Am I A Terrible Person For Not Caring?

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Here's the one thing I can say.

Mass Effect, Fallout NV, Dragon's Age, The Elder Scrolls, Saint's Row, Jade Empire, The Secret World... so much the Secret World... all of these top series (to me) told great stories and some even had fun replayable bonuses for playing as another gender, even another sexuality. Developers proven that you can make great stories that the player can make his or her own by answering how they'd really want and being close to what they look or feel like.

To make another white guy and say 'He's a character that all gamers can relate to' is just lazy, or not seeing past your outdated ideas that all gamers happen to look like 70% of your development studio.

Just make customizable characters. And for the love of All, stop the bullshit that in a fantasy world that has Orcs and Dwarfs... there's only one skin hue. That, I'm tired of.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

Why should women apply for jobs in the industry? If a woman is already college aged or over she probably already has her career path set. Why should she change that? You don't have to switch your day job to get the games you want. So why should she?

If people want to see more women developing games then it's a requirement that women study related subjects and apply for jobs in the industry. It is farcical to blame "the industry" for not having enough women developing games when there are so comparatively few to hire. Every single woman who does not opt to study and apply for a job in the industry is to blame for there not being enough women in the industry. The only people holding women back are themselves. If people wish to see more women in video games, science or engineering, perhaps women should start studying those subjects; sadly female game developers don't grow on trees, get delivered by storks or appear out of thin air.

 

[Erttheking]

If you're apathetic to the situation, please don't talk smack about the people that are not, that's all I ask for. Because if you do, then you're clearly not apathetic.

 

[Ten Foot Bunny]

If people want to see more women developing games then it's a requirement that women study related subjects and apply for jobs in the industry. It is farcical to blame "the industry" for not having enough women developing games when there are so comparatively few to hire. Every single woman who does not opt to study and apply for a job in the industry is to blame for there not being enough women in the industry. The only people holding women back are themselves. If people wish to see more women in video games, science or engineering, perhaps women should start studying those subjects; sadly female game developers don't grow on trees, get delivered by storks or appear out of thin air.

If that's not the epitome of white male privilege in the video game industry, then I don't know what is. Men can enjoy their hobby as the dominant and catered-to sex, AND they get to do whatever they want in their professional lives, whereas we women need to alter our entire lives in order to get what we want because the men in charge won't listen to us?

Forgive me for having an opinion while not being part of your "solution." I'm in my mid-30s and have already uprooted my entire career once. I have two bachelor's degrees and the student loan debt that accompanies that. Neither of them are in mathematics, engineering, CIS, or video game production (though I did take plenty of classes in 3D modeling during my first degree and even tutored statistics, brain anatomy, and neurology during my second). I'm not going back to school again simply for the chance to play some games that actually reflect my real-life experience as a woman.

This is just as bad as the people who say that we need to shut up about women's non-representation in gaming, and that we should go to war zones and politically volatile and disease-ridden parts of the world if we care about women's rights. If that's the case, then why doesn't every single male join the military to fight for the rights of everyone? Or do guys not care enough about global issues to play an active part in solving them? If you do, then please gather up all the money you can, travel to the problem area, and become a catalyst for change. Please stop giving a shit about first-world problems as long as anyone on this planet is starving, living in irradiated areas, beaten down by violently oppressive regimes, or whatever cause motivates you. After all, that's what you're telling us women to do.

(And please don't take that last paragraph as a rant against military veterans because, though I'm an idealist who wishes that war didn't exist, I have utmost respect for people who DO put their lives on the line and fight for those who can't. In my last job, vet preference was a mandated part of our program, but I never once followed that rule simply out of obligation - I sincerely believed in providing that extra level of service.)

And yes, not having to worry about my imminent slaughter because I don't have a penis is a privilege of living in a first-world country, as much so as the male privilege I described above. Call me a coward for not putting my life in danger if that makes you (the collective "you," not you in particular) feel better. But I'm not going to stop doing my part to press the issue of women in gaming just because it's inconvenient to certain types of guys.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I have to call foul on this one. Where was the backlash against Lilith and Gaige in Borderlands 2? The two new women in the Pre-sequel? I've seen people who are practically salivating to play as the one with the sword and the shield. Clementine in the walking dead season 2. The main character of Remember Me? All of the female characters in Fire Emblem Awakening? Faith from Mirror's Edge? Chell from Portal? The metric tons of female characters from Fallout New Vegas, which included two confirmed lesbians, one of which going so far as to be a fan favorite. People can put female characters in and not have a massive backlash against them easily, this whole "everyone who makes a female character is doomed" thing feels like an overreaction. The thing is, they have to put in the effort and not fall into constant stupid pitfalls. You may disagree with me, but when people complain about female characters in gaming, they're not exactly all hot air. There are a lot of problems with women in gaming, with developers struggling to avoid constant stupid cliches. The above characters didn't get a backlash because they avoided the constant stupid cliches, but I guess the problem is that video game writing is just kind of shit still. The problem is that, coupled with the "boys only" mindset that a lot of publishers live by, a lot of causal sexism works its way into the female characters they're half assing.

Bottom line, if a female character is found sexist, it's either like the Last of Us where it's just a couple of nut balls that even hardcore feminists say are talking out of their rears, or the character was probably half assed and lazy cliches found their way it. That or the dev was actually sexist, but that's a topic for another day.

 

[Depulcator]

I care more about the quality/ personal enjoyment of a game. I'm too busy having fun to debate something so petty.

 

[mecegirl]

Why should women apply for jobs in the industry? If a woman is already college aged or over she probably already has her career path set. Why should she change that? You don't have to switch your day job to get the games you want. So why should she?

If people want to see more women developing games then it's a requirement that women study related subjects and apply for jobs in the industry. It is farcical to blame "the industry" for not having enough women developing games when there are so comparatively few to hire. Every single woman who does not opt to study and apply for a job in the industry is to blame for there not being enough women in the industry. The only people holding women back are themselves. If people wish to see more women in video games, science or engineering, perhaps women should start studying those subjects; sadly female game developers don't grow on trees, get delivered by storks or appear out of thin air.

Who said shit about them appearing out of thin air? No one is gonna want to make games if the games they grew up with didn't include them. Right now any woman around our age who is a creative type is more likely to be active in other creative fields because those fields stirred their imaginations as children. That's why there are so few female game developers. And it is the industries fault for ignoring other demographics. That cycle will continue and more and more women will make movies, tv shows, even comic books before they bother with an exclusionary industry like AAA video games.

 

[Vault101]

please don't be about that...please don't be about that please don't be about that

ak93]It seems that everyday people make a big deal out of gender equality in games.

GGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sub/]wooooo[/sub]

[quote/]Is it bad that I don't really care?[/quote]
no..its not bad, your not a bad person

[quote/]I didn't finish Mass Effect and think "Man, that game would have been better had there been more females".

Or play a chapter of The Walking Dead thinking "This would be better if Lee was Lea."

My point being, do people actually find a lack of female characters (playable and non) in games off putting?

Should I?

]I'm not a girl, maybe that's part of the problem. Perhaps I would notice it more if I was
[/quote]

its when you say shit like this that you are part of the problem...not a bad person, but part of the problem

as in clueless as to why people different to you have issues

[quote/]I play a game for the game. The characters that come up in the game are part of that experience. Male and female. Do we really need a quota for either?[/[/quote]

see do you have a point here? is this your point? because you can frame this as inocently as you want but this strikes me as disengenous, if you genuinly didn't care then you wouldn't post or make a thread about any of this

in other words if you have a point to make then make it...don't wrap it up in pseudo wishy washy "I'm all for equality

I don't particularly care either. It's a non-issue for me. I play plenty of games as either gender and am frankly tired of being accused of sexism by people for enjoying games. I also won't apologise for being a man who loves women. I wish the complainers would find something new to moan about already. If they really cared about "equality for women" why aren't they doing something actually worthwhile like campaigning for change in Africa or the middle east?
.

but you do care...you framed that in a certain way as to trivialise issues people have with female representations, therefore I'm assuming you don't think any of it is a big deal...that we'r all being silly

I care more about the quality/ personal enjoyment of a game. I'm too busy having fun to debate something so petty.

of coarse only the wimmins are petty

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Either we both are or you aren't.

I enjoy a good female character. I don't mind if they're the protagonist. Bayonetta was really good. But anything less than a really good character gets immediately called out as tokenism or pandering to male audiences or objectification while similarly shitty male characters are basically the staple of games.

 

[Vault101]

Who said shit about them appearing out of thin air? No one is gonna want to make games if the games they grew up with didn't include them. Right now any woman around our age who is a creative type is more likely to be active in other creative fields because those fields stirred their imaginations as children. That's why there are so few female game developers. And it is the industries fault for ignoring other demographics. That cycle will continue and more and more women will make movies, tv shows, even comic books before they bother with an exclusionary industry like AAA video games.

That's not even getting into the boys club mentality...like I'm so glad the solutions ate so obvious

While were on a gender debate why don't we play bingo!?

[spoiler/][img/]http://ramiismail.com/misc/bingo/[/img][/spoiler]

 

[Bakuryukun]

It doesn't make you an outright terrible person, but it doesn't do your character any favors either. It makes you lazy, weak or apathetic to the plights of others and those aren't positive qualities to have. It makes you a worse person than you could be, but not instantly terrible.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

You're welcome to not care, and not be a bad person, but it's how you express that you don't care that can change that, IMO.

You don't have to find the lack of female playable characters off-putting. I wouldn't begrudge you if you didn't.

I certainly do find it off-putting, though. Unless a game is a spectacular one, I won't give it the time of day if it only has male leads. Simple as that. I gotta save that money for supporting games that include my gender, ya know. It may not make a dang in the "vote with your wallet" arena, but I'll feel better not having to play a "meh" game as a protagonist I'll probably dislike.
The reasons for women being cut help make it off-putting, too. Some of the defenders of the status-quo aren't exactly helping, either.

No, we don't need a quota for anything in games, IMO. What we do need, however, is developers to have freedom. The latest controversies were over women being cut from 2 Ubisoft games because of budget concerns, and what not. Gee, I wonder who made those budget decisions? Those people are denying developers freedom, and now we've got this ugly situation.

I used to play just to play, and didn't care, but I've found playing as my own gender pretty nice, and pretty rare. For a while it didn't bother me that it was rare, but ultimately, I'm tired of being denied, tired of the bullshit excuses, and basically everything that gets in the way of it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

We're not talking about what could've happened here, we're talking about what DID happen. These games were not called sexist. It doesn't matter that could have been, what matters is what did happen. And if you're going to live in constant fear of what could have happened, then what's the point? None of these people were called sexist, Clementine was flat out praised for her realistic and likable depiction of a small girl in a zombie apocalypse. We're here to talk about what did happen, not what might happen or what could've happened, what DID happen. People COULD have a field day with them. They don't. Because they like them. People like to hate popular games, popular games get criticized all the time, yet games like Fallout New Vegas manage to be popular and well liked.

Also, lack of depth in female NPCs? I'm gonna need a link for that one. Also I'm pretty sure said guy never played Veronica's story arc. Or the Dead Money DLC.

 

[Vault101]

I used to play just to play, and didn't care, but I've found playing as my own gender pretty nice, and pretty rare. For a while it didn't bother me that it was rare, but ultimately, I'm tired of being denied, tired of the bullshit excuses, and basically everything that gets in the way of it.

pretty much

its almost sad really that I can't be as clueless as I was and able to enjoy any half decent schlock like in highschool nad my childhood, but I've seen it...connected the dots in my own life and now I'm aware...painfully aware of all the bullshit that my favorite things have been steeped in...hell mabye this is the reason I'm not as big on games as I was 5 years ago...I'm just sick of it...and sick of being told it doesn't matter or that its our responsibilty to all get into the gaming industry and sick of being labelled a SJW or a femenazi or anything because god forbid I have an opinion on something that isn't related to Framrates or complexity of the game

but ultimatly I'm better for it

 

[00slash00]

Well as someone who identifies as female, it is a little disappointing to play a game and not get to play as a female character. But gender equality in games isn't really about being able to play as a female character in every game, its about how female characters are represented or portrayed

 

[Fox12]

I don't really care if there are more or less female characters. I only get up in arms when women, or any group, are badly portrayed. Do I care about the Assassins Creed debate? No, it wasn't really offensive. Do I care when women are brought out in chain mail bikinis and used as fetish fuel? Yes, that's when I tend to bring out the torch and pitchfork. Basically, just treat people with respect.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Most certainly not. Games are a luxury hobby, so it's perfectly understandable that a lot of people don't wish to drag social issues into it. I understand why the issues get raised, but I don't think everyone should be expected to take part in it and fight for it.

Hell, I'm not really all that into it myself. All I want is interesting characters in general. I don't really care what sex and ethnicity they are, so long as they're well written.

yupp, and considering how often the sexist/racist/etc... card gets pulled into something, it makes it hard to take issues seriously when it seems like every other game that gets released ends up getting slammed by the femihammer for one reason or another. I could play a game just fine with next to (or all) females and have a blast, given it was a good game and/or interesting characters.


OT: Sorry OP, you're clearly a misogynist for not hating any game that doesn't pass the bechdel test. 0/10, would not bang. ever.

 

[Blow_Pop]

What, for being apathetic over the choices of an entertainment industry? Hardly.

Personally, I care primarily because I'd just like to see some more variety.

Variety is interesting. Homogeny is not. Characters of numerous different colours and creeds are interesting. The parade of thirty-something, brown haired white tough guys is not.

No, I would say terrible, you're just ignorant (the "it doesn't affect you" way, not the rude way) of it, which is understandable.

The main reasons I care is because I want some variety, I'm just sick of playing as brown haired, 20-40 year old white guys. And I am a 20-something brown-haired white guy!

The people I don't understand though are those that are dead set against it. Variety is the spice of life and all that.

These two have summed up perfectly what I was going to say (except I'm not a 20-40 year old white guy with brown hair).

I want more variety in my games. I want non binary people. I want people of different religions, races, and sexualities.

Being indifferent because it doesn't really affect you (which is probably more what it is for you, OP instead of lack of caring) just means you're indifferent (if it actually is the case of not caring then it simply means that you like the lack of variety different strokes and all). Now, if you had said that you didn't care because females are boring and can never be interesting then you might be walking that fine line between being a decent person and a bad person (depending of course HOW you said it and if you were specifically saying it to someone). For a company (particularly one like Ubi who has had a VERY successful game with a woman of colour as the main character) to have anyone there say that women are hard to animate, they're kind of talking out of their ass (from what I've gathered from my developer friends unless you're adding jiggly boob physics then it can get tricky but your average female......yeah females walk just like males do unless you put them in heels then their hips roll more and that is the major difference with the animations) but that is a conversation I have had way too many times this past week and really don't care to get into anymore.

As Andy said: Variety is the spice of life.
Though I prefer it more as diversity is the spice of life but toe-mae-toe ta-mah-toe (fun with phonetics?)

Further, if women want to see more women in the games industry then they should apply for jobs within it. Every single woman who studied literature, journalism, psychology, sociology, or another of the Humanities is the problem, not the men who did study science, engineering, maths and computer science. There's nothing to stop any woman achieving academic success in a computer science, game design, programming or 3D modelling subject.

It's not that simple. Like any male dominated field, it's hard for a woman to get into and be successful into it. I've worked in many non male dominated fields at jobs that were male dominated and have been told legitimate complaints and concerns were me overreacting because I'm perceived as female. Yet when a guy brought up the same concern it was immediately looked into. Not to mention, women are ACTIVELY discouraged in schools to not study science/engineering/maths/computer science. So a lot of the problem still revolves in people (mostly men though some women don't do anything to help this and do the same thing) still acting like these things are "boys clubs" where if you're not "one of the boys"(regardless of gender) then you'll be ridiculed and tried to force out of the class/job.