After getting and watching Force Awakens again...

[Dazzle Novak]

I would suggest the language being employed here suggests you're not particularly receptive to alternative views of the character. It's like having someone who hates cheese demanding you explain to him why it's not disgusting.

Even if I accept your premise that Kylo Ren is a particularly unique villain because the only alternative is a mustache-twirler (a premise I certainly don't accept), being open doesn't mean accepting everything I'm given. Okay, the people behind TFA tried something new. As is, it didn't work for me. I saw Anakin 2.0 truncated to a single film. I'm also not too fond of blockbuster juggernauts not bothering to strive for a level of completion many ninety minute films somehow manage simply because, "Eh, we've got two more films to figure it all out."

What if, and this may be crazy talk, sequels were used to further develop great standalones rather than seven hour exercises in patchy, serial storytelling?

Since TFA certainly isn't above cribbing ideas, I wonder why they didn't just, say, look at Zuko's arc in Avatar to nail a "sullen, insecure, and striving to be evil without being fully convinced it's the right course of action" character? Personally, I think "young adult" (and really that's a stretch given the character's like 29 years old) is too often portrayed in terms of teen angst. There's got to be something between "Byronic dreamboats who just can't get a grasp of these complicated feelings!" and "cackling maniacs". What if Kylo Ren was portrayed as an innately good guy, a chummy, "please and thank you" sort of bloke, who's compelled to commit heinous acts during war? That'd steer us away from yet another Skywalker who'd have benefitted from a therapist visit and some Ambien.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Even if I accept your premise that Kylo Ren is a particularly unique villain because the only alternative is a mustache-twirler (a premise I certainly don't accept), being open doesn't mean accepting everything I'm given.

I didn't suggest he was "particularly unique". He's unique in Star Wars space, certainly, at least the space given to us by the films. One can certainly draw an analogue to Anakin in the prequel trilogy, but that so was poorly written, poorly directed and poorly acted it might as well have not even happened at all.

I'm also not too fond of blockbuster juggernauts not bothering to strive for a level of completion many ninety minute films somehow manage simply because, "Eh, we've got two more films to figure it all out."

Perhaps because I've become accustomed to television as a primary medium of entertainment, "serial storytelling" does not strike me as unusual, or problematic. I have absolutely no issues with a film leaving plot threads dangling and characterization in a set-up phase. I will have a problem if, upon viewing the completed trilogy, I see no satsifying resolution to these things.

There's got to be something between "Byronic dreamboats who just can't get a grasp of these complicated feelings!" and "cackling maniacs".

I just want to commend you for this line, particularly "Byronic dreamboats". That was a good chuckle.

What if Kylo Ren was portrayed as an innately good guy, a chummy, "please and thank you" sort of bloke, who's compelled to commit heinous acts during war? That'd steer us away from yet another Skywalker who'd have benefitted from a therapist visit and some Ambien.

I'm sure this will aggravate, but the reason I bring up the Emperor is to boldly underscore the reality of the film series you are watching. I don't tune into a Star Wars film expecting Walter White. The primary villain of the first trilogy was called "Darth" and wore all black and ran around making fists and shouting orders in a menacing basso voice. His superior was a septuagenarian lunatic with sinister yellow eyes who shot lightning from his hands. The principles were a callow youth with a hero's blood pumping through his veins, a cocksure and irrepressibly charming scoundrel with a heart of the purest gold, and a literal fucking princess. It might sound like a cop-out to say "It's Star Wars, so it's dopey", but it's Star Wars, so it's dopey. There's a certain...broadness...and simplicity expected from both the characterization and the storytelling. I would argue that's part of its essential appeal. One part vaguely outlined mysticism, one part simple archetypal storytelling, and several heaving dollops of Rule of Cool. Naturally I don't think this is Great Cinema. It's serial fantasy. It's crowd pleasing spectacle. I'm genuinely confused by people who come out wondering why characters aren't more robustly textured, or why planet sized super weapons don't obey the rules of science, or why Finn doesn't show more aggressive signs of PTSD as if they had attended a screening of Zero Dark Thirty.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The Bits on Poe

So, J.J. was basically re-creating Episode 4, but he didn't really understand one of the best parts of the whole series. (The Luke/Han/Leia dynamic.)

Okay, it's official. I'm pretty certain every issue I have with this film can be laid directly at Abrams' feet. Though what could I expect from the dipstick who put Khan in Star Trek: Into Darkness? It's pretty much a given he has no idea what made any of these things so good in the first place.

 

[Frankster]

Other than that boxy speeder she uses in the first scene she's in?

*looks up Rey+speeder and finds a pic* I'll be the son of a wookie, yer right. Well I hold up my hands and admit I somehow missed that speeder and honestly just remembered her walking on foot all the time whenever she was shown. Unless the speeder is show for like one scene and never again then this is a bit embarrassing.

However no to the rest. I could learn to drive by taking lessons because I can afford it and there's one thing that was shown about Rey that I'm pretty sure I'm right on it's that she's a thug living the hard knock life without access to anything fancy besides what she has made for herself, we are talking about a girl who can barely afford food after all.

But none of this matters because I'm afraid this wasn't what you said:

But Rey, who spent TWENTY YEARS on Jakku around spaceships, can't possibly be a good pilot because... ???

You asked very specifically why Rey can't be a good pilot due to spending 20 years around spaceships, and that's the answer:because being around crashed spaceships has 0 relation with learning how to fly. She could have spent 200 years on Jahku and that still wouldn't have been a satisfactory explanation on how she learned to fly though it would certainly explain if she had an encyclopedic knowledge of ship classes and their quirks.
Ultimately this isn't a big deal really though, but can you at least understand why some people did not see her flying aptitude coming and might have been under the initial impression she was a poor flier and until she hopped into the falcon, she would rely on other characters for it? I stand by my first impressions that I thought Poe/Rey/Finn were going to be like a trio where every character did something else the other two couldn't and they would be like the lost vikings, needing to switch out with each other to face particular tasks. Sadly I was quickly proven wrong :/

Also cmon I know we laugh at them poor TIE pilots but they are professionals who were taught how to fly and go through flight school, yeah I'd expect them to outfly a total noob and be a litmus test for being at least a somewhat competent flier at least.

I tried to make a chart showing different levels of aptitudes at flying but when I placed Poe on the chart it just exploded in my face. I think Poe shouldn't even be considered a mere pilot, he is more like Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel, flying is his brush and space is his canvas, with the screams and terror of his enemies being the paint.

 

[Frankster]

I apologize if this goes against the rules to post twice in a row, but my post was getting lengthy and I was talking to several different people so figured it would be classier to cut my post in 2.

Hell, I'll do you one better and say I was complaining about Gary Stuism in Abram's Nu-Trek where Kirk is made captain (...) What's frustrating about the Rey praise is that it's premised on so much revisionism.

Eugh Nu Kirk. Sadly I don't feel the same level of investment in Trek as I do Wars so can't quite summon the same amount of vitriol, but I share your disgust. I haven't even bothered watching the 2nd film, though the sadistic Mortal Kombat fan in me quite enjoyed the various gruesome deaths such crew being sucked out whilst in warp transit in the first.

As for the historical revisionism, for sure there's a lot of it when it's convenient to the person making the statement.

I'm actually letting a LOT of comments fly past unchallenged even though I'm pretty sure they are wrong because otherwise I'd be here all day and don't want to have my nerd musings take up 3/4 of every page in this discussion, so just sticking to those I reckon I can turn into somewhat lulzy rants. Ok I'll do ONE just because it's gonna bug me otherwise:

[
And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Could you expand on this a bit please? Specifically when Leia was able to resist it, and when Darth Vader employed it.
In the CW comics (still cannon), Anakin Skywalker is supposed to suck hard at force persuasion, it was a recurrent meme that he would try and fail at it only for Obi Wan to tut his head and be all "you've got much to learn my young padawan" then goes and aces it.
But even during the trilogy, long before the comics were written, I'm pretty sure you never see Vader use it, otherwise why would he bother with torture droids in general? Heck he could just have extracted info straight from Hans mind in the second film then. Not saying plot holes ain't impossible, but if Vader does show this ability in the films you're going to have to refresh my memory a bit.

Otherwise as for shrugging it off, ehhh kinda depends I guess. Stormtroopers are said specifically to be weak minded because of their indoctrination so it seems to imply its a willpower thing, which combined with the knowledge that not all Jedi was proficient at it even on "easy" targets such as our friend Anakin makes me believe the jedi mink trick works something like roll wisdom+mind trick skill level vs target's willpower save. Just my own theory though.
So in TFA, I have no trouble with her resisting Kylo Ren (he clearly fumbled his rolls whilst Rey aced her willpower test) but her then using the mind trick on even a stormtrooper made me raise an eye brow as I thought she was a lvl 0 jedi. Still it's possible that isn't the case and she did have prior jedi training so we shall wait and see on that...

This would solve politics because under regional rule the local star systems have a say on what goes on in the military structure and can use them as a general impartial policing force.

This sounds disturbingly close to the Moff system the Empire used, are you an enemy of freedom Timedraven? -^

Btw do you remember how the Republic fell in the first place? Because they had no army or fleet of their own (because it got disbanded prior, lol), so when an external enemy did come (the CIS) they were utterly defenseless and had to rely on this clone army conveniently made just in time...

Also it makes sense why pirates and scum of all kinds are much more willing to help the rebels/republic doesn't it? :3
The old EU was even worst in this regard, I remember in the Thrawn series he almost successfully wipes out a ton of pirates and smugglers at their meeting, and they get all rage full and go "we will join the new republic, they are the good guys whereas the empire just wants to kill us and stop our piratey ways!". I was like..dafuq? How is Thrawn the bad guy here? And how is the New Republic the good guys by welcoming these folks into their arms?
This is Pirates of the Carribean "pirates are all about freedom and liberty!" all over again.

I tell you, Palpatine was right. The republic is just a fail of a system and all it does is protect a certain cushy pampered elite who get to feel and sound important in their senate or at the head of their respective governments but are completely useless and often have to resort to underhanded means such as using their wealth and influence to fund a resistance/terrorist (depends on which side you're on) movement. Really the Republic is all about the 1%. OCCUPY CORUSCANT.
Bonus rant: remember the Alderaanians? If you go to that world in the MMO it's actually a feudal society with the vast majority of the population working hard under the oppressive heel of families who have been in ruling positions for as long as they can remember. So having an Alderaanian noble like Bail or Leia Organa lecture you about freedom, equality and democracy is a bit like having Cersei Lannister from Game of Thrones lecture you on how to be a fair and beloved queen who only thinks about the welfare of her subjects.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

[
And resisting force mindfuckery isn't all that special. There are many times where people easily shrug off force influence even from masters, and I think we can say with confidence that at least Leia has shown an ability to resist such mindfuckery from Darth Vader, who is unquestionably more powerful than Kylo Ren. So not special either.

Could you expand on this a bit please? Specifically when Leia was able to resist it, and when Darth Vader employed it.

When Darth Vader tortured her for information about the rebel base. I didn't say that we can say it for sure, but it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation. I also think it states that other people had tried and failed.

I think there is at least a strong chance that Darth Vader tried the trick and it didn't work. As for why he uses the interrogation droid, Darth Vader is not arrogant like Kylo Ren. He doesn't assume he can do everything perfectly and on his own. He rarely if ever oversteps his limits and always takes advantage of anything that might tip the balance in his favor. Anakin is a very different story, but it seems since his days of arrogant youth Darth Vader has learned self control and restraint.

 

[Frankster]

it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation.

This would imply he also tried this in Empire with captured Han Solo and even Chewbecca, which would mean either Vader really isn't adept at this skill(perhaps his suit interferes with certain abilities?) or...it's not that hard to resist even whilst you're being tortured since you only see it used on a Stormtrooper in the films who, again, is said specifically to be weak minded. Ok I'm beginning to see how you'd arrive at your conclusion even if I don't quite agree with it.

I guess if I were to forget external sources and limit myself only to the films, I might agree it's a reasonable assumption but if we are going by what could have happened off screen with no clear visual hint we could just as easily say Vader interrogated Leia via wedgies and wet willies and other schoolyard bullying antics. He is after all a master of the dark arts who would use any technique at his disposal.
...
You know what, I actually like this idea and enjoy the mental image, carry on.

Joking aside I suppose this is simply a question of how faith you put in supplementary materials, since Disney proved it's well possible to have a source of cannon info you'd rely on for more then a decade suddenly made obsolete and replace it by something else entirely, I'm not quite willing to go all "look! it says on p357 of this that Vader doesn't know how to do a jedi mind trick" as a checkmate argument. Especially as in this case my sources involved Anakin rather then Vader and do agree with you that his dip in the lava cooled down his hot headness somewhat and he has had plenty of time to develop new tricks.
I suppose I just liked the idea that Vader had this big specific weakness in his jedi curriculum and dislike the idea that Han,Leia and Chewbecca all resisted the mind trick whilst the poor random mooks get mind tricked super easily (i can at least understand for leia but the other two ain't even force users!), but sadly until I learn to make reality bend to my whims, that doesn't make it truth.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I'd actually disagree...to a certain extent.

Being able to stop a blaster bolt in mid-air, and later taking a center-mass hit with a bowcaster and surviving, let alone still being combat-effective, indicates he either has a natural talent for absorb/dissipate, or is highly trained in it. The same goes for his skill with telekinesis, and telepathy. He's unrefined, but no slouch by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, on the other hand he blows at drawing upon the Dark Side, having to aggravate his own wounds to do it.

Those are actually hinges of my original point. He's not sufficiently Dark enough to be effective. One can be powerful, raw, but unrefined. I get the feeling Ren is a born Light side user and absolutely crippled when it comes to Dark side usage. He can, but its so far against his nature it actually weakens him. I can be wrong but it feels like he's trying so hard to be a bad guy, but it just isn't working out for him. Cosplaying Vader but not quite getting things right.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I could learn to drive by taking lessons because I can afford it and there's one thing that was shown about Rey that I'm pretty sure I'm right on it's that she's a thug living the hard knock life without access to anything fancy besides what she has made for herself, we are talking about a girl who can barely afford food after all.

As per the novelization, she had access to an old flight simulator that she spent excessive amounts of time with, due to literally not having anything else to do in her spare time. While this would have been good context to add to the film, I'm genuinely not sure the film needed anything more than "I'm a pilot, I know how to fly ships". Why would we not take someone at their word? We get a snapshot of Rey's life on the planet, but we're given no reason to believe it's a summation of her entire existence there. I've flown before, never off planet, I was surprised by my own success during that chase sequence. And later on, it's revealed I'm a force user, and canonically force users are preternaturally good at everything because they passively see into the future without realizing it. Both canonically and in-film it's reasonably established.

Also cmon I know we laugh at them poor TIE pilots but they are professionals who were taught how to fly and go through flight school, yeah I'd expect them to outfly a total noob and be a litmus test for being at least a somewhat competent flier at least.

That's troopers for you. I don't know what kind of training program the Order/Empire puts them through, but it needs better quality control.

But even during the trilogy, long before the comics were written, I'm pretty sure you never see Vader use it, otherwise why would he bother with torture droids in general?

Can Dark Side force users even do it at all? Do we ever see one doing it, in all seven films? Even guys who would be natural fits at it? I'm sure Palpatine or Dooku might have given it a shot...it suits them...but if memory serves they relied on more traditional forms of manipulation, along with Anakin being a thundering dumbass for plot purposes. The old "mind trick" might be a Jedi-specific thing. What Kylo Ren does in TFA doesn't resemble the "Jedi mind trick" at all. It's more of an aggressive, probing, dark side mind-buggering.

Still it's possible that isn't the case and she did have prior jedi training so we shall wait and see on that...

I subscribe to the theory that Rey has had prior training that was subsumed/blocked (and possibly awakened by Kylo Ren poking around in there), and even I think that scene was handled poorly. Not the stare/down initial conversation, but the mind-trick scene. She seems to come upon the idea out of nowhere, and it's a bit jarring. Even if she'd made a request, and gotten a surprising reaction, and made further more ludicrous requests...that would've been fine. Something to imply the testing of a surprising power. Even if it was one she already possessed.

 

[DefunctTheory]

It's worth pointing out that at least Obi-Wan thought that Vader was irredeemable. Twice. And this seems to be Yoda's belief in at least the prequels. So this seems to be our metric for "complete fall to evil."

Fair, but also fair to note is that they A) both turned out to be incorrect, and B) Obi-Wan in particular was being more than a little stroppy when he said that.

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't know. If I'd been dead for two movies and was stuck in a swamp with a strange talking frog, I'd be a little upset, too.

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

You see? You can't trust a word that guy says. "From a certain point of view". FFS.

Seriously, Obi-Wan was an A-Grade Asshole. It's exactly that kind of shit that got Jedi a bad reputation in the first place.

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

it seems extremely unlikely that if such a trick exists then Darth Vader, at that time a master of the dark side, would have at least some ability with it. Plus, that would give us a good reason why Darth Vader himself performed the interrogation.

This would imply he also tried this in Empire with captured Han Solo and even Chewbecca, which would mean either Vader really isn't adept at this skill(perhaps his suit interferes with certain abilities?) or...it's not that hard to resist even whilst you're being tortured since you only see it used on a Stormtrooper in the films who, again, is said specifically to be weak minded. Ok I'm beginning to see how you'd arrive at your conclusion even if I don't quite agree with it.

In Empire though the only reason he tortured Han (and likely chewie) was to get Luke to come to his friends aid. Unless I am mistaken I don't think he was looking for any information, just to cause enough pain to get Luke's attention through force sensitivity.

I think the dark side mind fuckery is probably harder to resist than the mind trick, it seems to be a much more direct and brutal form of coercion (the dark side of the mind trick, if you will.) My personal theory is that people naturally strong in the force (Leia, Rey) have a strong natural defense against it even untrained. Which is why Kylo Ren was so sure he could pull it off, he probably never had to extract information from a person so strong in the force.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah... if my afterlife was hanging out with a toad who only spoke in riddles in a swamp, forced to haunt some uppity little brat who bitched all the time, I'd be pissy too.

I'd be all "you know what? Screw it! Fall to the Dark Side! Maybe one of those death stars will blow this swamp planet up!"

You see? You can't trust a word that guy says. "From a certain point of view". FFS.

Seriously, Obi-Wan was an A-Grade Asshole. It's exactly that kind of shit that got Jedi a bad reputation in the first place.

#notalljedi

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Those are actually hinges of my original point. He's not sufficiently Dark enough to be effective. One can be powerful, raw, but unrefined. I get the feeling Ren is a born Light side user and absolutely crippled when it comes to Dark side usage. He can, but its so far against his nature it actually weakens him. I can be wrong but it feels like he's trying so hard to be a bad guy, but it just isn't working out for him. Cosplaying Vader but not quite getting things right.

That's getting a bit into a more philosophical discussion about the nature of the Dark Side, that honestly I don't feel there's enough of the "new canon" to substantiate one way or the other. That being, whether or not some individuals are naturally-disposed to Light or Dark, and that disposition informs how powerful of a Force wielder they can be in either -- contrary, I'll add, to established (Lucas) canon of the Dark Side as a omnipresent corruptive force to which all Force-sensitives (even Yoda, as demonstrated in Clone Wars season 6) are susceptible, and personal disposition only made individuals more easily seduced rather than limited their power.

Of course, on the other hand the Mortis trilogy of Clone Wars muddies the water somewhat.

 

[Megalodon]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots? While they tended to lose to the Rebels in the end, they were hardly a cakewalk for Luke, Wedge and co. in IV-VI. The point being, Rey outflies trained, professional fighter pilots in a vehicle she's not only never flown before, but (as may have been pointed out earlier in this thread) should have written off before getting it off the ground (grinding along the ground like that can't be good for the fuselage).

Going from 'I can't even successfully take off' to 'I can pilot this thing through a bunch of wreckage while under fire', in the same flight no less,is some hefty plot armour, even by 'protagonist' standards.

 

[DefunctTheory]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots?

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, there's a billion of the bastards. Unlike real life, where there's heavy competition to become a jet pilot, it seems like the only qualification necessary to be a TIE pilot is a willingness to jump into a space craft with minimal to no shields and a basic level of competence in three dimensional movement.

A TIE doesn't even have proper landing gear, IIRC.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

And again, she outflew TIE pilots. That's hardly a litmus test for being a "space ace."

Have I missed something here? What's inherently sucky about TIE pilots? While they tended to lose to the Rebels in the end, they were hardly a cakewalk for Luke, Wedge and co. in IV-VI. The point being, Rey outflies trained, professional fighter pilots in a vehicle she's not only never flown before, but (as may have been pointed out earlier in this thread) should have written off before getting it off the ground (grinding along the ground like that can't be good for the fuselage).

Going from 'I can't even successfully take off' to 'I can pilot this thing through a bunch of wreckage while under fire', in the same flight no less,is some hefty plot armour, even by 'protagonist' standards.

Sure they are 'trained, professional fighter pilots'. Of course we saw what the famed precision of Imperial stormtroopers meant in the original series so I don't think comparing heroes to stormtroopers or other imperial mooks really proves anything.