want to explain the entire process of evolution every bloody time something vaguely comes in contact with the subject then go ahead. No scientist I know will ever concern himself with doing so. Random mutation is a small aspect and yet the very foundation of evolution. There is no point in argueing about that. Without random mutation -> no evolution what so ever. Because nothing would ever change.
It's like asking how a car works and just explaining how the engine works. Sure: an engine does not a car make but without it you're not gonna get very far are you? One could argue that it is the most essential part of your car. Eventhough without wheels, transmission, steering wheel,... it is not going to drive very far.

You could say that I am on your side. I believe evolution is correct. For the large part at least. I just hate the fact that people need to feel entitled to say: "I know more so you are both wrong and an idiot" and "you believe in god so you are an idiot because there is no proof". Believers can't prove god exists (not by means that I would accept anyways) but neither can we disprove him.
A small analogy would be gravity. We all know it exists but we can't prove it since we can observe the effects but not gravity itself. For me personally this is more a matter of semantics. Probably why the analogy is flawed but I hope it illustrates my point.

Ps: I'm starting to like this argument so don't interpret this as me bashing you.
 

Shymer

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Feb 23, 2011
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John Keefer said:
Does the Earth go around the Sun or does the Sun go around the Earth?


It makes sense to me that the relative movement of the Earth and the Sun is determined by the gravitic influence they have over each other and, from a certain point of view, you could argue that they orbit a point determined by the relative mass of the two. So neither statement above is exclusively true. You might say "they don't orbit each other, they orbit a point between them". True enough that the "point" they revolve around is inside the sun because of the vast disparity of mass between the two bodies, but I think it is simplistic to say "The Earth goes around the sun" and perhaps better to say "If we consider the Earth and Sun as a simple two-body system, then that system rotates around a point inside the radius of the sun at a radial distance from the centre of the sun which is a function of the relative forces the bodies exert on one another."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Orbit4.gif

Even the idea of rotation in a simple two body system is a simplification of what we observe in the universe because there are not just two bodies, and every body is in apparent motion depending on your frame of reference. When do we mean by "go around".

The question is simplistic and inadequate and offers two answers - neither of which appears correct to me. Any answer will be based on terms that are ill-defined, probably based on a simplistic mathematical model.

So... which box shall I tick on this questionnaire?

Scientific knowledge is like pass-the-parcel. As we continue to play the game, we unwrap layer after layer and believe we perceive a better approximation of the real shape of the thing hidden underneath. However I would not want to deride those who have decided to stop playing for some reason. I might feel superior for having unwrapped more layers than them, I laugh at their apparent ignorance. In truth any smug intellectual superiority is short-lived when you take off another layer and all of the beliefs and truths collapse under the light of new evidence.

If there are two people and one believes the sun goes around the earth and the other believes the earth goes round the sun - and they are both wrong - does the magnitude of that wrongness really matter? Is there such a thing as being better because your approximation is somehow "closer" to "reality".

In Chemistry you learn that H2O is a water molecule. Then you learn about valency. Then you learn about isotopes. You learn about weak and strong bonds of different types. Then you learn about orbitals. Then you learn about energy levels. Then you learn about uncertainty, and things we have not explained yet, but we go looking for subatomic particles that we think should be there, but we have not detected... and so the game goes on.

I wonder now if I am any better off having spent the time and effort to learn the things I know and sneering at people/countries/cultures I perceive as more ignorant and railing against an array of perceived reasons why that ignorance is perpetuated.

Perhaps I would have been better off using that time making other people happier. I think the wonder that I feel when I unwrap another layer of the parcel is something that has made me happy - and I would love others to feel that too.
 

RyQ_TMC

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VanQ said:
Nothing infuriates me more than when people say something like "Well, evolution is just a theory!", completely oblivious to the meaning of the word theory in a scientific context. That the word theory means something that can be observed and reproduced, such as evolution.
Actually, there is one thing that does infuriate me more, and that's when the "evolution is just a theory!" is countered with "so is gravity, go jump off a cliff", because it also showcases a lack of understanding what a theory is, except it's laden with arrogance and that weird belief modern world seems to have that if you're smug and condescending, that means you're smart.

Also in this thread: People saying "hurr, religious ppl are DUMB!", then making equally incorrect statements (e.g. "the only treatment against viruses is vaccination").

And in the OP: complaining about popular misconceptions by referencing another popular misconception ("the Dark Ages").

OK, I've vented. Now to the actual news item:

1) I'm pretty sure that one is still being refined and I think the current consensus makes the Big Bang to be less "explosion-y" than it was originally proposed. So it's more "it's currently taught in schools" than "it's correct, no question about it". The "wrong" answers might actually be a result of people taking an interest in science and hearing how the old Big Bang model is not considered to be correct anymore.
2) I already wrote a lengthy post about this one here on the Escapist forums some years ago, but here's the short version: The strong creationist lobby is mostly an American thing (I think S. Korea and Australia have that problem to some extent as well). And it's not even about religion in general, it's about the specific kind of Protestantism that's strong in those countries. HOWEVER, the way the theory of evolution has been dogmatized recently created an opening for the "stick it to the man" school of anti-evolutionism. The way it looks is that creationists are the ones giving arguments - wrong arguments, but who is Joe Blow to know? - and "evolutionists" being the ones shouting "No discussion! No debate! This is the one truth and everyone who questions it is an idiot!" See, it's really easy for a creationist to take the original edition of Origin of the Species and point out all the things it was wrong about. And this is understandable. Darwin and his colleagues didn't have access to a lot of data we do. The theory took decades to reach a mostly correct form. It's still being ironed out around the edges. But the narrative presenting all of Darwin's opponents from the start as ignorant religious zealots, and making Origin the Holy Book of Atheism makes it easy to undermine it to a largely ignorant population.
3) The "antibiotics kill viruses", while one of my most hated popular misconceptions (what with me being a virologist and all), is widely present even among health professionals, who really should know better. And yes, it's strong in Sweden as well. Hell, I recently had a neurologist straight out asking me to explain to her what's the difference between a virus and a bacterium. So I wouldn't blame any American-specific factors for that.

That "Sun revolving around the Earth" is the only one I can't offer any defense for. Although I would like to point out that Copernicus also gets the Darwin treatment, i.e. the common narrative presenting him as Completely Correct and his opponents as ignorant religious zealots, while in fact the Copernican model wasn't much simpler than Ptolemaean (and it was mostly contested on scientific grounds, not religious) and it took Kepler and Galileo to develop it into the heliocentric model we ascribe to Copernicus.
 

Fdzzaigl

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Mar 31, 2010
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Honestly, it's not only America (and this is a European speaking).

Here in Belgium I've seen people display appalling ignorance when it comes to basic science and awareness of our place in the universe, even people who are otherwise fairly smart and savvy.
In college (non-science major) I saw classmates who thought that the solar system = the universe / milky way, I've heard several who thought that the Earth revolved around the sun in one day. Almost no one knew that the Earth was the third planet from the sun.

That of course has to do with our lacking astronomy education, to be exact: there is none. During all my highschool physics lessons, we never really talked about the universe and our position in it. The lessons were always in favour of local examples, like the behaviour of gasses, lenses, etc. While those things are also important that still leaves a gaping hole in your worldview.

And having that correct worldview should actually be very important for our modern society.