Aim-Down-Sight is unnecessary for realism

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JochemHippie

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From which planet are you that your eyes are that far apart? o_O

Anywho, I like it.
Infact I'd like it more, even closer to the irons. Putting your eye to the irons, instead of zooming in on the irons in your screen.
 

Techno Squidgy

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Abandon4093 said:
ElPatron said:
Techno Squidgy said:
I just can't quite visualise someone walking around with their eyes always down the sights. It just doesn't seem right.
But it is right.
No it's not.

Trained combatants shoulder weapons when they expect contact but they don't aim down the sight unless they're aiming at something.
This is more what I thought. You'd have the gun shouldered properly, but wouldn't move your eyes to the sights until actually aiming. Though that probably wouldn't work too well in a game to shift your view point when you aim as when I play I tend to have already started lining up the shot before I even bring the sights up. I dunno, I've kind of grown bored of this discussion now, I think ADS in games is fine as it is.

Perhaps introduce the viewpoint shift for something like ARMA or Red Orchestra.
 

TrevHead

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Iron Sights are fine in stop and pop FPS games. But can go to hell in traditional run and gunners
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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ADS isn't there for realism, it's to give the option of slower movement for more accuracy. Some might even call if a gameplay mechanic. If it was about realism, they'd have a number of other stupid ways you can look at your gun, like side-on held in front of you with two hands, because you can do that in real life.
 

Treblaine

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NLS said:
Treblaine said:
Draech said:
List of very popular PC games without any standardised ADS mechanic:
-Left 4 dead 1 & 2
-Team Fortress 2
-Half Life series
-Tribes Ascend
-Quake Live
-FEAR and FEAR Combat
-STALKER series (OK, a little bit of ADS, sometimes)
-Minecraft? (it's got a bow)

I think it is the mouse and lack of Aim-assist which is a factor.
STALKER has ADS for sure, not just "a little bit, sometimes", it's there on all weapons.
First FEAR didn't have ADS, however IIRC it had a slight zoom for all weapons (where your weapon stays to your side), FEAR 2 and 3 both had ADS.
When charging your bow in Minecraft, your FoV changes and your aim slows down, not too far away from ADS.

Also, don't mix in ADS with aim-assist and "poor console controls". Left 4 Dead 1/2 had aim-assist on consoles, yet they don't have ADS.

And as a bonus, I'll mention ArmA 2. What? A very popular realistic PC exclusive game that doesn't have aim-assist, yet it has ADS? Yes.
My point about aim-assist was not it existing at all, but the way it is used in COD and so many console games of having the ADS as a cue for a much more powerful ADS "stickiness". Not that ADS comes with aim assist necessarily, but that the most popular form of aim-assist comes with ADS.

And though STALKER did have aim-down-sights for some weapons (though I'm sure loads of them didn't), it still had such tight crosshairs, tighter than you could get just from "feeling" where the weapon was being pointed and accurate enough for general use. Almost as if the right eye was aiming down the sight always telling where the barrel was pointing.

I definitely think modern games don't need Aim-down-sights to be modern or current or up to the current standards of realism, except maybe for the console port where the ADS mechanic would be there just to compensate for the lack of mouse aim speed/precision. It CAN have ADS, but it's not a vital component.
 

ElPatron

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Honestly this is one of the best sighting systems I have ever seen in a game. Zoom is minimal, the ironsights/optics are not locked to the center of the screen, etc.

I would love tho see how this would work on a console.

Abandon4093 said:
Go get a broom or something, shoulder it and then shove your cheek right up against it and tell me it wouldn't inhibit movement.

Shouldering a weapon =/= cheeking it.
Why use a broom when I went out of my way just to handle a real stock this morning? There is literally a difference of an inch or so between keeping my neck straight and just press my cheek to the stock. My point of view shifts a little to the side.

It does not inhibit movement. Maybe I am just talented, maybe I am doing something wrong.

But it does not magically restrict my movements any more than a shouldered rifle/shotgun.

Pyro Paul said:
But the thing is the distance you usually use unsighted shooting in is the distance we see portrayed in video games.
However the use of Counter-Strike style crosshairs allow for near pinpoint accuracy at longer ranges. I can't get headshots from 25m away in real life.

Treblaine said:
And though STALKER did have aim-down-sights for some weapons (though I'm sure loads of them didn't), it still had such tight crosshairs, tighter than you could get just from "feeling" where the weapon was being pointed and accurate enough for general use. Almost as if the right eye was aiming down the sight always telling where the barrel was pointing.
I never got to finish STALKER but most initial guns had ironsights. After that there were a lot of optics.

I don't remember the crosshairs being tight, and using crosshairs was almost impossible in that game. Maybe we played different STALKER games or mods, but trying to use the crosshairs = waste of ammo after 7 meters.


Techno Squidgy said:
This is more what I thought. You'd have the gun shouldered properly, but wouldn't move your eyes to the sights until actually aiming.
There is no right or wrong. It heavily depends on your school of thought.

If I expect a target to appear, I am not going to look trough the sights when the target shows up. I just keep the eyes on the sights because of my personal preference - it allows me to shoot quicker.

The_Blue_Rider said:
Why do some many people have a problem with ADS, but not guns having a zoom function? (Not zoom as in with a scope, zoom as in the camera just moves forward a bit, giving you a bit more accuracy).

They are the same goddamn thing, its just one of them actually has a separate animation. If my recollection is correct a lot of PC games have a zoom feature with their guns
Operation Flashpoint even has both zoom and ironsights. During zoom you have some crude "ironsights" painted on your HUD.

Which is much better than having a bulls-eye painted on the center of the screen.
 

Treblaine

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Pyro Paul said:
Aww, come on. "from the Cheek" and "from the shoulder" are so close.

Still the thing is I can see why you couldn't find ANY game characters shooting from the cheek is how polygon models look crap when you try to get in that tight. The models are stiff and don't deform and bend very realistically. The cheek just clips through the gun model.

I am going by the perspective and position seen in the first-person view-model, not the third person viewmodel which can have all sorts of inconsistencies.

I'm not saying it's right on, but it's so damn close.

I'm just pointing out how there there can be aiming without a decidated aim-down-sight perspective,

The_Blue_Rider said:
Why do some many people have a problem with ADS, but not guns having a zoom function? (Not zoom as in with a scope, zoom as in the camera just moves forward a bit, giving you a bit more accuracy).

They are the same goddamn thing, its just one of them actually has a separate animation. If my recollection is correct a lot of PC games have a zoom feature with their guns
Well the "zoom" thing is not that widely implemented in game and more rarely used, I always found walk/crouch key to be as effective in shrinking crosshairs in games where such a mechanic is used.

The thing about ADS (as it is usually implemented) is how it breaks the flow of the play, a critical pause in ability to fire for a quarter/third of a second is annoying, even though the gun should be shouldered the whole time with my finger over the trigger and my eye is inches from the rear sight if not already looking through it.

And the weapon often being made so inaccurate without using ADS, yet to use it I suddenly move as slow as if someone tied my shoelaces together.

This might be fitting for some weapons like a sniper rifle or a heavy machine gun, BUT NOT EVERY WEAPON!
 

Treblaine

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Higgs303 said:
Treblaine said:
I tried using a couple of my rifles to test your theory, but it doesn't really work. Obviously, there is a parallax effect when switching from right eye closed to left eye closed. However, if I line up the iron sights with my right eye, the rifle appears far larger in my left field of vision than what you propose it to be. With my left eye, the visual field is still largely obscured by the rifle and the sights appear at far less of an angle than what is typically represented as the non-ADS view of the player's firearm. Any videogame which stayed true to your proposal (right FOV represented by the reticle while weapon model represents the left FOV) would be extremely irritating/impractical as the majority of the screen would constantly be obscured by the weapon model.

By forcing the player to take a moment to switch to ADS view, it realistically simulates that a combatant cannot constantly keep his/her weapon sights perfectly aligned at all times. Soldiers are trained to keep their weapon shouldered (ie sights are not aligned in either left or right fov, no cheek weld) while scanning for targets. When a target is found, the soldier repositions his/her weapon and head to form a cheek weld and align the sights. If stationary or moving very slowly, you can scan for targets by peering slightly above the sights without breaking your cheekweld, but if a videogame is attempting to simulate movement through a battlefield or a zombie apocalypse (rather than hunting from a deerstand or shooting paper from a bench), a toggleable shouldered position to cheekweld would be the most sensible choice. The current ADS systems is not perfect, the shouldered position often shows too much of the firearm, the ironsight view often does not obsure enough of the screen, and the standard FOV simulated on a computer screen or TV is not the same as that of the human eye (hence the rather awkward zoom feature found in the ADS view of Red Orchestra 2, the weapon sights are shifted to the FOV created by the human eye). Anyways, these ADS systems are FAR more realistic than the hipfiring-only nonesense found in games like L4D2 or Half-Life 2. Your proposal would not be particularily realistic, as it would imply that the shooter can maintain constant alignment of the sights regardless of movement or circumstance. In reality this just isn't possible, nor prefferable (impractical when scanning for targets in vast majority of situations).

As an aside, shooting with both eyes open would be extremely difficult to simulate in videogame, in my case I find both fields of view overlap (with the visual field of my dominant eye appearing opaque, while the visual field of my other eye appearing transparent).
Well here is the tricky part that I am struggling to explain.

What the screen is TRYING to show is what a character with two eyeballs sees onto a single frame, but can't just superimpose both without a load of blurring. And the character has two eyelids as well but would so quickly open and close either when they need to look around.

You need to get abstract to start representing this. Not "simulate" both eyes open but "represent".


This outlines how you have two eyes open and the illuminated reticule is in the mind superimposed over the target, even over what the left eye sees.

This is starting to look a bit familiar right?

Just consider the sights are always raised and maybe not a cheek weld but the right eye sees through the scope or over the illuminated reticules and when the two eye's images are merged in the brain the bright reticule stands out.

This just establishes the idea that you can have the wide unobstructed field of view AND know where the rifle is pointed because you see where the reticule is.

And I think this is - or could be - being represented when you have that crosshair in game.

Yeah, looking at the rifle held that close on one size you'd get double-vision but the idea is the game character would automatically close one eye or will a shift in occular dominance (I can do this somewhat) to view the left side of the gun without a blurry double vision.

And these games often do have mechanisms for less movement and crouched having better aim but it is continuous, not jarring from "can't hit broad side of barn" when non-ADS (known as "hip" firing) to laser accurate ADS. The

Also food for thought:

 

ElPatron

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Treblaine said:
And I think this is - or could be - being represented when you have that crosshair in game.
But even in the Trijicon video their representation of both eyes open shows the shooter's view trough the optics, which is much more realistic than having a magical bulls-eye painted on the screen while the weapon's sights are an unrealistic foot away from the player's face.

Take a look at Operation Flashpoint: the crosshairs are just ironsights that are not static and have to be lined up, which is definitely more realistic than a normal crosshairs. It also gives you the option of using the iron sights to get more accuracy (which I think would represent "closing one eye" to focus on lining up the sights).

I posted a video about True Combat before - Zoom is minimal, your movement is hardly obstructed and it kinda simulates "both eyes open" as you retain peripheral view (most noticeable on handguns and SMGs).

I think this is one of the best iron sight systems in use.
 

ElPatron

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Abandon4093 said:
I can handled two M99s and land shots with pinpoint accuracy with both even if I'm shooting them in two separate directions.

See, I can shit bulls online too.
>"I can't do that so he must be lying!" EDIT: or you're just taking advantage of crossing eyes

Look, grab any gun with a stock. The difference between shouldering and pushing the cheek against the stock is literally measured in inches. How does placing your face a few inches to the side physically restricts your movement like in videogames?

Also, have you considered that not all military forces teach the same, or that what they teach is sometimes just a quick "patch"? I mean, instead of properly training soldiers how to handle full-automatic fire without spraying, the US introduced a piece of shit 3-round burst that would not reset a incomplete cycle and that forced soldiers to deal with 3 different trigger pulls on semi - which is used more often than full auto or burst.

Or have you considered that the military simply has some equipment that makes it awkward to do what I do?

Or have you considered that perhaps we two have totally different body types? Just because I can do it doesn't mean everyone can.

And like I said, I might be doing something wrong. But I like not having to constantly re-position my cheekweld when I can just walk while aiming.
 

Treblaine

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ElPatron said:
Treblaine said:
And I think this is - or could be - being represented when you have that crosshair in game.
But even in the Trijicon video their representation of both eyes open shows the shooter's view trough the optics, which is much more realistic than having a magical bulls-eye painted on the screen while the weapon's sights are an unrealistic foot away from the player's face.

Take a look at Operation Flashpoint: the crosshairs are just ironsights that are not static and have to be lined up, which is definitely more realistic than a normal crosshairs. It also gives you the option of using the iron sights to get more accuracy (which I think would represent "closing one eye" to focus on lining up the sights).

I posted a video about True Combat before - Zoom is minimal, your movement is hardly obstructed and it kinda simulates "both eyes open" as you retain peripheral view (most noticeable on handguns and SMGs).

I think this is one of the best iron sight systems in use.
Well that video represents it in a way that wouldn't work so well for an unobstructed field of view. The same principal applies with a non-magnifying sight except you just focus on the reticule. It really would be the equivalent of a "magic bullseye on the screen". And plenty of games the sights are closer. Remember, the screen is trying it's best to represent what you'd see with eyes not just locked dead forward but that can move around in their sockets left and right.

What you see in the first-person perspective of video games in not necessarily supposed to be what a webcam mounted on their nose would see.

In 'True Combat' when you go "aim-down-sights" do you suddenly move way slower and as you are going into ADS, can you still shoot? Because that's what really peevs me off with ADS, it just invites campers to take a free shot at your while you are trying to bring your bullets on them.

I am OK with a game that has dilating crosshairs for moving quickly, but not insanely big like assault rifles in COD, that just serves the campers who are already sighted in. I suppose it is compensated by insane rates of fire but then that makes it OP as you have a wide wall of high velocity death that you can't miss with.
 

Russirishican

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Its a harmless game mechanic, whats the big deal? People seem to rag on it because so-called "good" FPS's don't use it and Call of Duty and Battlefield do. Why does it even matter? Does it honestly ruin your gaming experience because you can choose to aim more accurately?
 

ElPatron

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Treblaine said:
In 'True Combat' when you go "aim-down-sights" do you suddenly move way slower
The "fast walk" and "ADS" speeds are in no way comparable.

Since in the game everyone is either sprining or crouching, the fast walk speed is a non-issue. Counter Strike also had a "walk button" if you wanted to be silent and have more accuracy than "fast walking".

In fact, the ADS feature is called "Tactical Mode" in this game because your weapon's accuracy is greater and you walk slower wile making less noise.

Treblaine said:
and as you are going into ADS, can you still shoot? Because that's what really peevs me off with ADS
I don't know, the ADS animation is so fast I never paid attention to it.

Anyway, I just think that aesthetically speaking both True Combat and Operation Flashpoint are better representatives of sighting than a fixed crosshair.

Russirishican said:
Its a harmless game mechanic, whats the big deal? People seem to rag on it because so-called "good" FPS's don't use it and Call of Duty and Battlefield do. Why does it even matter? Does it honestly ruin your gaming experience because you can choose to aim more accurately?
I can rag on modern games all day but I never understood the criticism of "brown games" (it's a matter of perspective, everyone was sick of WWII a few years ago) and iron-sights.

Game developers found that people liked a feature that made gunplay feel closer to real guns? BURN THE HERETICS!
 

Pyro Paul

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Treblaine said:
Pyro Paul said:
Aww, come on. "from the Cheek" and "from the shoulder" are so close.

Still the thing is I can see why you couldn't find ANY game characters shooting from the cheek is how polygon models look crap when you try to get in that tight. The models are stiff and don't deform and bend very realistically. The cheek just clips through the gun model...

[img src="http://media.rockstargames.com/rockstargames/img/global/news/upload/actual_1337292323.jpg" width="620"]
[img src="http://www.ikogamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Ghost-Recon-Future-Soldier-Multiplayer-1.jpg" width="620"]
[img src="http://fullglassemptyclip.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/TFC_Sniper-490x482.png" hight="400"]

usually this is known as 'Marksmen Mode' or 'Scoped In'
the character is focused on shooting and is aiming down the sights of the weapon.

Mostly used for scoped weapons in FPS, but in many TPS (third person shooters) this marksmen mode draws the camera in closer to your sholder and the weapon is drawn up towards the characters cheek as if aiming down the sights. (as seen in Max Payne 3 screen shot)

Marksmen mode, Aim down sight, scoped in... what ever you want to call it does represent a clear choice to players.

Sacrifice field of view, peripheral vision, and situational awareness for better shots.
Which is exactly the pros and Cons of aiming down the sight of any weapon, even in real world conditions.

The problem isn't that aiming down the sight is in games...
the Problem is games like Modern War 2 where you can't shoot the gun with any degree of accuracy UNLESS if you aim down the sights.
[QUOTE=ElPatron]


[QUOTE=Pyro Paul]But the thing is the distance you usually use unsighted shooting in is the distance we see portrayed in video games.[/QUOTE]

However the use of Counter-Strike style crosshairs allow for near pinpoint accuracy at longer ranges. I can't get headshots from 25m away in real life.[/quote]

really?

[img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BPfqxzLWOBE/TbVPceXZdeI/AAAAAAAAJbY/iu4hV7qfkA0/s1600/IDC%2BPrep%2BGili%2BAir%2BApril%2Bpool.JPG" hight="400"]

That is a 25 meter pool.
You're telling me that you couldn't accuratly hit a target on the opposite side of that unsighted?
 

Doopliss64

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Treblaine said:
Doopliss64 said:
Your science is a little flawed but I've been saying the same thing for years. There are many instances of devs going for a superficially "realistic" option instead of an actual representation of human perception. I do have to disagree with your jab at consoles though, the stick is not as precise as a mouse but its perfectly serviceable for the majority of people.
Of course, I quite like playing with a thumbstick, even some FPS games. A gamepad is indispensable for many PC games.

But thumbstick is so DIFFERENT from a mouse that certain gameplay mechanics should be treated differently, like including an ADS mechanic to help with aiming (increaded aim-assist) just causes consternation on PC ports if accuracy is then tied to using ADS.
No question about that. Devs keep thinking they can just straight port things from console to PC and vice versa when that's just not the case. Kind of like how Crysis 2 was built with both console and PC in mind and felt a litte "off" in both cases.
 

ElPatron

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Abandon4093 said:
6 inches on the most part
You really have a long neck. Translated to non-clown measurements, 6 inches is little over 15cm. Which is 68% of the length of my forearm.

Really. Six inches? Do you keep the stock on your shoulder or under your armpit?

Abandon4093 said:
Because it fucking works.
And where did I say that it was the wrong style of shooting? I never said my way was the only way that worked.

Abandon4093 said:
Or have you considered that the military simply has some equipment that makes it awkward to do what I do?
Like a spine?
You're right, it was a stupid question. Any equipment that would prevent me from shooting like I do would also prevent any human being with a normal neck from aiming down the sights.



Abandon4093 said:
And like I said, I might be doing something wrong. But I like not having to constantly re-position my cheekweld when I can just walk while aiming.
Then you are certainly doing something wrong.
Explain what I am doing wrong, then?

I can relocate my shoulder and face without leaving my shooting stance and without compromising my recoil absorption, which gives me a good arc of movement before I have to rotate my upper body.

Again, I don't understand how walking with the sights superimposed on my view could ever restrict my movement more than just shouldering the weapon.

Pyro Paul said:
You're telling me that you couldn't accuratly hit a target on the opposite side of that unsighted?
If the target is a 22" diameter circle I can *probably* hit it 1/3 of the time with a rifle.

If the target is a human head I simply can't imagine a CS-style bulls-eye telling me exactly where my bullet is going. Yes, I will not be able to hit it.

The only things I can "point-shoot" are handguns, shotguns and Nerf. And obviously that at 25 meters I wouldn't miss with a 12ga.

This argument is pointless because the crosshairs in CS do not depend on distance. The shots you can take at 25m are possible at 40-50m (possible the longest distance I ever got a HS on a Counter Strike map).
 

The White Hunter

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Zhukov said:
Actually, no, your left eye would not be seeing anything like that.

Your eyes aren't far enough apart for that.

There is nothing remotely realistic about accurate fire from the hip. In the real world, if you want to hit a target at anything beyond point blank range you raise your weapon to your shoulder and aim down the bloody sights. That's what they're there for.
This.

Unless it's a shotgun, but even then you should really consider stocking the thing in order to avoid sudden and violent dislocation of the shoulder.