About 25% of Americans Don't Know the Earth Revolves Around the Sun

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QUINTIX

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May 16, 2008
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So a headline like "1 in 4 Americans doesn't know Earth circles sun" is a kind of headline designed to attract a certain crowd. You know the ones I?m talking about: the ones who think they're just better than you, but at the same time are so insecure about it they're itching for a debate, after which victory will be claimed regardless of events.
I can't better a single word from this [http://www.redstate.com/2014/02/18/nsf-science-poll-americans-compartmentalize-science/]
Edit: Just ignore the patronizing ads. Even the creator of the website complains about them.

Further edit/somewhat related. My father was an atheist as a teenager, but then an elder challenged the confident young atheist about what came before the big bang.
He's now a military chaplain and teaching elder at my church
 

DirgeNovak

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Jul 23, 2008
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Where are the other six questions? None of the sources talk about those. And two out of the four questions that are discussed in articles are basically faith-based. While I still find it appalling that people reject scientific discoveries because of some old book, identifying the "no" answers to the evolution and big bang questions as wrong is disingenuous. A lot of those people are likely aware of what science says, they just go wih their faith.
The Earth rotation and antibiotics questions are fair game, though. Those people are fucking stupid.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Para199x said:
Actually the point is that evolution is a documented phenomenon which has been observed. Natural selection is a theory which attempts to explain it. An equivalent to your arguement would be to say that motion is a theory, it is not, it is a phenomenon which we require a theory to describe.
Cite any kind of source that doesn't regard a scientific theory as the most reliable form of scientific knowledge. You are making claims without sources that contradict other sources. You can contradict other sources, but only if you have more than "No it is like this because I said so!".

An alternative source would be Futyama's Evolution. Evolution is described as a theory on page 1 (not counting index and preface).

Evolution is a theory BECAUSE it has been well documented and observed. Because that's what theories mean in science. While we're at it natural selection isn't a theory used to explain evolution. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of evolution, but so is mutation, genetic drift, kin selection and migration just to mention a few.

So no. Evolution is a theory, natural selection is not. If you want to use the layman's definition of a theory go on, but don't think you're correct. You have also managed to simplify evolution to the point where you're wrong so I wouldn't speak up too much about evolution either if I were you.
 

punipunipyo

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Earth goes around the sun, I get, this is FACT we have been LOOKING AT IT FOR A LONG TIME, this we KNOW... and yes... sad that not everyone know this... however...

"*Did the universe begin with a huge explosion? Only 39% answered [yes correctly]."
WOE!~ are those questions suggesting the bigbang "theory" a "fact"? like we time traveled and saw it happened?


*Did human beings, as we know them today, develop from earlier species of animals? Only 48% [correctly said yes].
Since when did Evolution been "completely proven"? last time I check... missing link is still.... well... missing?

Who ever made this 2 questions needs to re-evaluate their understanding of "Scientific Observation", and the meaning behind "Theory"... very dis-respectful, and intruding...
 

black_knight1337

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Sunrider84 said:
Mhmm, there's still the differing opinions there though. Which is my whole point. Sure, the majority agree that at this stage evolution is a fact but the majority has been known to be wrong many times in the past.

I also recommend checking out AronRa on youtube. His focus is on biology, but he touches on various other things that concern both evolution and religion as well. I'd link you to one of his longer videos, but chances are you (and most people) would ignore 10+ minute videos outright, so I'll take my chances with a three minute one instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmuLxPklXrc

It is part of a longer video, if I'm not mistaken, but I can't remember which one it is. If I knew, I'd link that video instead, because this is a mirror upload, as you can tell from the title. His account is just named AronRa.
Thanks for the link, and feel free to link longer relevant videos. As long as their not hours long I'll probably watch most if not all of it.

Zachary Amaranth said:
Except you quote mined. Didn't even include the full sentence, let alone the whole context.
Yep! All the context of it is lost from the omission of "In the strictest sense then". /s
All the context of it is there. It's not referring to anything outside of that quote without explaining it within. False accusations like that are just downright insulting.

Loki_The_Good said:
You'd think so but Descartes actually found away around that in his meditation on what we can truly know. That part really hurt my head so I hope I'm explaining this right but basically the deceiver god confuses your brain so that your intended definition of one plus one does not equate your definition of two but you are confused to believe it does. A simplified example would be that when you think of 1+1 you say it equals 2 however your mind has been messed with in such a way that every time you think of 2 you instead picture it as 3 and are made unaware of this difference. There are psychological cases that mirror this kind of error so it's more then hypothetical the brain can in "fact" do this. In this way from your perception 1+1=2 is actually false as the one definition of 1+1 does not equal your other definition which you perceive as 2 but is in fact 3. Therefore you do not truly know for certain what 1+1 equals and are therefore unable to call it a definitive fact or truth. Edit for some more clarification: Basically you would think 1+1=2 but then go on to say 2+2=6 without noticing. Of course in actual practice you would see it with the same certain truth that you see 2+2=4 I'm just going from the trickster god's perceptive to make the error obvious.
Ah ok, makes sense. Wouldn't it still, technically, be factual though? Because when it comes to a fact it's not the subject nor the definition that matters, it's the link between them. So even if you're actually seeing 2 which is actually called eight, as 6 and you're calling it six. It'd still be a fact because you're still making the same link between the two.

The above is one of the primary reasons why I both love and hate philosophy. They really come up with some head scratchers. Look up Descartes 1st and 2nd meditations if I explained it poorly and you're curious. It might be a little less obtuse and would be a more accurate explanation.
Thanks for the referral, I'll have a look at them later today. Certainly some interesting stuff and I though you explained it quite well. You've also got a pretty fitting username :p

That's not to say you should go about your life doubting that kind of thing just that doubt can exist for everything so it's more a matter of how little doubt is necessary before you approach it with the certainty of truth. (My own personal yard stick is about 99.5 percent. The basic outlines of evolution easily fall within this likelihood.
Of course, but it's fair enough. All just differing opinions on the definition, and I guess by that scale I'd probably be going for something like 99.9%.
 

Para199x

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Yopaz said:
Para199x said:
Actually the point is that evolution is a documented phenomenon which has been observed. Natural selection is a theory which attempts to explain it. An equivalent to your arguement would be to say that motion is a theory, it is not, it is a phenomenon which we require a theory to describe.
Cite any kind of source that doesn't regard a scientific theory as the most reliable form of scientific knowledge. You are making claims without sources that contradict other sources. You can contradict other sources, but only if you have more than "No it is like this because I said so!".

An alternative source would be Futyama's Evolution. Evolution is described as a theory on page 1 (not counting index and preface).

Evolution is a theory BECAUSE it has been well documented and observed. Because that's what theories mean in science. While we're at it natural selection isn't a theory used to explain evolution. Natural selection is one of the mechanisms of evolution, but so is mutation, genetic drift, kin selection and migration just to mention a few.

So no. Evolution is a theory, natural selection is not. If you want to use the layman's definition of a theory go on, but don't think you're correct. You have also managed to simplify evolution to the point where you're wrong so I wouldn't speak up too much about evolution either if I were you.
Loki_The_Good said:
black_knight1337 said:
Loki_The_Good said:
Actually yes there is a chance. The most classic example is Descartes trickster god where an all powerful entity is deliberately misinforming your senses to make you believe a false reality for it's own amusement. The Matrix is a more contemporary example. The odds of this being the case are pathetically low but they exist. That's my point though when those odds reach a certain degree of probability one can safely ignore the alternatives. This is what is known as "facts" though by strict definition nothing is fact except maybe the ascertainment of one's own awareness: "I think therefore I am." Glad to open your eyes.
Sure, I'll give you that one. For all we know everything could be an illusion. However, even if this is true, things like mathematics and linguistics still hold. 1+1=2 is always going to remain a fact because it's something that we've defined.
You'd think so but Descartes actually found away around that in his meditation on what we can truly know. That part really hurt my head so I hope I'm explaining this right but basically the deceiver god confuses your brain so that your intended definition of one plus one does not equate your definition of two but you are confused to believe it does. A simplified example would be that when you think of 1+1 you say it equals 2 however your mind has been messed with in such a way that every time you think of 2 you instead picture it as 3 and are made unaware of this difference. There are psychological cases that mirror this kind of error so it's more then hypothetical the brain can in "fact" do this. In this way from your perception 1+1=2 is actually false as the one definition of 1+1 does not equal your other definition which you perceive as 2 but is in fact 3. Therefore you do not truly know for certain what 1+1 equals and are therefore unable to call it a definitive fact or truth. Edit for some more clarification: Basically you would think 1+1=2 but then go on to say 2+2=6 without noticing. Of course in actual practice you would see it with the same certain truth that you see 2+2=4 I'm just going from the trickster god's perceptive to make the error obvious.

The above is one of the primary reasons why I both love and hate philosophy. They really come up with some head scratchers. Look up Descartes 1st and 2nd meditations if I explained it poorly and you're curious. It might be a little less obtuse and would be a more accurate explanation.

That's not to say you should go about your life doubting that kind of thing just that doubt can exist for everything so it's more a matter of how little doubt is necessary before you approach it with the certainty of truth. (My own personal yard stick is about 99.5 percent. The basic outlines of evolution easily fall within this likelihood.

You are conflating theories of evolution with the phenomenon of evolution. I'm not saying that Evolution by natural selection is not a theory. I'm saying (taking a different example where terms aren't so usually conflated) that it is a phenomenon that massive objects fall towards each other, Newton's gravity and general relativity are theories to explain the phenomenon. Similarly evolution is an observed phenomenon (species HAVE been observed to change) and natural selection is a theory to explain it.
 

Bebus

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I don't know if it's been mentioned, but perhaps Americans can take comfort in the fact that Sherlock Holmes famously didn't know that the Earth revolves around the sun, claiming that although interesting the knowledge has absolutely no practical application to his life and as such should be forgotten for something more useful.

I'm not quite sure people who don't know this fact have the same reasoning, though.
 

Sunrider

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Nov 16, 2009
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black_knight1337 said:
Mhmm, there's still the differing opinions there though. Which is my whole point. Sure, the majority agree that at this stage evolution is a fact but the majority has been known to be wrong many times in the past.
There will always be dissenting opinions, even among the scientific community. The wonderful thing about science is that the scientific community is always trying to prove itself wrong, for the sake of truth. Should it ever be proven wrong, they (and I) will change our opinions, "beliefs", if you will, accordingly. Opinions doesn't really matter here, at least not to me. All that matters is what the evidence points at.
"If you can't show it, you don't know it".

Anyway, I believe I've said just about all I can really say on this particular part of the topic, and I've no desire to just go over the same points again. I'm sure you agree with me on that. It was fun though! Have a nice day! =)
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Para199x said:
You are conflating theories of evolution with the phenomenon of evolution. I'm not saying that Evolution by natural selection is not a theory. I'm saying (taking a different example where terms aren't so usually conflated) that it is a phenomenon that massive objects fall towards each other, Newton's gravity and general relativity are theories to explain the phenomenon. Similarly evolution is an observed phenomenon (species HAVE been observed to change) and natural selection is a theory to explain it.
Well, give me a source for this. I have given you two sources and asked you for a source to back up your stance. Give me a source and I will agree that you're right.

Also give me a source that says natural selection is a theory to explain evolution rather than one of the mechanisms that drive evolution. Hint: you won't find one.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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black_knight1337 said:
Mhmm, there's still the differing opinions there though. Which is my whole point. Sure, the majority agree that at this stage evolution is a fact but the majority has been known to be wrong many times in the past.
Overwhelming majority based on compelling evidence.

"But people have been wrong before, so they might again" is already a weak argument, but I'm curious. Do you also apply these standards to other things? Do you argue against the existence of germs, a round earth, and a heliocentric solar system? There are dissenters on all points. And after all, science has been wrong before....

Yep! All the context of it is lost from the omission of "In the strictest sense then".
And the rest of the quote explaining how this might not be the best counter-argument for you. Since you've obviously read the passage, it's safe to assume that you're being deliberately dishonest.

It's also more than worth noting that we have many things that are both law and theory. Anybody who made the argument, as this biologist did, that gravity cannot both be law and theory, would be laughed out of any reputable locale and labeled an idiot. Law and theory don't approach things in the same fashion. A scientifically literate person should know the difference.

But hey, if you snip out the context and ignore the actual issues with the claim, it's totally a point in your favour.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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punipunipyo said:
missing link is still.... well... missing?
Not sure if serious.

But if you are, try googling transitional fossils. There are numerous "missing links," and every time a new one is discovered creationists shift the goalposts.
 

Baron Teapot

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People are stupid.

I don't mean this in a snarky, mean way. These sorts of studies are ultimately fairly useless, not in the least because the questions often have very little to do with these peoples' lives. Unless you're a physicist or astronomer, why do you even need to know anything about planetary orbits?

We don't need to navigate by looking at the stars anymore; very few of us even catch fish and hunt for food, and thus we don't need to know about those sorts of things. Also, you can be incredibly smart, but still easily caught up: if I were to ask many of you guys what cows drink, for instance, I bet a lot of you would say "milk" without hesitation.

But do cows really drink milk? No. No, they do not.

Ordinary people cannot compete in the scientific arena, which is wonderful: we'd make zero progress if the dumb masses needed to be included. Imagine it - endless cries of "it's just a theory", my God, I'm so glad those idiots are kept out of it...

A person is smart. People are stupid. That's the way we are and I don't really mind one bit. However, one thing that does annoy me is deliberate ignorance and arrogance about being ignorant. Fortunately, intelligence is malleable and increases with effort. Like your body becomes leaner and more athletic with physical exercise, studying improves the mind.

Intelligence is often seen as a binary trait: you either have it, or you don't. But it's neither: it's something you need to continuously work at, and the people who're smartest never stop pouring effort into becoming smarter, 'cause as I'm sure we all know, there's no such thing as being too smart. :p

(Hah, CAPTCHA was "vogon poetry"! I love The Hitchhiker's Guide.)
 

black_knight1337

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Overwhelming majority based on compelling evidence.

"But people have been wrong before, so they might again" is already a weak argument, but I'm curious. Do you also apply these standards to other things? Do you argue against the existence of germs, a round earth, and a heliocentric solar system? There are dissenters on all points. And after all, science has been wrong before....
No point arguing with absurdity...

And the rest of the quote explaining how this might not be the best counter-argument for you. Since you've obviously read the passage, it's safe to assume that you're being deliberately dishonest.
So him saying that you can argue the evolution is a fact when used as supporting evidence for a hypothesis is vital context that I'm deliberately leaving out to mislead people? I don't know how you can even think that. The whole quote (including the referenced part) is along the lines of "You can argue X but I think Y for Z reasons". Omitting the "You can argue X" part doesn't change the context in any way at all. It's not even that relevant to the discussion because we're only looking at the quote to see what his view on it is, not what he says other people can do. It's no different to omitting something along the lines of "But feel free to argue otherwise".

It's also more than worth noting that we have many things that are both law and theory. Anybody who made the argument, as this biologist did, that gravity cannot both be law and theory, would be laughed out of any reputable locale and labeled an idiot. Law and theory don't approach things in the same fashion. A scientifically literate person should know the difference.

But hey, if you snip out the context and ignore the actual issues with the claim, it's totally a point in your favour.
You mean the same people that say that, in that context, law and theory are the same thing, just a different points of the scale? Because after all, 'theories' are just 'hypotheses' that have gone through rigorous testing with 'facts' being further along than that.
 

Pheo1386

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Dec 30, 2009
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Is this really about failure in the American education system? I only ask as there are a fair few over there who are aware of the scientific evidence but choose to believe the more faith-dependent origin myths. Could it be that the people who answered incorrectly did so as a show of their own faith?

Also, as I'm sure any good scientist would agree, 22,000 people out of 313.9 million makes for a sample of 0.007%, nowhere near enough to make a valid conclusion that 25% of Americans don't know the earth revolves around the sun.

Don't get me wrong, it would be funny if it was true, but as a physicist (who lives in Ireland - no love of America here) I can't really say the title of this thread this can be presented as fact.........
 

Hawk eye1466

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My first thought was to say, sure why not I'd believe we're that stupid but then I remembered, America is a really big country and not everyone is a Rhodes scholar so my question is where did they take this survey? Because that really does matter, asking at Yale will get different results than asking in Lousiana. And I'm not saying Lousiana is stupid just there are some ignorant people who live in the middle of no where and the south has a lot more space so it's easier to be secluded from the world.
 

Para199x

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Yopaz said:
Para199x said:
You are conflating theories of evolution with the phenomenon of evolution. I'm not saying that Evolution by natural selection is not a theory. I'm saying (taking a different example where terms aren't so usually conflated) that it is a phenomenon that massive objects fall towards each other, Newton's gravity and general relativity are theories to explain the phenomenon. Similarly evolution is an observed phenomenon (species HAVE been observed to change) and natural selection is a theory to explain it.
Well, give me a source for this. I have given you two sources and asked you for a source to back up your stance. Give me a source and I will agree that you're right.

Also give me a source that says natural selection is a theory to explain evolution rather than one of the mechanisms that drive evolution. Hint: you won't find one.
Yes you are correct I can't find a source to explain the that the description of a mechanism that causes a phenomenon is called a theory because I have no idea where to find such an elementary piece of information.

As for the fact that evolution is an observed PHENOMENON a thing that HAPPENS which we need to describe the mechanism for with a THEORY here are a few from spending 2 seconds with google:

http://cogprints.org/6605/ : "Scientists still think that biological evolution is driven by the process named natural selection. Perhaps this 19th century notion was indeed a revolutionary idea at the time when it has been introduced. However, now it seems that natural selection hypothesis most probably is wrong. It does not explain, above all, why biological organization arise in the course of evolution. I show, on a rather abstract level of consideration, that exists another explanation why this intriguing phenomenon - life evolution - take place. Here it is argued that biological organization is solely a product of self-replication."

http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.4125

http://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/life-sciences/evolutionary-biology/evolution-anisogamy-fundamental-phenomenon-underlying-sexual-selection : notice that evolution is spoke of as a fact and the questions are about how.

Some observation evidence of the existence of the process of evolution. An observed process is the definition of a phenomenon: http://bit.ly/1jR0Cnw
 

Suhi89

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Ok so I've read about half of the comments here, and I feel like now is the right time to write my first post after being a long time lurker. To make my credentials clear, I have a Masters degree in physics from a good British university so I (should) know more about many of these topics than the majority, although I hope no one takes this as an argument from authority.

Firstly, on the questions. If I were asked whether the universe started with a big explosion, I would have to say no. The Big Bang really refers to the expansion of spacetime and wasn't really an explosion as most would understand it. It was poorly worded and you may well have got people answering no who understand this distinction and who thought that the question was trying to catch out this common misconception of what the Big Bang is.

Does the Earth orbit the Sun? Well, kind of. If you had a 2 body Earth-Sun system, both bodies would orbit around the centre of mass of the whole system, which happens to be quite close to the centre of the Sun. As it is, it's even more complex than that because of the rest of the matter in the solar system. However, unless you're deliberately being facetious you'd answer this questions correctly in the survey.

As to the definition of theory, this is butchered by nearly everyone. A theory isn't something that might be right but is uncertain. It also isn't, as many scientifically minded people like to suggest, something that's very strongly supported by the available evidence. This wouldn't explain purely mathematical theories, such as set theory or group theory, which have no "evidence" as such. It also doesn't explain something like Newton's theory of Gravitation, which is known to be incorrect, but is still a perfectly valid theory. Or the various mutually incompatible string theories which are all valid as theories, but have essentially zero evidentiary evidence.

A theory is essentially just a framework of axioms, or rules, that are used to make our lives easier. In science, theories tend to be used to try and explain the world as we see it. The axioms usually come after some observations but can then be used to predict future, as yet unencountered events. So Newton's theory of gravitation is based on the axiom that any two massive bodies will feel a force of attraction that is proportional to the product of the masses of the two bodies and inversely proportional to the square of their separation. This is a perfectly good theory and asking whether it's right or wrong is the wrong question.The question is, is it useful? The answer is, yes, in many circumstances, it's extremely useful, so we use it, even though we know it's limited to slow moving, medium sized bodies. Einsteins theory of gravity is based on different axioms (too complicated to properly discuss in a comments section) that more accurately describe the universe but this too has limitations.

It should be noted that Einstein's theory of gravity gets the same results as Newton's for most everyday calculations. Newton wasn't completely wrong, his theory has great predictive value. I strongly recommend Asimov's Relativity of Wrong.

Sorry for the length, and if anyone disagrees with my take on what a theory is, let me know. I haven't given this comment a huge amount of thought. I might comment on the evolution and Big Bang questions (particularly the latter) in more detail later, especially if anyone would like to know very briefly why Physicists accept the Big Bang theory (essentially) unreservedly)

TLDR: The questions are poorly worded and most people don't really understand what a theory is, although creationists must have had the trite "Evolution is only a theory" line debunked so many times by now that they must just be spouting it to annoy people. I can't emphasise enough that it has nothing to do with how likely something is to be true. At all.