Alan Moore on Superhero comics
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I counter that with "adult" entertainment is centered around cheating, murder, lying, drugs, tearing each other down, and general horrible stuff like that. How many crime solving shows are out there now that are always about someone getting murdered? Breaking Bad is about a man slowly losing his humanity as he becomes a ruthless killer. I remember watching the intro to a crime show where a man broke into a dorm house, tied up the four cheerleaders, sexually assaulted each one, then slit their throats one by one. One of them managed to survive, and that was the mystery of the episode.
So I'm sorry, but I'll take "Kid" entertainment like The Avengers that leaves me with a smile on my face over "adult" entertainment that makes me sick to my stomach.
So I'm sorry, but I'll take "Kid" entertainment like The Avengers that leaves me with a smile on my face over "adult" entertainment that makes me sick to my stomach.
The dark age was unintentional on his part, though maybe not Frank Miller's, and he looks back on it with shame. Watchmen was never intended to be the pinnacle that all comics drew inspiration from, it was meant to be a one off deconstruction, a little "What if" scenario. He's written plenty of superhero comics that aren't dark deconstructions, but he's apparently become bitter over everyone copying his work and making the dark age, to the point that he now refuses to go near superheroes.GrinningCat said:
Regarding The killing Joke, it was also meant to be a one-shot, completely non-canon from the ordinary Batman books, which should be obvious considering it was intended to end with Batman strangling the Joker. Plus, Batman is a bit different from other superheroes in that he started out gritty and adult, killing criminals with a gun, but became more lighthearted with time until The Dark Knight Returns.
This is coming from a guy who WRITES this stuff?
I mean Moore is a fantastic writer, but aside from the level of sex and outright violence against people, what exactly made Watchmen for adults and other superhero comics for kids? Heck, you can't even say that about comics any more since a lot of them have acts that would make Watchmen seem tame.
I mean Moore is a fantastic writer, but aside from the level of sex and outright violence against people, what exactly made Watchmen for adults and other superhero comics for kids? Heck, you can't even say that about comics any more since a lot of them have acts that would make Watchmen seem tame.
All those who find it hard to imagine Alan "Watchmen" Moore holding a view like this, go and read Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whatever_Happened_to_the_Man_of_Tomorrow%3F]or Supreme [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_%28comics%29]. Both are tributes to the silver age of comic books that he accidentally helped to destroy.
I can see what he means, but then I've always considered comics in the same light since I was a kid.
With that said, I look on his work in the same light. What he's famous for is good for teens, but for anyone older it's rather simple (Watchmen boiling down to a simple expression of wish fulfillment from a Baby Boomer).
With that said, I look on his work in the same light. What he's famous for is good for teens, but for anyone older it's rather simple (Watchmen boiling down to a simple expression of wish fulfillment from a Baby Boomer).
You just answered your own question there. The sex and violence was part of setting the serious tone and admittedly it did help its case for being for adults, there is a grain of truth to it even if it's not ideal, but ultimately it is the story he told with the characters he developed that made Watchmen the success it was among other things. You need only to google Watchmen analysis to read into what made Watchmen so great for its time.Vausch said:
While I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Moore and his work, he completely undercuts his own point when he says that he hasn't read superhero comics since he finished Watchmen. If he hasn't *read* them he doesn't *know* how good or bad, deep or shallow they are. There has been some amazing work done in the genre post-Watchmen. In particular I'd point to Chris Claremont's mind-blowing feat of turning X-Men in to a comic much more about ideas and ideologies than physical battles.
I also think that it should be pointed out that many of these properties, whether they are theoretically aimed at children or adults can be much deeper than a cursory glance would indicate. My favorite example of this is the third Pokemon movie. Yup, a *Pokemon* movie. Sure it has little monsters popping out of balls and breathing fire or shooting lightning, but what it's really *about* is a little girl trying to cope with the loss of her parents. On the flip side, the story about an exiled ruler who gets magical powers and a magical servant and uses the magic to regain his land and make a happy ending for everyone...that's a Shakespeare play.
I also think that it should be pointed out that many of these properties, whether they are theoretically aimed at children or adults can be much deeper than a cursory glance would indicate. My favorite example of this is the third Pokemon movie. Yup, a *Pokemon* movie. Sure it has little monsters popping out of balls and breathing fire or shooting lightning, but what it's really *about* is a little girl trying to cope with the loss of her parents. On the flip side, the story about an exiled ruler who gets magical powers and a magical servant and uses the magic to regain his land and make a happy ending for everyone...that's a Shakespeare play.
Watchmen isn't great for its time, it's just great in general. That said, when you compare the level of sex and violence in it to a lot of comics today there's not too much difference aside from them being so willing to show someone being torn into pieces or tortured yet they won't say certain curse words.Nouw said:
The only problem I have with that is he treats it like they'r still pulling plot from the 50s comics and like none of the characters ever advanced. I can see his point, I just dont agree.
Alan Moore being grumpy? Alright people, move along, nothing to see here.
As for his "hate" of superheroes: well we can't expect a man to hold the exact same opinions he held in 1985, can we? And who knew, people want to see stuff they loved in their childhood up on the big screen as a major blockbuster? SHOCKER!
He's grumpy about adults going to see The Avengers (which I'm sure he hasn't even seen himself)? Did he miss every Michael Bay movie ever made and the fact that adults flocked to see those films and made tons of money, despite being exactly the kind of thing he described The Avengers to be? Well maybe not Pearl Harbor, but it was certainly intellectually on the level of a 13-year old.
As for his "hate" of superheroes: well we can't expect a man to hold the exact same opinions he held in 1985, can we? And who knew, people want to see stuff they loved in their childhood up on the big screen as a major blockbuster? SHOCKER!
He's grumpy about adults going to see The Avengers (which I'm sure he hasn't even seen himself)? Did he miss every Michael Bay movie ever made and the fact that adults flocked to see those films and made tons of money, despite being exactly the kind of thing he described The Avengers to be? Well maybe not Pearl Harbor, but it was certainly intellectually on the level of a 13-year old.
I'mma say that's half true. Robocop is still among the bloodiest movies I've seen and Braindead (Dead-Alive) still holds the world record for most gore used in a single movie. And it deserves that record. Granted we've certainly become more liberal in terms of what we'll allow on screen and a lot of movie makers assume blood and gore makes up for actually sympathetic characters and a decent plot, but I'd say some old movies still hold their titles well.Nouw said:
Qell, Watchmen had a lot of toher things that make it adult.Vausch said:
The non-linear Dr. Manhattan chapters would be hard for a child to follow. But that is just scratching the surface. Better leave the rest in spoiler, as it will discuss the ending amongst other things.
The grey morality of the whole world is also very unlike standard superheor and not usually seen in the black and white morality that most superheroes have. In most other works, specially in the MCU, there is little question about the morality of the good guys being good. That is not true in Watchmen. All the heroes are very disfunctional people that probably went into what they do for all the wrong reasons. Justice, helping other, all that is almost secondary (you could argue) to other motivations. After all, most of them end up agreeing with Ozymandias that one the deal is done it is best to keep it secret. And that plan was one that horrified an archnemesis of the Comedian, reputably a bad guy. The plan is so horrific that a sociopath as the Comedian was also terrified. But if it works, most of the good guys are fine with it. SO, are they really good? Well, there is no answer.
Also, the ending is very ambiguos, more than most children stories. The bad guy isn't defeated, he is just left with his doubts and regrets. And even after sacrificing his humanity, it still might get out and caused all those deaths for nothing. This whole endevour may be futile thanks to Rorscharch's journal. That ending is not a sequel hook, but just another poigniant about the futility of superheores.
Because they are pointless. Their actions do not matter. The crime fighting is in such a small scale that it is uneffective. The criminals they chased went just to other types of crimes, emaning they did little good overall. They are only people dressed up in Holloween costumes fighting other guys as that amount to little more than stopping a few muggings and fighting some gangs. The only real powerful one of them is just as helpless, from his point of view, as he is tied to what will happen (has already happened and is happening form his point of view) and will not and can not do any real good. That isn't the message most kids entretainment will have.
And talking about Dr. Manhattan, there is the philosophical debate that arises form him, the exitance of free will. He is in denial of free will, as he experiences all time in the same moment, but then again is proven to be mistaken about not helping the Silk Spectre. But there is a fine line at that point. Ozymandias experiment is interfering with Dr. Manhattan's vision and his predictions are accurate until a certain point, Laurie runs off crying after talking to him. Is that point before or after what he could see? Is there free will or not? THat is left for the reader to decide, and most children will not be discussing those ramifications (and the moral implicaitons that they have through out the story).
There are also strong political themes. The Government sponsors only two heroes, one that is a eapon in the Cold War and another that is a compelte sociopath. Watergate was probably silenced. The ramifications of winning the Vietnam War. The only man in favour of talking about what happened at the end is a near fascist nutjob. A lot of that will fly over the head of any child trying to read the comic. The discrimination suffered by minorities, that ends in a brutal murder.
And then there are the characters. Unlike most superheroes they are deepley flawed. Irredemiable even. Being all powerful doesn't make you a superhuman, it strips you form your humanity, making you something else. Facing brutality just makes you more and more brutal yourself. Heroes do terrible stuff that is forgiven for their status as heroes. THe complex relation between a would-be-rapist and her would-be-victim. These aren't figures to grow looking up to, they are just really messed up people, completely the opposite to normal superheroes (even batman, with his "dark side" is to be looked up to by his cleverness, resourcefulness and strong morality).
Then one coudl talk about the references and suplemental material, which is dense and very disturbing.
Also, the ending is very ambiguos, more than most children stories. The bad guy isn't defeated, he is just left with his doubts and regrets. And even after sacrificing his humanity, it still might get out and caused all those deaths for nothing. This whole endevour may be futile thanks to Rorscharch's journal. That ending is not a sequel hook, but just another poigniant about the futility of superheores.
Because they are pointless. Their actions do not matter. The crime fighting is in such a small scale that it is uneffective. The criminals they chased went just to other types of crimes, emaning they did little good overall. They are only people dressed up in Holloween costumes fighting other guys as that amount to little more than stopping a few muggings and fighting some gangs. The only real powerful one of them is just as helpless, from his point of view, as he is tied to what will happen (has already happened and is happening form his point of view) and will not and can not do any real good. That isn't the message most kids entretainment will have.
And talking about Dr. Manhattan, there is the philosophical debate that arises form him, the exitance of free will. He is in denial of free will, as he experiences all time in the same moment, but then again is proven to be mistaken about not helping the Silk Spectre. But there is a fine line at that point. Ozymandias experiment is interfering with Dr. Manhattan's vision and his predictions are accurate until a certain point, Laurie runs off crying after talking to him. Is that point before or after what he could see? Is there free will or not? THat is left for the reader to decide, and most children will not be discussing those ramifications (and the moral implicaitons that they have through out the story).
There are also strong political themes. The Government sponsors only two heroes, one that is a eapon in the Cold War and another that is a compelte sociopath. Watergate was probably silenced. The ramifications of winning the Vietnam War. The only man in favour of talking about what happened at the end is a near fascist nutjob. A lot of that will fly over the head of any child trying to read the comic. The discrimination suffered by minorities, that ends in a brutal murder.
And then there are the characters. Unlike most superheroes they are deepley flawed. Irredemiable even. Being all powerful doesn't make you a superhuman, it strips you form your humanity, making you something else. Facing brutality just makes you more and more brutal yourself. Heroes do terrible stuff that is forgiven for their status as heroes. THe complex relation between a would-be-rapist and her would-be-victim. These aren't figures to grow looking up to, they are just really messed up people, completely the opposite to normal superheroes (even batman, with his "dark side" is to be looked up to by his cleverness, resourcefulness and strong morality).
Then one coudl talk about the references and suplemental material, which is dense and very disturbing.
For those and more reasons the Watchmen aren't kid friendly superheroes. They are made to deconstruct and see them differently. Watchmen is directed to a different audience, even without the physical violence and sex. It is made with adults in mind.
And I would say that Mr. Moore may have a poitn. I love Watchmen but it not all comics should be like it. Some comics shouldn't concern themeselves about continuity and personal flaws, some jsut should be about great aventures, that excite imagination in children. And this may be extended to saying that modern comic books aren't attracting new readers. The people that are going to THe Avenger are the people that grew with them, not the kids. COmics are losing that focus, and that may be a bad thing. Hmm, I think I would like to thing more about that.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying superhero-comics or movies, but they can be made well or badly.
I like certain silliness from time to time, but just because your main character can fly and talk to squirrels doesn't mean they can't have depth and be interesting, and about something.
Also, I respect Moore's work, but why should we care about an opinion of someone who doesn't have good grasp on what the medium is like these days? He says himself that he hasn't read any comics since Watchmen, so what does he know?
I like certain silliness from time to time, but just because your main character can fly and talk to squirrels doesn't mean they can't have depth and be interesting, and about something.
Also, I respect Moore's work, but why should we care about an opinion of someone who doesn't have good grasp on what the medium is like these days? He says himself that he hasn't read any comics since Watchmen, so what does he know?
Alan Moore is a talentless, grumpy prick... In my opinion, of course. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate things he's done for the comic book industry but he's hardly the only one involved in it. Or even the best (but that's opinion, again). He says a lot of things like this and it seems that, sometimes, he'd rather say these things than do anything about it.
It's not that he's entirely wrong, of course; it is weird how stuff aimed at 12 year olds has more tits and blood than movies aimed at adults. But, in my opinion, The Avengers was so successful because it didn't go down that road too much. It was exactly the kind of dumb action adventure movie I grew up watching (Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, etc). But that's the movies. Comics are all kinds of fucked up, now.
As much as I enjoy Snyder's run on Batman and as much as I liked the face thing with The Joker and that whole big event, it was a bit much for an all ages book. Batman has always been dark, sure, but it shouldn't really be THAT dark unless it's an Elseworlds book or something. Or even a Vertigo alternative, similar to Marvel's MAX line. There's no need to stop making these comics so "adult," there's a time and a place for everything. These things can be seperate. Look at how well The Punisher did. Look at Wolverine MAX!
Comics like Superman, Green Lantern, Wolverine, X-Men, etc shouldn't have the levels of "adult" material they currently have. Wolverine shouldn't scream "STOP RAPING ME" in any comic (for those of you who don't know: Yes, that actually happened. It was indeed a thing). I put adult in quotation marks because, obviously, a lot of it isn't adult it's just stupid.
There's plenty of room in these comics to explore more mature themes, of course. The best of these comics became so successful BECAUSE they did that. But they did so without taking the piss. No faces were cut off and nailed to walls, nobody was caught in a bear trap and slowly mutilated, etc. You had Harry Osborne as a junkie, Gwen Stacy thrown off a bridge, Robin beaten with a crowbar and so on were shocking and effective. Now we don't even think about it when something like that happens. If anything, people ***** about it and say there wasn't enough impact (meaning gore, a lot of the time...).
So, as much as I think Alan Moore is an ass who can't write for shit, he's not exactly wrong here. But people can enjoy what they want, as long as they do so in healthy doses
It's not that he's entirely wrong, of course; it is weird how stuff aimed at 12 year olds has more tits and blood than movies aimed at adults. But, in my opinion, The Avengers was so successful because it didn't go down that road too much. It was exactly the kind of dumb action adventure movie I grew up watching (Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, etc). But that's the movies. Comics are all kinds of fucked up, now.
As much as I enjoy Snyder's run on Batman and as much as I liked the face thing with The Joker and that whole big event, it was a bit much for an all ages book. Batman has always been dark, sure, but it shouldn't really be THAT dark unless it's an Elseworlds book or something. Or even a Vertigo alternative, similar to Marvel's MAX line. There's no need to stop making these comics so "adult," there's a time and a place for everything. These things can be seperate. Look at how well The Punisher did. Look at Wolverine MAX!
Comics like Superman, Green Lantern, Wolverine, X-Men, etc shouldn't have the levels of "adult" material they currently have. Wolverine shouldn't scream "STOP RAPING ME" in any comic (for those of you who don't know: Yes, that actually happened. It was indeed a thing). I put adult in quotation marks because, obviously, a lot of it isn't adult it's just stupid.
There's plenty of room in these comics to explore more mature themes, of course. The best of these comics became so successful BECAUSE they did that. But they did so without taking the piss. No faces were cut off and nailed to walls, nobody was caught in a bear trap and slowly mutilated, etc. You had Harry Osborne as a junkie, Gwen Stacy thrown off a bridge, Robin beaten with a crowbar and so on were shocking and effective. Now we don't even think about it when something like that happens. If anything, people ***** about it and say there wasn't enough impact (meaning gore, a lot of the time...).
So, as much as I think Alan Moore is an ass who can't write for shit, he's not exactly wrong here. But people can enjoy what they want, as long as they do so in healthy doses
