Rey's parentage is obviously a plot point going forward in the trilogy, and that's fine to me. I have my personal theory on that matter, in that she's a Skywalker. But she could easily just be "a really talented kid Luke found for his Jedi school, and happened to be the youngest". I'm fine with either scenario, but I do think that narratively, it is more circular to have her be a Skywalker, while Finn is someone else who is strong in the Force, but not of the Skywalker line.AccursedTheory said:And you didn't even go into the part where Rey get's knocked the hell out.LifeCharacter said:Indeed, the number of people outright ignoring Luke's accomplishes does make one wonder if they remember what Luke actually did in the original trilogy. I mean, it's stupidly easy to see that a lot of people barely paid any attention to the new movie, but the new movie isn't some decades old trilogy that is a supposed staple of nerdom and sci-fi.Zontar said:
Oh look, a horribly misrepresentative image that downplays every one of Luke's accomplishments and hypes up every last thing Rey did. And you're just throwing it up as if it's even remotely accurate.
Last time I checked, Rey beat up two guys, knew about a single modification that she was involved with installing on the Millenium Falcon that Han had absolutely no fucking way of knowing about, stated that she's flown before but not in space, gets her ass handed to her by a heavily wounded and emotionally distraught Kylo Ren until she gives into the Force, can resist mind probing and manages to trick a weak minded stormtrooper on her third attempt, is trusted by Leia, the leader of the Resistance and Force sensitive, to go find her Jedi brother, speaks several languages like literally every other character in the universe, and has an actual reason why she would be competent at these things considering she lived on a junkyard planet and is a former student of Luke's.
Meanwhile, Luke is the best pilot in the Rebellion who can survive a trench run and Darth Vader simply because he flew some speeder back home, blew up a giant superweapon by giving into the Force allowing him to make a shot no one else was able to make, and has no reason to be the least bit competent at any sort of combat or piloting. But I guess him being put upon makes all his achievements go away.
Twice.
On topic, however:
http://comicbook.com/2016/04/11/daisy-ridley-knows-whose-reys-parents-are-doesnt-think-its-impor/Daisy Ridley said:
Ridley (Damn, that's awesome to have as a last name) appears to have known about her character's parentage since the beginning of filming Episode 7, and she claims that it's not important to the plot, or that she's related to anyone in the current canon.
Of course, this could all be a smoke screen, but I think this is the biggest piece of evidence anyone's going to get until Episode 9 comes out in theaters.
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If I were to have it my way...Happyninja42 said:AccursedTheory said:And you didn't even go into the part where Rey get's knocked the hell out.LifeCharacter said:Indeed, the number of people outright ignoring Luke's accomplishes does make one wonder if they remember what Luke actually did in the original trilogy. I mean, it's stupidly easy to see that a lot of people barely paid any attention to the new movie, but the new movie isn't some decades old trilogy that is a supposed staple of nerdom and sci-fi.Zontar said:
Oh look, a horribly misrepresentative image that downplays every one of Luke's accomplishments and hypes up every last thing Rey did. And you're just throwing it up as if it's even remotely accurate.
Last time I checked, Rey beat up two guys, knew about a single modification that she was involved with installing on the Millenium Falcon that Han had absolutely no fucking way of knowing about, stated that she's flown before but not in space, gets her ass handed to her by a heavily wounded and emotionally distraught Kylo Ren until she gives into the Force, can resist mind probing and manages to trick a weak minded stormtrooper on her third attempt, is trusted by Leia, the leader of the Resistance and Force sensitive, to go find her Jedi brother, speaks several languages like literally every other character in the universe, and has an actual reason why she would be competent at these things considering she lived on a junkyard planet and is a former student of Luke's.
Meanwhile, Luke is the best pilot in the Rebellion who can survive a trench run and Darth Vader simply because he flew some speeder back home, blew up a giant superweapon by giving into the Force allowing him to make a shot no one else was able to make, and has no reason to be the least bit competent at any sort of combat or piloting. But I guess him being put upon makes all his achievements go away.
Twice.
On topic, however:
http://comicbook.com/2016/04/11/daisy-ridley-knows-whose-reys-parents-are-doesnt-think-its-impor/Daisy Ridley said:
Ridley (Damn, that's awesome to have as a last name) appears to have known about her character's parentage since the beginning of filming Episode 7, and she claims that it's not important to the plot, or that she's related to anyone in the current canon.
Of course, this could all be a smoke screen, but I think this is the biggest piece of evidence anyone's going to get until Episode 9 comes out in theaters.
Rey's parentage is obviously a plot point going forward in the trilogy, and that's fine to me. I have my personal theory on that matter, in that she's a Skywalker. But she could easily just be "a really talented kid Luke found for his Jedi school, and happened to be the youngest". I'm fine with either scenario, but I do think that narratively, it is more circular to have her be a Skywalker, while Finn is someone else who is strong in the Force, but not of the Skywalker line.
I'd make it so that Rey slowly becomes convinced that she's a Skywalker, but it's something that's never discussed with her by an actual Skywalker. She get's all pumped up about being some sort of prophetic badass, but then at the moment where everything comes together, Kylo/Snoke shoots her down and shows her she's just gutter trash with a lightsaber. In a moment of despair, Finn pumps her up by convincing her that it doesn't matter who her parents were, because she's awesome and she can fucking do this. Cue roflstomp fight where she smears the dark side under her heel.
But that's just me.
I'm wondering how you can doubt the memories of others, when you throw this horseshit up.Zontar said:The comparison of Luke and Rey is one I see often, and it makes me wonder if people remember how much Luke had to overcome in the original trilogy.
REY
1. Rey beats up 2 guys.
2. Rey knows more about a single piece of hardware installed on the Falcon years after Han lost it. She knows about it because she's worked on the Falcon in the past. It's owned by her employer and "caretaker", Unkar Plutt.
3. That was not the first time she flew. Even if you HADN'T read the novelization, she fucking says IN THE FILM that she's flown before.
4. Hand waving Kylo's injuries, which are PAINSTAKINGLY established with multiple set-up and payoff scenes involving the Bowcaster, blood on the snow, and an ashen face/desperately sweating Adam Driver.
5. You don't know about Rey's past.
6. You don't know about Rey's past.
7. You don't know about Rey's past.
8. Making declarative statements about characters in chapter one of a three chapter story is SO INCREDIBLY STUPID, because you don't know about their past. Particularly when said character is set up with a mysterious origin.
LUKE
1. Screwed up deflecting blaster bolts twice, then concentrates and "reaches out with his feelings" and successfully blind blocks laser fire. He's been practicing for the sum total of about 30 minutes.
2. Yoda fully expects him to lift the X-Wing from the bog and is disappointed when he does not. Luke's problem is doubt/fear, not "lack of sufficient Jedi levels".
3. Needed Han and Leia to constantly cover his ass? What? This is pure fantasy.
4. And the rest of this is just hand waving, and half of it is from episodes V and VI. It's a bankrupt comparison. It's fruit for idiots.
Good job introducing a conversation about Rey in POST TWO of a conversation about the First Order/New Galactic Republic though. So very on topic.
OP - It's been sufficiently explained elsewhere in the thread. Notably, the First Order isn't the entirety of the old Empire, just a splinter faction. They're parked in the Outer Rim, and have been operating largely in secret. the NGR doesn't take them particularly seriously, outside of a few hard liners who secretly back Leia's tiny proxy army.
And yes, all of this could and probably should have been established in the film itself, but was abandoned due to a perceived audience allergy to "space politics".
Hades said:
In fairness, when Finn suggests using the Falcon as an escape vehicle, Rey calls it a piece of junk and thinks it's not worth their time. Someone who knows about the Falcon and it's capabilities would never say that. Now I know it's supposed to be a call back to Luke's line in the original films, but that was used to show his own ignorance and inexperience. Here it just comes off as characterization breaking when she immediately pilots the ship perfectly and repairs it with no difficulty.AccursedTheory said:
Especially since it's about a single part that she herself was involved in installing and Han wouldn't be as familiar with.Hades said:
This really isn't knowing more about the Falcon than Han. It's knowing more about a modification you made on a ship he hasn't had possession of in years. And honestly, how was Han supposed to know about this? Use The Force?
And, I mean, there may be a bunch of other things on the Falcon she's now more intimately familiar with than Han, which still makes sense because she's been working on it and he hasn't. I doubt Lando knew every change Han made to her, either.
TBH, this whole argument reminds me of Star Trek: The Motionless Picture. Kirk's lack of familiarity with the new systems cost lives, and nearly got the ship destroyed when there was a warp malfunction. Decker, who was familiar with the refit, countermanded what would have been a fatal order and Kirk was FURIOUS. Except instead of Han being mad, it seems it's a chunk of the audience mad on his behalf.
Only semi-related, but here's Rey's first shot at flying the Falcon:
You're doing a bit of "hyping up" yourself LifeCharacter. Luke isn't shown to be the best pilot in the Rebellion, he only survived the trench run because Han came back and saved his life. He successfully uses the force once, to guide a difficult shot, which is the culmination of his character arc at the end of the first film. The movie does establish that he has experience in shooting ("I used to bulls eye womprats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than 2 metres"), though not actual combat considering he's nearly killed by the sand people and ruffed up in the bar.LifeCharacter said:
I just want to know why the Rebellion Resistance doesn't have it's own Death Star by now. They've had the plans for the fucker for 30 years now...you mean to tell me they couldn't have built one of their own by now? You know...just in case anybody wanted to...oh, I don't know...turn a planet into a star-devouring doomsday weapon that can obliterate other planets from half-way across the galaxy? Seems like having your own Death Star - a station that can destroy planets - would come in handy in case the remnants of the Empire decided to start acting up again.
Renegade for Life!
Renegade for Life!
The Falcon is a hunk of junk. It requires perpetual maintenance just to keep running, and is in a constant state of breakage. When it does work, it's magnificent. When it doesn't work, it nearly kills everyone.Austin Manning said:
Finn and Rey are in it for a grand total of 10 minutes before it almost kills them.
Oh I would totally be down for that too. I have no vested interest/need for her to be a Skywalker, I just think that's the route they're going to take in the narrative, to continue the Skywalker legacy. But I'm totally down for "nope, she's just someone else who is badass in the Force." It's why I'm rooting for Finn to be a Force user as well, because I'd like to see people who aren't Skywalkers being Force users again. Though I seem to be the only person who thinks Finn is a Force user. Oddly enough, the reasons people say he's not a Force user, match up really damn well with that "Mary Sue/Not Mary Sue" picture above, under the Luke category.AccursedTheory said:
Things like "Finn got his ass kicked by Kylo Ren!" So did Luke the first time he fought Vader, and he actually had training. "Finn got his back cut off in the fight!" Luke got his hand cut off. "Finn was constantly fighting a defensive fight!" So did Luke against Vader. I just think it's going to be another reveal, sort of like what you hope to see from Rey, but with Finn. He's going to think he's been playing second chair to Rey this whole time, but will learn "No, you were both Awakened to the Force, you just didn't notice it." And then he's going to roflstomp stuff alongside her. That's my dream scenario. I just think, doing an entire promotional campaign, showing Finn wielding a saber, and then not have him be a Jedi, is just....odd, odd and very silly.
Disarmament treaty would really be turned on its ear if the NGR went and built a Death Star. What are they going to sell THAT as? A recycling center?RJ 17 said:
I thought that was rather the point. If one wants to ignore context, hand wave supporting events and cheerfully employ hyperbole, one can make virtually any character look ridiculous.Austin Manning said:
You're not the only one to think/hope Finn is a force user, though I'm not in that group.Happyninja42 said:
I hope Finn isn't a force user, because I like him how he is. A stormtrooper brought to heroism by friendship, bumbling his way to victory through the power of broism. I like the idea of him being kind of a Han Soloish figure, flying by the seat of his pants with just a blaster and luck on his side.
That being said, if he is a force user, I'd like it if he didn't become a proper Jedi. They've hinted that Leia will be getting more screen time in Episode 8, and that she'll be exploring the force. Perhaps it would be a neat split if while Rey and Luke are doing the typical Jedi thing...
Leia and Finn go on their own force journey, where they use some of it to their advantage (Being able to 'feel' things, letting it guide them) without going down the full blown, make-your-own lightsaber path.
I'm probably the only one here who's full engrossed by the Rebels show/books, but I'll use Kanaan, pre-reembrassing the Jedi way, as an example. He puts his lightsaber away, and only uses the force in the most trivial ways, as he gallivants around the galaxy, pretty much ignoring the force whenever able in favor of just punching, shooting, and in being, in general, a rougish fool as he wanders the cosmos.
Perpetual maintenance isn't necessarily a sign of something being junk. Most complex vehicles (ships, aircraft, etc) are in states of perpetual maintenance because of the large number of moving parts in their design. Simple put: these things can easily break in small ways, which can be disastrous.AccursedTheory said:
Well why not? Just tell everyone it's a gigantic garbage disposal, slap a giant clock onto the side of it, and oh yeah: it just happens to fire giant planet-exploding lasers, but that's just special effects for Rave Night!BloatedGuppy said:
Edit: Besides, that's the point of "fighting" this war through a proxy. It wouldn't be the Republic building this, oh no...it would be "The Resistance".
Plausible Deniability ftw! :3
I remember people trying to push this new historical revision of Luke Skywalker being the best pilot in the rebellion last TFA thread I was in and wasn't buying it, and certainly ain't buying it now.LifeCharacter said:
Let's rewatch the piloting sequences Luke is in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WBG2rJZGW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BkOVSFb2Zw (part 1 of 3 since could not find single vid of Hoth which is weird cos I swear I could before... Maybe im going senile)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSG3m4VNlo
Let's go through Luke's awesome moments shall we?:
Death Star Trench run:
-Almost CRASHES much to his team mate's distress. I feel this scene alone kinda undermines any best pilot theory one can have, he almost dies right there and then in the most stupid manner possible.
-Does not fly better or kill more then Biggs Darklighter who by contrast, IS the best pilot in that battle with Wedge or Garvin Dreis being the other better pilots (Wedge even saves Lukes ass at one point). The other rogues seem pretty solid too for the most part and it's hard to say if Luke is better then them, if he is then the difference isn't that great.
-Is only able to survive the trench run thanks to the sacrifice of his 2 buddies shielding him, and when you see Darth Vader locking on to his various targets, Biggs is the one that is actually flies in the most difficult pattern and it made sense that the now retconned EU at the time explained Darth Vader used his force powers to make a hax shot on what was the best pilot the rebels had. This might still be cannon for all I know.
- Uses Force ex machina to achieve what the other pilots couldn't, so in other words it wasn't because he was the best pilot, but because he was the one with force powers and had Obi Wan helping him from beyond to grave (use the force luke! trust your instincts! just before Luke actually does damage to the death star with some "lucky" shots).
Without Obi Wan Luke might not even have made it to the trench run in the first place, he would certainly have died to Vader since would have been no "the force is strong with this one" moment of distraction.
-Gets saved by Han since even with the force, Vader was about to kill him.
Ok lets go to Hoth then, surely we gonna see Luke at his best! Oh wait..
- Gets shot once, loses his copilot
- Gets shot a second time, is downed. End of Luke's piloting antics for that battle.
- Meanwhile Wedge does not get hit and his snowspeeder brings down an AT-AT.
-Yet somehow Luke is the best pilot here despite accomplishing 0 and gets shot down early within 5 minutes of the battle?
We see him being the badass on foot but I just can't see how anyone can get the idea Luke is a great pilot, let alone the best in the rebellion from this scene.
One movie left, if we are going to see Luke's piloting genius then it's going to be here..
-Looks determined as he slams on the brakes to suddenly fall behind the two chasing scout troopers and successfully guns one down. I think this is actually his best piloting feat without force assistance in the entire trilogy.
Woohoo Luke, way to go boy!
-However afterwards he fails to see an incoming tree in time and has to jump out, thus making that scout trooper the winner of that little duel by default but then Luke whips out the light saber and wins when on foot (why the scout didn't just keep going so as to warn the rest of the Imperials like one would expect is something that's always bugged me..Oh wait the Emperor knew they were coming..Hum still find it a bit silly but nvm, topic isn't about nitpicking scenes)
But honestly we all know who the best pilot in the entire setting is...Poe. He makes taking out 5 ties in a single pass look stupidly easy, it's a mystery why the resistance doesn't just unleash Poe by himself to face down entire fleets.
Or maybe that's how the rebellion won at Jahku and all the wreckage is in fact Poe's kills?
Oh also it wasn't a speeder, but a t-16 skyhopper: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper
And I remember last thread someone was telling me "oh but they just made that up after the films and they had no idea what a t-16 was" except you see Luke playing with a model of it in the first film. At least so the wiki link says, I'll be honest and admit I didn't remember that either or I'd have said as much in the last thread.
Luke was a very good pilot, but I recall the general thrust of those discussions being that Luke received the 'hero edit' despite naysayers suggesting this was impossible because a noisome alien demanded his seat at the cantina. You adequately demonstrate that here, noting his use of "Force Ex Machina" to destroy the Death Star, and noting that his speeder is shot down on Hoth...after which he pops out and single-handedly wrecks an AT-AT by lightsaber.Frankster said:
I distinctly remember having to argue against the perception Luke was the best pilot and having to defend Wedge Antilles as my choice of a better pilot. We seem to have taken different things from that thread, perhaps you are remembering discussions with others where I was not involved yet? It was a big thread after all, TFA had just come out and we were all venting our raw impressions.BloatedGuppy said:
And yeh, outside the cockpit I am not disputing anything about Luke being OP (well I haven't bothered rewatching and analying hard enough to argue against this perception anyways, this is a battle I'm content not to fight). Inside the cockpit though?
Even "very good" pilot seems too much to me. I just listed his antics, and his best moments come from force ex machina, not his l33t piloting skills which really does not strike me as outstanding in any way, whereas with Wedge it does, you see him flying awesomely in all 3 films.
I think you can make the argument Luke isn't necessarily an exceptional pilot, but at the absolute minimum he appears to be a highly competent natural. He's a highly competent natural at virtually everything he does, really, which is in keeping with what we see of Force users throughout the series, to say nothing of the moan-inducing Phantom Menace exposition sequence where we learn Jedi see into the future all the time.Frankster said:
A good pilot who made a physically impossible shot, bragged about how shots that a veteran rebel pilot called impossible were actually easy, lasted longer against Vader than Wedge Antilles one of the most badass pilots in the rebellion, was able to fire fight against storm troopers who are built up to be major badasses, starts deflecting blaster bolts three seconds after he gets a lightsaber, flies a fighter that he has never been in before, matches Han in terms of kill count when escaping from the Death Star. I really don't see how she's that far above him, considering her achievements can't even hold a candle to his. She took out two TIE fighters. Luke took out the Death Star, avoiding getting fragged by Vader as he did, in a way that very heavily implied that the force was helping him.votemarvel said:
Holy strawman Batman!The Purple Grape said:
That seems a reasonable enough statement to agree with, Luke is definitely an all rounder for the most part, the only weaknesses I can think of is he doesn't start becoming proficient in melee (both with a light saber and without) until the start of the 2nd film, and he is very much a noob force user who needs Obi Wan to babysit him every step of the way, right up to the death star run, otherwise he seemed incapable of using the force by himself on a conscious level until the second film where he pulls the light saber from the snow.BloatedGuppy said:
Since this seems to segway into the Rey/Luke comparison some are bringing up, I think I'll arrive here at the same conclusion we arrived last time we had this chat (assuming I'm not confusing you with someone else)
TFA went by too damn fast that most probably missed the explanations given for Rey's abilities, or was outright just explained in the novels so you'd have to read supplementary material, or in the case of her natural force proficiency, might be explained by a later movie.
Whereas with Luke, all his abilities are shown and repeatedly highlighted in the films before he does them:
-Decent pilot? Mentions loving to fly his T-16, wanted to join the Imperial navy and was best friends with Biggs who was pretty much Luke minus the force powers so we had someone "normal" from Tatooine to compare him to and see he wasn't exceptional in this regard.
-Decent shot? You see Luke armed when traveling implying he is very much used to carrying weapons as part of his usual life style and he does mention shooting womp rats (so small, moving targets) as part of his childhood, so he grew up being used to shoot.
-Decent mechanic? You see him tinkering with droids and machines as part of his routine helping out at the moisture farm.
None of these are blink and you miss them moments and you are reminded of Luke's background several times partly because the film was slower paced and took greater time to introduce everyone, hence why Luke probably seemed more a natural character as opposed to a Sue'. Not that I'm implying Rey is by contrast, we have been through this before and I'm now gonna wait until the films with her are finished/I read some of the new EU stuff with her in it, before I speak on that one way or another.