Agent Orange (the chemical)

[Silva]

A good subject to study. The Vietnam War is not taught in the American education system for a reason - it's not patriotic to do so. Much the same as not teaching about the Holocaust in Germany is not patriotic. And yes, I realise that this was in some ways on a smaller scale. But I'll point out an interesting fact: more bombs were dropped by weight in the Vietnam War than in the entirety of World War II.

Eh I guess America sorta won with an outcome like that..

If you define "win" by how many innocent children you kill, maim and disable forever, then yes, that's a win. I on the other hand find that a disgusting thing to admire, and a loss for humanity as a whole. But then, a loss for humanity has been considered a gain for America for a long time, hasn't it?

 

[Brett Alex]

Its more than just following the "rules", its hard to keep your army motivated when they know they are slaughtering helpless civilians. People go to war because they think it is the right thing to do, its hard to fit genocide into that.

An even better point than my own.

 

[la-le-lu-li-lo]

Ever seen Jacob's Ladder?
Even though unreal, it really says it all.

Just typed in Agent Orange into Google images.
...wow. That's fucking awful.

 

[uncle-ellis]

good job america,you mutated a baby.

*sings American national anthem while stroking a bald eagle and eating apple pie*

The first time I heard of agent orange was A green lantern character.

 

[Baconator96]

good lord, the woman in that wiki article looks like a camel!

 

[rabidmidget]

i think we can all agree that the vietnam war was a horrible war with many brutal casualties

 

[bluepilot]

The people of Viatnam deserve justice for the atrocity they have suffered as a result of agent orange.

Imagine if your child was born like that. All of those babies should have been born healthy.

Well done.

 

[Motti]

A massive tragedy . . . from the ultimate weed-killer. Whose brilliant idea was it to spread a chemical that caused birth defects over a large area like that?

While it's probably very popular to hate the vietnam war (thanks to mister napalm and agent orange), it was actually semi-justified. Sure, some of the acts committed in it weren't, but the war itself was justified. South Korea had to be helped under SEATO. What were they meant to do, just abandon their ally and watch? So America and it's allies in the war (australia, nz, south korea, the philippines, thailand, spain and taiwan) went in. Then it degenerated into one of the biggest military clusterfucks, possibly second only to the whole of World War One and the charge of the light brigade. The politicians couldn't decide what to do so they just dithered and waited for the next election until it became somebody else's problem.
/rant

What were we talking about again?

 

[SimpleChimp]

Daisy Cutters are fine to, they both do the same thing really. However, nothing quite matches that psychological terror that is Napalm. ('cept for Willie Pete that is)

Don't even get started on the willie pete.

That shit is just evidence that man hates EVERYbody

Its made to illuminate the enemy at night and for signaling... Yes it tends to light a lot more up but thats besides the point.

You forgot the number one use, concealment. Willie Pete creates a nice thick smoke cloud very quickly. Handy if you need to move across open terrain.

Yes indeed, the two primary purposes were for concealment and illumination. I wonder how they figured out how dangerous it was on human skin.

A big cloud of chemical fire! The only way to stop the burn is a special salve right?

Because any air causes the white phosphorus to burst into violent flame.

 

[LockHeart]

Daisy Cutters are fine to, they both do the same thing really. However, nothing quite matches that psychological terror that is Napalm. ('cept for Willie Pete that is)

Don't even get started on the willie pete.

That shit is just evidence that man hates EVERYbody

Its made to illuminate the enemy at night and for signaling... Yes it tends to light a lot more up but thats besides the point.

You forgot the number one use, concealment. Willie Pete creates a nice thick smoke cloud very quickly. Handy if you need to move across open terrain.

Yes indeed, the two primary purposes were for concealment and illumination. I wonder how they figured out how dangerous it was on human skin.

A big cloud of chemical fire! The only way to stop the burn is a special salve right?

Because any air causes the white phosphorus to burst into violent flame.

Well flares are usually quite controlled, unless they land on something of course...

However, when used in smoke grenades it's relatively harmless - it has roughly the same toxicity as fuel oil fumes. I think the trick is to just not stand in a massive cloud of smoke for too long

 

[Soxafloppin]

I thought agent orange was a cleaning product. No?

 

[Kollega]

I hate America and wish it unpleasant death.

See? The point of this thread is anti-americanism. Told you.

People forget that we could be much worse off. What if The Third Reich and Japanese Empire were current greatest superpowers? America is a fluffy kingdom of love and benevolence when compared to REAL bad guys,who killed innocent (and frequently their own) civilians FOR FUN.

Besides,Agent Orange is herbicide,not a chemical weapon. If they knew it was poisonous,they wouldn't use it.

 

[ace_of_something]

My father served in Viet Nam. Every one of his friends from his unit (marine corps) that made it back has died of because of exposure to agent orange. They all died the same way. They'd get pancreatic or stomach cancer get over it. Than it would come back 6 months later and kill them in a timeframe between a few days and half a month.

I have a twinge of fear every time my father mentions having stomach pain.

 

[ace_of_something]

A good subject to study. The Vietnam War is not taught in the American education system for a reason - it's not patriotic to do so.

Maybe it's just midwestern red states but in my rural high school... we went over vietnam a lot. Granted this was 15 years ago when people who fought in viet nam were teaching the history classess...

 

[lostclause]

Who cares? Compared to cluster bombs, mines and all other types of ordinance that gets left behind that still kill people, Agent Orange is comparatively harmless. Yes it's sad but there are far worse things used regularly.

 

[Specter_]

so they killed millions to stop communist infiltration of our precious body fluids!

I see what you did there... and I like it...

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Should the US pay compensation? Sure. Should the US pay compensation to the vietnam government? Hmmm, maybe. Should the US pay money to children who have been affected by this disease? Well, if they were nice, sure. The most you could hope for is help cleaning up the remaining sites.

There you go, Neonbob. There's the discussion. Should the US government pay compensation to the (guardians of the) children affected? How do you identify victims and distinguish them from "background noise" of random birth defects? Should you? Would it be better to just accept paying for any child born defective of whose grandparents and parents at least one was exposed to a US chemical weapon at some point? How much should be paid? Medical fees? A living wage? A flat rate or compensation scaled to severity?

Hey teacher, I have a question! Isn't Agent Orange against the Geneva Convention? Is it considered a bio or chemical weapon?

Burning forests [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm]

The contemporary law of armed conflict [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=tcTmAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Geneva+Conventions+protocol+plant+life&source=bl&ots=v6kBAOLBjM&sig=uopYDLB1-Lc6RP5j9dbtm-6phg8&hl=en&ei=HpJ9SvOKLdXRjAeZzaXxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=Geneva%20Conventions%20protocol%20plant%20life&f=false]:

Since the law of armed conflict now seeks to protect the environment by the prohibition to use any means or method of warfare which is intended or may be expected to cause widespread, long-term and severe damage thereto, care must be taken to ensure that any such damage does not prejudice the health or survival of the population. ... Environmental modification techniques are defined as any technique for changing, through the deliberate manipulation of natural processes, the dynamics, composition or structure of the eart, including its biota, lithosphere, hydrosphere and atmosphere, or outer space.

biota: animal and plant life, thus forbidding long-term defoliation and the like.

The Oxford Companion to American Military History [http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/soman.aspx#1O126-ChemicalndBlgclWpnsndWrfr]:

Chemical warfare is the military use of lethal, harassing, or incapacitating chemicals specifically designed to harm or to kill; biological warfare is the use of disease‐causing bacteria, viruses, rickettsia, or fungi; toxin warfare is the use of poisonous chemical substances naturally produced by living organisms, such as the highly lethal cobra toxin. These agents can be used to target humans, animals, and plants. The use of all such weapons has been condemned in customary and international law.

Malaysians For Peace [http://www.phixelcode.com/clients/peace/european-organizations-urge-support-for-vietnam-on-tenth-anniversary-of-chemical-weapons-convention/]:

To coemorate the tenth anniversary of the international Chemical Weapons Convention which entered into force on 29 April 1997, eight European associations of friendship and solidarity with the people of Vietnam have adopted the Public Appeal of International Lawyers concerning the Responsibility of the United States towards Vietnam (see attachment), and have committed themselves to circulating it widely throughout the world.

The people and environment of Vietnam were subjected by the United States to chemical warfare on a massive scale during the period from 1961 to 1971. The tragic consequences persist to this day and will continue for generations to come. Although the Chemical Weapons Convention was not in force at the time, it is indisputable that the United States has a moral obligation to ameliorate the human and ecological catastrophe it inflicted during its war of aggression against Vietnam.

... in 1966 the U.S. National Institute of Health established a link between exposure to Agent Orange and ?ten diseases (sarcoma, lymphoma, leukaemia, Hodgkin?s disease, cancers of the respiratory tract and prostate, multiple myelomas, type 2 diabetes, delayed-onset cutaneous porphyria, acute and subacute neuropathic diseases).

Taking into account the terrible ecological consequences of the sprayings: 43% of cultivated areas were poisoned; 60% of the hevea plantations and 36% of the mangrove forests were destroyed, the restoration of which will require more than one hundred years ...

... preliminary documents of the Geneva Protocol as well as the interpretations of the U.S. authorities of that time show that the aim of the text was to forbid the use of any kind of gases and that the U.N. General Assembly confirmed this interpretation in its resolution 2603 A (XXIV) of 16 December 1969, in which it declares that it is contrary to the generally accepted rules of international law as they are stated in the Protocol signed in Geneva on 17 June 1925, to use in international wars : a) all chemical agents of war? due to their direct toxic effects on humans, animals or plants.

The time is right for makin' your mind up.

 

[LongLiveourMachine]

good job america,you mutated a baby.

I know, were just that awesome.

 

[Echo_419]

There was a good Docu called Agent Orange. Its worth a look if you wanna know more about it. Also did that film Jacobs Ladder have something to do with it?

 

[Shoqiyqa]

I hate America and wish it unpleasant death.

See? The point of this thread is anti-americanism. Told you.

People forget that we could be much worse off. What if The Third Reich and Japanese Empire were current greatest superpowers? America is a fluffy kingdom of love and benevolence when compared to REAL bad guys,who killed innocent (and frequently their own) civilians FOR FUN.

Besides,Agent Orange is herbicide,not a chemical weapon. If they knew it was poisonous,they wouldn't use it.

Yes, of course, you're absolutely right about everything, and so are Hannity and Colmes.

If anyone criticised a past action of any other country, that'd be fine and maybe we could discuss it, and of course if an *trumpet fanfare* American criticised something another country did, that'd be just dandy and of course the *trumpet fanfare* American would be absolutely right, but if anybody, anywhere, whether in *drum roll* The United States Of America *orchestra hit* or not, criticises anything *drum roll* The United States Of America *orchestra hit* has done, that's a clear expression of a desire to see *drum roll* The United States Of America *orchestra hit* burned, levelled, irradiated, turned into a desert, wiped form the map and destroyed, the Jews driven into the sea, every church on the planet burned, science abandoned, the whole world go back to the dark ages, babies murdered in the streets, children raped, Islam take over everywhere, women be subjugated and made to wear the burka, non-Muslims be taxed, white people be exterminated and everyone be subject to totalitarian communist rule by rich sheikhs, because *drum roll* The United States Of America *orchestra hit* is holy, and any criticism at all is blasphemy ... obviously.

Meanwhile, if you really must sit around eating worms to show just how much everybody hates you, please do it somewhere else. You're going to kill the grass if you sit and cry on my lawn for another four days.

Oh, and here, you'll want this for your pity party: