Am I growing soft or are RPG's using more bs tactics?

[tippy2k2]

I swear to God I am about to throw this God damn game in the trash. This is the second RPG in a row that got HUGE critical acclaim and I feel like it's just garbage and here's why:

Bu-Bu-Bu-Bullshit Tactics

Spoiler: SMT: Devil Survivor Overclocked: My problems with the game

Now I had a previous issue with this game that grinding took care of but now I'm just so sick of this game that I'm ready to smash it with a hammer. I'm at the point where even the Hard Free Battles I can sleep walk through (so I can't grind because it does dick for me) but I'm stuck on this bullshit of a mission. A number of enemies are running away from me and you have to kill them before they escape (never mind that I already fought these fucks and I had to stop them from escaping so that they wouldn't come back...I guess the game forgot that part).

So you have these four guys you're fighting. They have nothing but tanks on their team so killing them takes forever. Meanwhile, all they're doing is running away. I finally had the mission beat when the game decided it didn't say "Fuck You!" enough and had the guy move twice. Seriously...what the fuck do you want game? They get to move multiple times between my turn with these fucking tanks of an enemy and I can't get any higher level than I already am.

Spoiler: Fire Emblem; Awakening: My problems with the game

Fuck ambushes. Seriously. With a rusty spoon. The game had piss-poor AI that threw itself on your spear and the only things that were an actual threat were those stupid ambushes since you can't prepare for them at all. I finally just gave up on "Fair sport" and just paired all the shitty characters with the big boys so that the ambushes couldn't pick off my weak characters as they appeared out of nowhere in my ass.

So with my *****-fest out of the way, am I growing too intolerant to bullshit or am I growing soft (or maybe it's always been this way but child-Tippy2k2 didn't care)? I used to adore this genre but it seems like most games now are substituting balance and excellent AI (when these games used to actually outsmart me) and instead just stack the deck against you to beat you. If this is the cream of the crop, I'd hate to see what the crappy versions of these games are...

Both these games are hailed as the best that you can get out of the modern Tactical RPG and both games I find are not smart or difficult; they're bullshit.

EDIT: A lot of people seem to think I hate RNG's. I don't. I'm not sure why people are getting that from my post (though I do talk about it later with XCOM so maybe that's it...)

I'm hating on the games just stacking the deck against you to beat you rather than outsmarting or outplaying you.

EDIT the second: If anyone is wondering (because I'm sure everyone here is on the edge of their seat), I have finally just punched my way through that part. Basically I just kept doing it over and over and over and over again until I accidentally won.

 

[shrekfan246]

I don't think it's really new, especially in JRPGs. They've been stacking the deck against the player for a long time, and Fire Emblem and Shin Megami Tensei in particular are mostly known for stacking the deck in the first place.

That said, BS RNG is one of the quickest things that puts me off of an RPG, if I'm honest. It's why I just can't get into the Infinity Engine D&D games, it's why I have no interest in playing Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne for myself, it's why I never use axes in RPGs where they have the highest potential damage output but it's at the expense of a massive range that also includes the lowest potential damage output -- Put simply, I don't like relying on the AI or randomized scripts when I can help it, because I know they're stacked against me.

 

[Barbas]

Spoiler: Shitting 'ell!

Sweet Sally Anne, I don't think I've ever seen you this annoyed before. Stiff upper lip, old boy!

I find a lot of games based on maximizing percentages in your favour - XCOM: Enemy Unknown being a pretty good example - can seem like a whole lot of BS fairly regularly (although most cases I've come across in that game were due to glitches, like aliens firing through walls from outside their normal range to score critical hits and force a reload). At least they're not as bad as the completely random ones like FTL - I never got the appeal of games that were so unpredictable in terms of their difficulty. I'd rather see some seriously hard work and dedication put into challenging combat AI than have the developers simply resort to random number generators, which aren't entertaining, just unfair. It gets my dander up.

I'd say it's more the way they designed the games, which is a shame. I don't like being unfairly punished...

[small][sub][sub]...at least not most of the time...[/sub][/sub][/small]

 

[tippy2k2]

Sweet Sally Anne, I don't think I've ever seen you this annoyed before. Stiff upper lip, old boy!

It's been a long while since I've gotten this pissed off against a game. I'm hoping that I'll figure out how to cheat their cheating system because I have been enjoying it greatly until this point. I'll leave it be a few hours to calm down and then figure out where it went when it accidentally ejected out of the 3DS and then slipped out of my hands and flew across the room.

...accidentally of course...it totally slipped...

>.>

That's the weird thing too; I loved XCOM Enemy Unknown (I did a Let's Play even) but something about these games makes it feel like it's more bullshit. I don't know if it's just the way I feel about it (since plenty of people called XCOM bullshit) or why this feels different to me than other "difficult" games but it does. I think part of it is that I'm being forced to do something against the game that's out of my control (Ambushes in FE and I'm not fighting these guys, I'm stopping them from running away in SMT). XCOM, for all the faults a RMG has, FELT like I was always in control and the dice just landed badly that one time.

 

[Barbas]

Sweet Sally Anne, I don't think I've ever seen you this annoyed before. Stiff upper lip, old boy!

It's been a long while since I've gotten this pissed off against a game. I'm hoping that I'll figure out how to cheat their cheating system because I have been enjoying it greatly until this point. I'll leave it be a few hours to calm down and then figure out where it went when it accidentally ejected out of the 3DS and then slipped out of my hands and flew across the room.

...accidentally of course...it totally slipped...

>.>

That's the weird thing too; I loved XCOM Enemy Unknown (I did a Let's Play even) but something about these games makes it feel like it's more bullshit. I don't know if it's just the way I feel about it (since plenty of people called XCOM bullshit) or why this feels different to me than other "difficult" games but it does. I think part of it is that I'm being forced to do something against the game that's out of my control (Ambushes in FE and I'm not fighting these guys, I'm stopping them from running away in SMT). XCOM, for all the faults a RMG has, FELT like I was always in control and the dice just landed badly that one time.

XCOM's glitches are sadly of the more jarring variety, because they don't happen very often but when they do, it's usually pretty bad news for your squad. Goodness help you if you're playing in Iron Man mode.

I remember an old friend of mine getting hopping mad at his Nintendo 64 and trying to flush his copy of Goldeneye 007 down the toilet. He tried and tried but it just wasn't happening. When I close my eyes, I can still picture him ranting and furiously jiggling the handle.

Ah, they don't make 'em like that any more...

 

[krazykidd]

I always found this interesting. Obviously the game isn't broken, because there are tons of people who beat them, without outside aid ( like a walkthrough or internet help). But then you have people that can't do it for (x , y, z) reasons regardless of getting outside help. So then it basically boiles down to difficulty curb is too steep for some, which is okay, it means the game is balanced. A game that is too easy people complain, a game is too hard people complain.

OT; anyways, i don't remember that perticular mission, but i'll tell you want helps me, when i'm stuck in a game. Take a break, go back, and try something different. I realise, i would do the same thing over and over and fail over and over. Trying something different will help you notice things you didn't notice before

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Sweet Sally Anne, I don't think I've ever seen you this annoyed before. Stiff upper lip, old boy!

It's been a long while since I've gotten this pissed off against a game. I'm hoping that I'll figure out how to cheat their cheating system because I have been enjoying it greatly until this point. I'll leave it be a few hours to calm down and then figure out where it went when it accidentally ejected out of the 3DS and then slipped out of my hands and flew across the room.

...accidentally of course...it totally slipped...

>.>

That's the weird thing too; I loved XCOM Enemy Unknown (I did a Let's Play even) but something about these games makes it feel like it's more bullshit. I don't know if it's just the way I feel about it (since plenty of people called XCOM bullshit) or why this feels different to me than other "difficult" games but it does. I think part of it is that I'm being forced to do something against the game that's out of my control (Ambushes in FE and I'm not fighting these guys, I'm stopping them from running away in SMT). XCOM, for all the faults a RMG has, FELT like I was always in control and the dice just landed badly that one time.

XCOM's glitches are sadly of the more jarring variety, because they don't happen very often but when they do, it's usually pretty bad news for your squad. Goodness help you if you're playing in Iron Man mode.

I remember an old friend of mine getting hopping mad at his Nintendo 64 and trying to flush his copy of Goldeneye 007 down the toilet. He tried and tried but it just wasn't happening. When I close my eyes, I can still picture him ranting and furiously jiggling the handle.

Ah, they don't make 'em like that any more...

dont fucking remind me, i loe the game but its a fucking glitchest, at one point one of my vet soldiers got incapacitated and fell through the floor so i couldnt revive her, isnt that nice?


as for the discussion i think the most bullshit game ive played recently is FTL, bad luck can fuck up a run regerdless of skill, thats just retarded, still love the game tough

also despite the fact its not new by a large margin, the original X-COM is full of bullshit at every turn, strategy masterpiece, but boy does it fucking loves to mess you up with RNG and cheating AI

 

[Fox12]

I love Fire Emblem to death, but I always hated when a strategy game penalized you for losing a particular character. Valkyria Chronicles, which I also love, was terrible about this. You just spent an hour beating a mission, but you're finally one turn away from victory... until some random guy comes out of hiding, kills your tank in one hit, and forces you to start from scratch. This isn't anything new, it's just a staple of the genre by now.

That said, I can't remember it being a huge deal on Fire Emblem Awakening. I would recommend finishing that one, one of the best JRPG's in years.

 

[Eve Charm]

Haven't had any problems with SMT overclocked, Love the game but can see how you can get a bit screwed going strength and going on to one of the 8 days for your first run through.

Fire emblem on the other hand forget it, If the new one didn't have casual mode I would have thrown it against the wall. Mid mission * AMBUSH * Archer spawns makes a bee line past other units to get in range and one shot a Pegasus knight, stopping right next to a heavy knight that would kill him the next turn. You can't set the AI to Kill you by any means necessary and make whatever sacrifice when YOU yourself lose the character for good if it dies.

 

[mrdude2010]

It's actually one of the things that turned me off turn based combat in general.

 

[spartan231490]

I swear to God I am about to throw this God damn game in the trash. This is the second RPG in a row that got HUGE critical acclaim and I feel like it's just garbage and here's why:

Bu-Bu-Bu-Bullshit Tactics

Spoiler: SMT: Devil Survivor Overclocked: My problems with the game

Now I had a previous issue with this game that grinding took care of but now I'm just so sick of this game that I'm ready to smash it with a hammer. I'm at the point where even the Hard Free Battles I can sleep walk through (so I can't grind because it does dick for me) but I'm stuck on this bullshit of a mission. A number of enemies are running away from me and you have to kill them before they escape (never mind that I already fought these fucks and I had to stop them from escaping so that they wouldn't come back...I guess the game forgot that part).

So you have these four guys you're fighting. They have nothing but tanks on their team so killing them takes forever. Meanwhile, all they're doing is running away. I finally had the mission beat when the game decided it didn't say "Fuck You!" enough and had the guy move twice. Seriously...what the fuck do you want game? They get to move multiple times between my turn with these fucking tanks of an enemy and I can't get any higher level than I already am.

Spoiler: Fire Emblem; Awakening: My problems with the game

Fuck ambushes. Seriously. With a rusty spoon. The game had piss-poor AI that threw itself on your spear and the only things that were an actual threat were those stupid ambushes since you can't prepare for them at all. I finally just gave up on "Fair sport" and just paired all the shitty characters with the big boys so that the ambushes couldn't pick off my weak characters as they appeared out of nowhere in my ass.

So with my *****-fest out of the way, am I growing too intolerant to bullshit or am I growing soft (or maybe it's always been this way but child-Tippy2k2 didn't care)? I used to adore this genre but it seems like most games now are substituting balance and excellent AI (when these games used to actually outsmart me) and instead just stack the deck against you to beat you. If this is the cream of the crop, I'd hate to see what the crappy versions of these games are...

Both these games are hailed as the best that you can get out of the modern Tactical RPG and both games I find are not smart or difficult; they're bullshit.

I've noticed this becoming more prevalent, but it's always been around. I think it's becoming more prevalent because games are being pressured to spend so much time and effort on graphics, instead of engine and gameplay. I had similar complaints with dragon age 2. Instead of using good enemy AI or placement, they just have either ambushes from nowhere and/or waves of enemies that continue to spawn in from nowhere so you can't know how many there are or do any real semblance of planning. Because you never know when the fight might end, you basically have to not use your skills so that you have the stamina or mana to heal when your health runs low. It's bullshit, a huge let down after origins.

 

[scorptatious]

I love Fire Emblem to death, but I always hated when a strategy game penalized you for losing a particular character. Valkyria Chronicles, which I also love, was terrible about this. You just spent an hour beating a mission, but you're finally one turn away from victory... until some random guy comes out of hiding, kills your tank in one hit, and forces you to start from scratch. This isn't anything new, it's just a staple of the genre by now.

About Valkyria Chronicles, you can actually save anywhere in battles and reload from where you were.

The game doesn't do a very good job at explaining that, but boy was I glad when I found out.

But yeah, I do find it annoying when the RNG in certain RPG's screws you over. (The original Fallout games for example. Those games were crit city.)

Of course, I tend to move on and try to be more careful about that kind of thing in the future.

 

[Pink Gregory]

I 'unno, personally I like rolling with the changes, but I'm not about to attest that it's design that everyone appreciates, or particularly good design, for that matter.

 

[Alcamonic]

While on the topic of RNG and turn-based combat.
Could someone please explain to me why the enemies in Shining Force II tend to have multiple turns with the same unit before I have even moved all of mine? It really throws off any kind of tactics when you can't plan ahead.
What I really loved about the first Shining Force was how I could beat the AI simply by taking advantage of the turn-order.

 

[Fractral]

Nah, Devil Survivor is just a really hard game. I gave up on the original at the final boss, though I've beaten the (admittedly easier) sequel several times now. Speaking of the sequel, you should give it a try. It's far better.
Are you on the mission where you have to stop one of the other characters from escaping Tokyo? If so you should ally yourself with the angels, it helps a lot. Otherwise using devil speed and bind, as well as Tyrant demons helps a lot when you're chasing down enemies.

 

[Win32error]

I can only really speak for fire emblem, haven't even played awakening, but it's always been a bit of mess. The AI has never really been able to do anything more than aim for the weakest thing in sight, so the difficulty has usually been about throwing more and more units at the players.

FE6 always had the habit of placing reinforcements of some 4-5 units, usually enough to kill most any character, right next to your backline, AND allow them to also move. Basically, it was retarded. Now FE7 (also first one released in the west, coincidence?) didn't remove the reinforcements, but they just weren't allowed to move immediately, so you could usually improvise to keep everyone alive.

Are the ambushes you mention more like FE6's or FE7's? Regardless, this BS has always been in the series, it's just that the games have recently toned down on the difficulty in general.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I'm not an expert on RPGs but those both sound like pretty legitimate gripes. Especially if in the first case the game deliberately suspended its rules to thwart you and it's not even a challenging setup.

 

[Barbas]

(Snip).

Fell through the floor?! I nearly fell out of my chair!

Spoiler: Oh no, ooooohhh no.

OT: Yeah, The whole RNG system just seems like a cheaper shortcut taken to avoid improving enemy AI. It's a pretty sorry state of affairs.

 

[Shpongled]

(Snip).

Fell through the floor?! I nearly fell out of my chair!

Spoiler: Oh no, ooooohhh no.

OT: Yeah, The whole RNG system just seems like a cheaper shortcut taken to avoid improving enemy AI. It's a pretty sorry state of affairs.

You seem to assume poor AI is just laziness on developers part, rather than because making an AI thats remains adaptive and interesting for a human being with human intelligence to play against even after 10-20+ hours of gameplay is almost impossible at the moment (for an average cost retail game).

I don't think there's a single game i've played for more than 10 hours or so that hasn't had an AI thats laughably predictable in most respects regardless of difficulty.

Since it's essentially unfeasable to make an AI that can continue outsmarting and surprising a human being even after hours of gameplay, the only other options available to make games harder (in strategy/tactic games, as opposed to skill-based games) is to ramp up bullshit, RNG, unforeseeable ambushes etc.