After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[Frankster]

But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

Because being around crashed spaceships doesn't turn you into a space ace anymore then being around wrecked cars makes you into a formula 1 driver. Trust me, I've lived most of my life around actual functioning cars and I still don't know how to drive by osmosis. Jokes aside this was why when I actually watched the film I was so surprised to see she could pilot the falcon, heck I wasn't even sure she knew how to drive because you always see her walking around rather then using any vehicle.
Then it was explained to me she learnt via simulators in the novelization...But really, can you blame people for not assuming that?

There's several potential reasons why NO ONE tears Poe apart.

And EVERYONE focuses on complaining about Rey's piloting ability in the same movie.

But honestly we all know who the best pilot in the entire setting is...Poe. He makes taking out 5 ties in a single pass look stupidly easy, it's a mystery why the resistance doesn't just unleash Poe by himself to face down entire fleets.
Or maybe that's how the rebellion won at Jahku and all the wreckage is in fact Poe's kills?

Oh god this is starting to be a worrying trend in TFA threads. I'm gonna give you guys a squeeze because it was quite a few posts ago and it was only 3 lines, so maybe you don't get an accurate sense of my nerd rage in that single snipe that was otherwise completed unrelated to what I was talking about.
But BloatedGuppy or anyone else who was there at the last thread can back me up on this, I was hating on Poe before it was cool and had epic nerd rages on him before it was pointed out that apparently no one does it and I'm a card carrying member of the Rey hate club. #notallreyhaters

If you liked that scene though, here is another one for you guys: ever gave much thought on how Poe came from waking up in the desert alone without even his jacket (and having survived a fall high enough to separate him from his friend so they weren't in sight of each other), to suddenly being at the head of the flight of resistance fighters right before he goes earning his acehood thrice over?
It's apparently explained in a deleted scene but even with it (he got a ride by 2 random dudes) you gotta love how easy it was to leave Jahku all along with absolutely no money and nothing more then the shirt on your back, and make it back to resistance hq via galactic hitch hiking, have a bit of tea, then go off and rescue the protagonists right at the exact most perfect time.
This guy being Ace Rimmer on steroids though, he probably had all sorts of adventures and blew up some First Order fleets on his way with nothing more then a perfectly delivered quip and then banged like two space princesses.

 

[axlryder]

I think something important to consider is that Rey, while certainly central to events, is not the only character of significance in this film. She has echoes of Luke in her characterization so it's easy to see her as "the protagonist" and assume the trilogy will swirl around her, but I think Ben Solo could be argued to be equally as significant a character. He's not just a prop with a red lightsaber on hand to inform Rey's characterization, she's also there to inform his. Her resisting his will and seeing his fear and doubt was significant for his characterization, followed by the scene of his intense discomfort when Hux sees him without his mask. When she does overcome him, she does so by slipping...ever so momentarily...into a trance like state and touching the Force...something he's unable to do because he's a storm of emotion, pain and anger. She provokes intense anxiety and uncertainty in him. He flips his shit the first time he hears of her involvement, he treats her gently in captivity, he makes a bid to become her teacher after beating her to the edge of exhaustion. He has a complex relationship with her, possibly a familial one. Unlike Vader, who was mostly there to elucidate the perils of Luke's interaction with The Force and the potential downside of unprepared investigation of his newfound powers, Ben is a full fledged character. Possibly the most richly detailed and explored character of TFA.

Hey, thanks for the response. I thought this was going to be one of those 'screaming into a vacuum' posts. I see where you're coming from, and I'm actually a really big fan of how Kylo's character was handled in the film overall. I agree that there's absolutely some connection between the two characters, and that such a bond would cause Kylo to falter in an uncharacteristic way, I just felt like the interrogation scene was a little too on the nose, especially at that point in the movie. I think they did a pretty good job illustrating the vulnerability he feels around Rey and his general feelings self-doubt without Rey straight up probing his mind and declaring that "you're afraid you'll never be as good as darth vader" or however it was phrased. Overall it was more of a delivery and pacing issue that really took me out of the movie at that point. Of course, I can see why they did what they did, as changes scenes and shifting them around definitely causes some other problems, most of which we just can't know until the rest of the films come out, but I can't help but feel that some things could have been executed in a more satisfying and tempered way.

 

[Tiger King]

I only got around to watching it the other night.
Was an ok film I suppose, I'm not a super Star Wars fan but there was a big flaw in it for me.

Super spoiler alert!!
Super spoiler alert!!!

At the end that princess Liea girl runs straight to Ray and hugs her despite having never even met her.
I understand it may have been a force thing but still, chewbacca was not even looked at regarding his loss.

Kinda felt it was a bit of a rehash of the first film.
Also felt Ray was ticking all the feminist boxes for 'strong, independent woman'

I enjoyed it though.

 

[DefunctTheory]

At the end that princess Liea girl runs straight to Ray and hugs her despite having never even met her.
I understand it may have been a force thing but still, chewbacca was not even looked at regarding his loss.

First, for future reference...

[spoiler-
Spoiled Text
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Replace - with ]

Second, that event was acknowledged as a goof by the director. A fairly bizarre one at that.

 

[Timedraven 117]

On Topic:

The New Republic are absolutely moronic individuals. The political reason given for their military downsizing are not just laughable but almost insultingly stupid. The main reason was that after they seemingly broke the back of the Empire they downsized to reassure the greater galactic public that they weren't the empire and wouldn't be oppressive and controlling. Two problems with that. PIRATES/RAIDERS/TERRORISTS, Ethnic and Species Tensions! You see all those space pirates, illegal smugglers, raiders, criminal cartels, rogue fleets, ect, are still out there, people still have to police the outer worlds, have to protect trade, protect the innocent, fight those who would harm others. But *GASP* you can't do that with a single fleet centered around your capital world! Even if you let surrounding wolds police it themselves, many worlds after decades of military oppression by the Empire won't have the fleets, ships, manpower, or officers to do the job anywhere adequately. And if they for some reason DO have the economic and military power to do this, we come into problem 2 Ethnic tensions between neighboring species and star systems. It was outright stated in many of the EU books that after the empire folded many repressed tensions, wars, and disagreements sparked into full fledged conflicts that the New Republic now had to deal with, quite succinctly in the Thrawn series of books.

Now all of this could be avoided, and the political grumbling killed by one fix. Regional fleets, specifically formed from the previous Rebellion regional cell system which worked amazingly well against the empire, (Which BTW is totally within Disneys new cannon). They have the infrastructure, connections, regional support, manpower, and equipment to handle the job. They only thing that would need to be changed is certain leadership positions to ensure that everyone within the entire command structure are impartial and objective minded individuals to make sure that the previous ethnic tensions don't become an issue.

This would solve politics because under regional rule the local star systems have a say on what goes on in the military structure and can use them as a general impartial policing force.

Next is baffling nature of HOW THE HELL THE FIRST ORDER CAN MAKE STARKILLER IN THE FIRST PLACE WITH NO ONE KNOWING! I mean the Emperor made a star station the size of a small moon and tried his best to keep it absolutely secret. It failed. It failed so hard that the Rebels successful attempt at killing it wasn't even their first time TRYING. Now why the hell is Starkiller not revealed as soon as the plans are drawn up? There are more than enough people in the power structure or simply working on it to have more than enough reason to secretly slip that information to the republic, since there is not a force sensitive powerful enough to latently keep ALL of the First Order under their force control. For reference on how hard it is to keep anything that big secret, Operation Barbarossa was known to be happening by EVERYONE, even the soviet Union, (It was only fucking Stalin who overruled basically everyone that the Soviets were caught with their pants down while changing). Even Operation Overlord was known by the Nazis to be about to happen, and the Allies succeed through brilliant redirection methods and by going in very unfavorable weather, and even then it required a lot of luck and hard work to successfully trick the Germans. So even the New Republic can realize, "Where the hell are all those resources and manpower going? a black hole?" Even the excuse of them using many of their resources from the Unknown Regions have the problem of the fact that the Emperor with the resources of the ENTIRE Galactic Empire couldn't make a station the size of a small moon secret, how the ll is the First Order, an organization a percentile the size of the Galactic Empire, even with the presumably largely underdeveloped Unknown Regions, going to make a planet sized starbase that converts a small amount of the power of a sun, and fires it across hyperspace, a secret?

I could go on, but you get my point. I'm very disappointed with JJ Abrams and Disney for the direction they took. (Of course the Books after the Pellion-Gressom treaty weren't much better, but still).

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

What I want to know is why the ENTIRE Republic Fleet was apparently around those three planets.

Seriously, the governing body of a galaxy somehow doesn't have enough ships to completely blot out the sky of a planet just from numbers alone, and for some reason most of, if not their ENTIRE fleet not on loan to the resistance is focused around one of these planets. How the HELL did Warhammer 40,000 become the more sensible sci-fi universe?!

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Everything here

Seriously, freaking A Poe.

Not gonna lie guys, I'm pretty certain Poe would be getting just as many Gary Stu accusation as Rey has been getting except for the fact he's not in the movie enough for people to really notice his more stand out moments. (Such as nailing a couple of Stormtroopers behind his on foot buddies from an in flight X-Wing.)

I'm also pretty certain he was supposed to be in the first half of the movie, but they edited him out and never really rewrote the script accordingly.

 

[xaszatm]

I still have to ask; why is the New Galactic Republic not actively fighting the First Order in the new trilogy? The GR is a legitimate government, and its not like the First Order is a rival government; they're clearly a terrorist organization with a bank account and they even act like they acknowledge it.

Yet the NGR limits their fight to a small, barely organized "Resistance" movement? Why the fuck isn't the actual Navy assisting; why doesn't the Resistance appear to have ACTUAL ships, not just small craft?

What the hell guys?

(Also, I have sadface because my new avatar won't appear)

Ok, it's important to note that there are 4 factions in Star Wars: The Force Awakens These four factions are

The New Republic - What the Rebellion turned into after winning the Galactic War. Is currently the most powerful faction in the galaxy. Is a very peaceful state which is why it hasn't officially declared war on the First Order

The Imperial Remnant - The remnants of the Galactic Empire. After losing the Galactic War, the Imperial Remnant is forced to pay several reparations, leaving utterly broke in galactic economic turns. The currently are not at war with anyone.

The First Order - Pissed-off, glory-seeking. ignorant war hawks who worship the old Galactic Empire. Fanatic to restoring the Empire, those small faction uses its resources to wage battle against the New Republic. However, they are considered a fringe, if powerful, faction that has no real ties to the Imperial Remnant

The Resistance - Since the New Republic won't declare war, certain individuals instead fund The Resistance, which is a small "independent" group waging war against the similarly "independent" First Order.

The biggest reason why The New Republic doesn't officially wage war on the First Order is because they do not want to risk war with the Imperial Remnant. Though The New Republic does have the resources to fight and win such a war, it would be a timely cost of supplies and lives and ruin an already fragile infrastructure. In the New Republic's eye, it's far better for both factions to "ease the tension" rather than go all out in another costly war. Of course, with the use of Starkiller Base, this opinion might change.

Now, if the damn movie actually BOTHERED to explain any of that rather than leaving it in the book, then there'd be less questions.

Not gonna lie man, I'm pretty certain Poe would be getting just as many Gary Stu accusation as Rey has been getting except for the fact he's not in the movie enough for people to really notice his more stand out moments. (Such as nailing a couple of Stormtroopers behind his on foot buddies from an in flight X-Wing.)

I'm also pretty certain he was supposed to be in the first half of the movie, but they edited him out and never really rewrote the script accordingly.

Actually, it's the opposite. Poe Daemon was supposed to die when the TIE Fighter crashed. It's just that his actor had such good chemistry that he was added back into the script. So, instead of him being cut in the first half, he was added (rather sloppily I might add) into the second half, which explains a lot of his Gary Stu-ish traits.

What I want to know is why the ENTIRE Republic Fleet was apparently around those three planets.

Seriously, the governing body of a galaxy somehow doesn't have enough ships to completely blot out the sky of a planet just from numbers alone, and for some reason most of, if not their ENTIRE fleet not on loan to the resistance is focused around one of these planets. How the HELL did Warhammer 40,000 become the more sensible sci-fi universe?!

If I recall correctly, it wasn't the entire fleet but rather the fleet closest in comparison to Starkiller Base and any other fleet wouldn't make it in time. Of course...this doesn't explain why there's no capital starship orbiting the Starkiller base. You know, that Superweapon you guys own? I mean, even the two Deathstars kept an Imperial Star Destroyer or two nearby.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

...a severely wounded Ren and nowhere have we learned if Ren is anywhere near fully trained.

The ending of the film. The inference from Snoke's line about completing Ren's training is that he isn't fully-trained. Building upon that, the greater implication (especially given lines earlier in the film) is that killing Han was Ren's equivalent to the Jedi trials, for whatever order of which Snoke is (or isn't) a part. All that we realistically know, is the Knights of Ren are a group of Snoke's disciplines/apprentices.

But look at his lightsaber, its poorly constructed and he isn't that good with it.

Canon kind of contradicts you on that one a bit. It's an Old Republic design, and as far as mechanics and working components go exceptionally well-crafted. Comments about its crudeness or poor nature of design typically reflect the aesthetics of the lightsaber, which aligns with the rest of his characterization.

Functionally, its failing is that its focusing crystal is cracked, causing it to generate an unstable (and overpowered) blade. The crossguard is actually a design necessity to bleed off excess power without overloading the crystal or its power grid. And, depending upon how heavily Disney draws from the better parts of the EU (and it looks like they are very willing, at least with the animated material)...Dark Side users are all over the place when it comes to building lightsabers. Ren may very well have fit a cracked crystal into his blade on purpose -- Dark Siders intentionally using inferior crystals to produce unstable blades is something of an EU staple.

So we're not talking about a guy who is absolutely trained and deadly, but rather a scared and angry kid who's trying so hard to be Vader (and failing miserably). Once again, the theme of the wannabe Empire shows.

I'd actually disagree...to a certain extent.

Being able to stop a blaster bolt in mid-air, and later taking a center-mass hit with a bowcaster and surviving, let alone still being combat-effective, indicates he either has a natural talent for absorb/dissipate, or is highly trained in it. The same goes for his skill with telekinesis, and telepathy. He's unrefined, but no slouch by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, on the other hand he blows at drawing upon the Dark Side, having to aggravate his own wounds to do it.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

Oh god this is starting to be a worrying trend in TFA threads. I'm gonna give you guys a squeeze because it was quite a few posts ago and it was only 3 lines, so maybe you don't get an accurate sense of my nerd rage in that single snipe that was otherwise completed unrelated to what I was talking about.
But BloatedGuppy or anyone else who was there at the last thread can back me up on this, I was hating on Poe before it was cool and had epic nerd rages on him before it was pointed out that apparently no one does it and I'm a card carrying member of the Rey hate club. #notallreyhaters

If you liked that scene though, here is another one for you guys: ever gave much thought on how Poe came from waking up in the desert alone without even his jacket (and having survived a fall high enough to separate him from his friend so they weren't in sight of each other), to suddenly being at the head of the flight of resistance fighters right before he goes earning his acehood thrice over?
It's apparently explained in a deleted scene but even with it (he got a ride by 2 random dudes) you gotta love how easy it was to leave Jahku all along with absolutely no money and nothing more then the shirt on your back, and make it back to resistance hq via galactic hitch hiking, have a bit of tea, then go off and rescue the protagonists right at the exact most perfect time.
This guy being Ace Rimmer on steroids though, he probably had all sorts of adventures and blew up some First Order fleets on his way with nothing more then a perfectly delivered quip and then banged like two space princesses.

Hell, I'll do you one better and say I was complaining about Gary Stuism in Abram's Nu-Trek where Kirk is made captain for no other reason than the eight military ranks above him simultaneously being made vacant and it being his "destiny". Beyond that, we have a typical "rebel without a cause" bad boy slacker protagonist where there once was a character who managed to be both suave and disciplined.

What's frustrating about the Rey praise is that it's premised on so much revisionism. Luke was the ace in A New Hope despite being surrounded by cooler and/or more mature characters; Leia was a damsel in distress despite talking shit to Darth Goddamn Vader's face, resisting torture, and firing blasters right alongside the boys; and never before has there been a tough woman protagonist in space sci-fi *cough*EllenRipley*cough*...

 

[Kolby Jack]

But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

Because being around crashed spaceships doesn't turn you into a space ace anymore then being around wrecked cars makes you into a formula 1 driver. Trust me, I've lived most of my life around actual functioning cars and I still don't know how to drive by osmosis. Jokes aside this was why when I actually watched the film I was so surprised to see she could pilot the falcon, heck I wasn't even sure she knew how to drive because you always see her walking around rather then using any vehicle.

Other than that boxy speeder she uses in the first scene she's in? Also, just because you chose not to learn about cars doesn't mean you couldn't have. And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace." She's good, and force-sensitive, but she only had one flying scene. It's not like she was zipping through the sky alongside Poe shooting down dozens of fighters and blowing up planets the whole movie.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

...Rey is a good character.

Moving on.

I always figured it was a case of 'cold war' politics - that an all out war between the two sides would've been devastating and pointless, resulting in massive losses with no gain. So instead they just stood on each others borders, rattling sabers, sabotaging assorted projects, sending spies or building up fleets.

Though, it's just The First Order spent time building a thermo-nuclear (look it's fueled by a sun, it counts) weapon rather than dumping money into more Star Destroyers. And then happened to be crazy enough to push the big red button to blow everyone to hell.

'Mutually Assured Destruction' doesn't quite work as planned when someone makes a weapon that can literally fire across the Galaxy to blow up your entire star system in a surprise attack.

 

[RedRockRun]

I still have to ask; why is the New Galactic Republic not actively fighting the First Order in the new trilogy? The GR is a legitimate government, and its not like the First Order is a rival government; they're clearly a terrorist organization with a bank account and they even act like they acknowledge it.

Yet the NGR limits their fight to a small, barely organized "Resistance" movement? Why the fuck isn't the actual Navy assisting; why doesn't the Resistance appear to have ACTUAL ships, not just small craft?

What the hell guys?

(Also, I have sadface because my new avatar won't appear)

As someone refusing to be an apologist for this movie, it's because Abrams wanted to mirror the conceit of the original trilogy as opposed to branching out into something new.

Thus, the First Order and Resistance are contrived to recapture the feel of the old movies where a well-equipped, and uniform fascist army clashes against ragtag underdogs.

That is why there is a First Order to begin with, and don't let anyone work any logic gymnastics trying to say otherwise. It's hackneyed writing, driving for the nostalgia vote and nothing more.

 

[Politrukk]

Yeah, I have to agree, it did a pretty terrible job at explaining the political setting. Now, I get it, the prequels are PR poison and they wanted to get as far away from them as possible, and I get that people told George to go fuck himself when he filled his movies with boring political dialogue, but that doesn't mean politics to contextualize the story are automatically a bad thing. It seems I was apparently supposed to watch the movie, then go read the novelization to find out what the stakes were and why I should care.

I think part of the problem here is that due to the expanded universe that did handle some of that politics and ofcourse the prequel movies actually shining at some of those moments.... that the movies feel empty without it now.

A lot of people myself included are fan of The Clone Wars animated series and that series basically fixes a lot of what was wrong with the prequel trilogy and the politics part is surprisingly fun.

(it also shows that in the heart of it, movies where the Jedi have a vast array of loving characters were always doomed because they were bound to be killed as to having a reason why they were not in the original trilogy).

 

[Dazzle Novak]

He has a complex relationship with her, possibly a familial one. Unlike Vader, who was mostly there to elucidate the perils of Luke's interaction with The Force and the potential downside of unprepared investigation of his newfound powers, Ben is a full fledged character. Possibly the most richly detailed and explored character of TFA.

Answer this for me. I'm not being rhetorical, I think this is a part I might be misremembering and/or misunderstanding.

What is with the "seduced by the light" horseshit? When do we see a single moment where he comes off as anything but Anakin 2.0 complete with Borderline Personality disorder?

Beyond that, what does the series gain by assuming one can be invested in his redemption arc? Sorry, but once you're rolling deep with Space Nazis on Starkiller Bases and murdering fan favorite smugglers, you're irredeemable. No amount of "sorry" can change his complicity in a five planet genocide. Never mind that he's not even likable in his evil.

Yes, a similar thing was done with Darth Vader but A)in the OT it was more about Luke coming to terms with his lineage and relationship with his father and B) the effort to frame the redemption as Vader's arc resulted in the prequels. If they wanted to do the whole conflicted Sith Lord thing, why not just copy Knights of the Old Republic. Imagine if Kylo Ren (rather than being an obviously unhinged temper-tantrum throwing nutcase) was genteel, kind, and charming, but fell to the Dark Side by committing war atrocities against a worse enemy. Hell, throw in the Star Forge while you're at it so we don't get a fucking Death Star 3.0 (but bigger!)

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Answer this for me. I'm not being rhetorical, I think this is a part I might be misremembering and/or misunderstanding.

What is with the "seduced by the light" horseshit? When do we see a single moment where he comes off as anything but Anakin 2.0 complete with Borderline Personality disorder?

He hadn't been "seduced by the light". He said he felt "the pull of the light". Indicating he felt a desire to do the right thing, which he was fighting against ardently. Mature, elder Vader is someone who is secure in his pathology. It isn't until Luke is at the brink of death that he snaps. Ben Solo has yet, at that point, to be completely subsumed by the Dark Side. That doesn't mean he's not evil, or doing evil things. It means his journey to the dark side isn't complete, and he's trying to force it in order to obliterate the uncertainty and insufficiency he feels. He's unsuccessful.

Beyond that, what does the series gain by assuming one can be invested in his redemption arc?

Who said it was a redemption arc? Is that the only way a morally compromised character can be interesting? Via a redemption arc?

 

[Dazzle Novak]

He hadn't been "seduced by the light". He said he felt "the pull of the light". Indicating he felt a desire to do the right thing, which he was fighting against ardently. Mature, elder Vader is someone who is secure in his pathology. It isn't until Luke is at the brink of death that he snaps. Ben Solo has yet, at that point, to be completely subsumed by the Dark Side. That doesn't mean he's not evil, or doing evil things. It means his journey to the dark side isn't complete, and he's trying to force it in order to obliterate the uncertainty and insufficiency he feels. He's unsuccessful.

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it. Vader was evil and it didn't matter if Lucas suggested he felt kinda bad about it. If you'll admit Kylo Ren is evil, it's pedantic to go, "Well, he's not as evil as he'd like to be." Who cares? What does it matter? Can you cite an instance where Ben shows a desire to do the right thing? You can speculate, and the creators can even insist, but Kylo Ren as depicted in the film doesn't exhibit any disposition toward goodness. Even the other Space Nazi troopers steer clear of that asshole. Likewise, we're given no reason as to why Ben was so enamored by Vader or the Empire in the first place. What's his goal other than to be the biggest dick possible (a goal I'd say he's pretty much accomplished).

Who said it was a redemption arc? Is that the only way a morally compromised character can be interesting? Via a redemption arc?

No, but what's an alternative story path for wallowing in his angsty confusion if he's just an irredeemable dick after all?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it.

Without delving into Star Wars and its own trademarked brand of mysticism, there's really no such thing as a "complete fall to evil". No one becomes so evil they cannot conceive of doing "good", or visa versa. There's no metric by which one becomes locked into evil acts, as if there were a meter on their arm slowly turning black and one day it was like "Fuck, I'm over 90! I guess I'm completely evil now".

Can you cite an instance where Ben shows a desire to do the right thing? You can speculate, and the creators can even insist, but Kylo Ren as depicted in the film doesn't exhibit any disposition toward goodness. Even the other Space Nazi troopers steer clear of that asshole. Likewise, we're given no reason as to why Ben was so enamored by Vader or the Empire in the first place. What's his goal other than to be the biggest dick possible (a goal I'd say he's pretty much accomplished).

We've only just had an introduction to these characters. I will express satisfaction or lack thereof with Ben Solo's arc when it's complete. After one film, I find the character promising, because we don't often get a villain who is sullen, insecure, and striving to be evil without even being fully convinced it's the right course of action. The villains in these fantasy operas tend to be Machiavellian mustache twirlers. Look at Palpatine. He's just evil because the dude digs being evil! Power and tyranny! Lots of cackling! He's fun, but he's not particularly nuanced.

No, but what's an alternative story path for wallowing in his angsty confusion if he's just an irredeemable dick after all?

I would suggest the language being employed here suggests you're not particularly receptive to alternative views of the character. It's like having someone who hates cheese demanding you explain to him why it's not disgusting.

 

[Something Amyss]

Fair, but nothing we see clarifies what a "complete" fall looks like versus one where, like Vader, one can still be snapped out of it.

Without delving into Star Wars and its own trademarked brand of mysticism, there's really no such thing as a "complete fall to evil". No one becomes so evil they cannot conceive of doing "good", or visa versa. There's no metric by which one becomes locked into evil acts, as if there were a meter on their arm slowly turning black and one day it was like "Fuck, I'm over 90! I guess I'm completely evil now".

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.