Amazon hired Pinkertons to spy on workers for hints at unionization.

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tstorm823

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If net worth is meaningless, why do we give a shit if it's taken away? Oh no, you vicious socialists stole somebody's imaginary money?
I don't care if that's taken away, if you want to trust-bust his wealth to pieces, feel free, but that's not what is being discussed. People are treating someone's calculated worth, the value of assets they own, as petty cash that can be handed out, and that's just not the case. If Bezos could sell off his property to get the money to give out, if there are buyers, if that's even legal, the very act of the main stakeholder at Amazon dumping his ownership of the company would make investors' confidence in the company drop, which would sink his net worth faster than he could possibly sell it.
 

Iron

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That is an important point. As is often noted, about half the USA receives more in Federal benefits than it pays in Federal income tax, and it's not dissimilar in plenty of other countries. In effect, the government has been subsidising incomes for a long time - and this essentially means subsidising employers, who otherwise would be compelled to raise wages.

Companies like Amazon, when they want to build new centres, effectively get local governments to bid against each other with ever more generous grants and offers to build Amazon's infrastructure for it, in the hope they can snaffle those jobs for their towns. And thus public money is hoovered up by obscenely rich corporations that don't need it so that they can pad their shareholders' dividends - also maintaining competitive advantages over smaller firms without that clout. The system is rotten.

Company towns of course exist in another era. Companies back in the day were much more rooted in a community - that place was a "home" for the company as well as the workers. It was not unusual for workers to dedicate their entire career to their company. Big companies aren't remotely like that these days: a work site like a factory, communications centre or even HQ is just a place that can be shut down or moved as required. They're hardly going to build a town to support something they may shutter in a few years if they can save money moving production to China. Workers aren't like that nowadays either - although I dare say that's got plenty to do with increasing job insecurity. Early industrialists had a more paternalistic attitude. Around 1900 the concept that a corporation's highest legal and ethical duty was to its shareholders was enshrined, and the 20th century was essentially decades of transition towards the neoliberal corporation where workers became nothing but a resource like steel, wood, stationery and IT equipment. It's one of the things that always enrages me about corporations who talk about their personnel in terms like "family". Even "community" makes me bristle as the reality is nothing like the comforting connotations of the term, although I accept that is at least true in the broader sense.
Agreed. I'd say that the easiness in which you can get labor is the main drive here because it facilitates high worker turnover. This is something I noticed in the generational gap - my grandmother had one job most of her working life (about 3 decades), my mother held down 4 jobs in that time, and I swap jobs a couple of times a year. I'm a bit of a sore thumb in this comparison because in most of my time as a wage-slave I worked entry-level jobs, while my mom and grandma were university graduates. Still, I'd say worker turnout is higher than it used to be. US and UK are keeping visa programs to import skilled labor like medical professionals and engineers, which hurts the native workforce, and encourages this type of labor turnover. Why would you invest in your workforce if they plan to work for you for 2 years to make money and then go back home? Why would you invest in your native workforce if you can just import the world's brightest? Now you can move your factory overseas and import skilled labor from overseas. What do you even produce at this point?

You could look at it in a wider historical view.
The black-death changed the relationship between serf and lord in Europe.
The 3 servile wars changed the way slaves were treated in Rome fundamentally.
When you've got a shortage of labor, bonds of ownership are reformed.
 

Agema

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US and UK are keeping visa programs to import skilled labor like medical professionals and engineers, which hurts the native workforce, and encourages this type of labor turnover. Why would you invest in your workforce if they plan to work for you for 2 years to make money and then go back home? Why would you invest in your native workforce if you can just import the world's brightest? Now you can move your factory overseas and import skilled labor from overseas. What do you even produce at this point?
I don't entirely agree here. A key problem with the USA and UK is they do not (cannot?) produce enough professionals in key areas. Both produce graduates at similar levels to other developed countries. However, their output of graduates in virtually all STEM fields is insufficient for their job needs: they either import labour or cannot support the high skill industries they have. And all developed countries are busy trying strip the developing world of their expertise. If we ever need to ask why there are PLA agents dotted around US universities and research institutes, it's because the USA is intentionally trying to bring over Chinese doctoral students so they'll stay and produce for the USA rather than China. (And pay to the US education system.)

I think this could lead to stagnation of the educations of the home populace, but I suspect not so much. I think they may have a long tail of low achievement at the bottom end, but that's just more to do with wider problems of societal neglect, where the USA and UK lead the developed world in leaving the poor to sink.

You could look at it in a wider historical view.
The black-death changed the relationship between serf and lord in Europe.
The 3 servile wars changed the way slaves were treated in Rome fundamentally.
When you've got a shortage of labor, bonds of ownership are reformed.
Yes about the history, but maybe no about current application. Unemployment in the USA and UK is low by international standards - even despite the supposed rampant immigration - and yet I can't help but notice it's countries like France and Germany where corporations seem to be held more in check by the state, and have higher job protections, regulations, etc.

I don't think that's about the power of labour. I think it's about capture of the government by big money and general neoliberal ideology in the USA and UK.
 

Eacaraxe

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A key problem with the USA and UK is they do not (cannot?) produce enough professionals in key areas....their output of graduates in virtually all STEM fields is insufficient for their job needs...
And I'm sure the decade and a half of "tier 1 tech support minimum requirements: four-year comp sci degree or equivalent, five years experience, A+ and N+ certifications. Starting pay: $12/hour." nonsense pumped out by the American tech sector, for the express purpose of claiming they had no qualified applicants so they could justify outsourcing or get on that H-1B gravy train, certainly had nothing to do with that. It's almost as if years of sustained wage suppression in a sector that requires degrees and high level of technical expertise, to work high-stress jobs that trend towards high turnover rates, reduces the attractiveness of that field to potential applicants, and they end up going elsewhere.

If you were just graduating from high school, which would you rather do: put yourself five or six figures in the hole getting a college degree at usurious interest rates, or go to a technical school and enter the job market making two or even three times what you'd make in the tech sector, while having better benefits, fewer hours, and less job stress? This thread's about Amazon and how shitty they are, and their corporate minimum wage for a job that basically has a requirement of "are you breathing?" is higher than most tech sector jobs' starting pay.

The tech sector shit the bed on that one, they goddamn well deserve to lay in it.
 

SupahEwok

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And I'm sure the decade and a half of "tier 1 tech support minimum requirements: four-year comp sci degree or equivalent, five years experience, A+ and N+ certifications. Starting pay: $12/hour." nonsense pumped out by the American tech sector, for the express purpose of claiming they had no qualified applicants so they could justify outsourcing or get on that H-1B gravy train, certainly had nothing to do with that. It's almost as if years of sustained wage suppression in a sector that requires degrees and high level of technical expertise, to work high-stress jobs that trend towards high turnover rates, reduces the attractiveness of that field to potential applicants, and they end up going elsewhere.

If you were just graduating from high school, which would you rather do: put yourself five or six figures in the hole getting a college degree at usurious interest rates, or go to a technical school and enter the job market making two or even three times what you'd make in the tech sector, while having better benefits, fewer hours, and less job stress? This thread's about Amazon and how shitty they are, and their corporate minimum wage for a job that basically has a requirement of "are you breathing?" is higher than most tech sector jobs' starting pay.

The tech sector shit the bed on that one, they goddamn well deserve to lay in it.
That's fine and all but IT isn't the first thing I think of when STEM is mentioned.
 

Agema

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And I'm sure the decade and a half of "tier 1 tech support minimum requirements: four-year comp sci degree or equivalent, five years experience, A+ and N+ certifications. Starting pay: $12/hour." nonsense pumped out by the American tech sector, for the express purpose of claiming they had no qualified applicants so they could justify outsourcing or get on that H-1B gravy train, certainly had nothing to do with that. It's almost as if years of sustained wage suppression in a sector that requires degrees and high level of technical expertise, to work high-stress jobs that trend towards high turnover rates, reduces the attractiveness of that field to potential applicants, and they end up going elsewhere.

If you were just graduating from high school, which would you rather do: put yourself five or six figures in the hole getting a college degree at usurious interest rates, or go to a technical school and enter the job market making two or even three times what you'd make in the tech sector, while having better benefits, fewer hours, and less job stress? This thread's about Amazon and how shitty they are, and their corporate minimum wage for a job that basically has a requirement of "are you breathing?" is higher than most tech sector jobs' starting pay.

The tech sector shit the bed on that one, they goddamn well deserve to lay in it.
There's an ongoing debate about whether degrees are really necessary far wider than just IT (in terms of my career, thank god I teach in a medical school, so no worries about collapsing student numbers and resultant job losses in my field).

It is accepted that full degrees act in many ways as "signals" of competences rather than actual necessity, and act as workers competing against each other beyond the actual requirements of the job. In the UK, clearly the government is looking at moving away from full 3-year bachelors degrees to more vocational training or other, shorter courses. It also reflects that companies largely gave up on apprenticeships: why should they spend money training staff when the staff can pay for it themselves, especially when chances are they'll skip off to a new firm in a few years?
 

tstorm823

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especially when chances are they'll skip off to a new firm in a few years?
Maybe people wouldn't be so inclined to skip off to a new firm if they weren't all hiring based on the same meaningless credentials and putting nothing into personally training their talent. Sort of a chicken and egg here.
 

Agema

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Maybe people wouldn't be so inclined to skip off to a new firm if they weren't all hiring based on the same meaningless credentials and putting nothing into personally training their talent. Sort of a chicken and egg here.
In many cases, people leave jobs for advancement. If someone is in a position for promotion or can get a better job, waiting for one to turn up in their firm is limiting their options and opportunities: and indeed, studies show that people more willing to move employer advance faster and earn more. Professional development, perks, good work environment etc. is a positive, but it's not going to be enough if a person wants to move upwards and their current firm can't offer that.

I also think some firms work on the principle that they pull in minimal level staff on the very cheap, with the expectation they'll suffer through it and leverage the experience for a better job in a year or two, so they're a constant flux of clueless to low-experience novices and chaos. They just need to make sure they have a few reliable, experienced staff to pick up the difficult stuff and provide guidance. Actually, put like that, sounds not unlike a PhD.
 

Eacaraxe

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There's an ongoing debate about whether degrees are really necessary far wider than just IT (in terms of my career, thank god I teach in a medical school, so no worries about collapsing student numbers and resultant job losses in my field).

It is accepted that full degrees act in many ways as "signals" of competences rather than actual necessity, and act as workers competing against each other beyond the actual requirements of the job. In the UK, clearly the government is looking at moving away from full 3-year bachelors degrees to more vocational training or other, shorter courses. It also reflects that companies largely gave up on apprenticeships: why should they spend money training staff when the staff can pay for it themselves, especially when chances are they'll skip off to a new firm in a few years?
That's true and I won't argue the point, but it's also not my point. It's just part of it, and my point has a lot further-reaching implications for the tech sector at large than other industries. The tech sector went to great effort, over a very long period of time, to make itself as unattractive a career field as possible to entrants in the job market, largely part and parcel to outsource and abuse visa programs.

To a certain extent, that goes way beyond inflated educational and experiential requirements, endemic underpay, and shifting the financial burden of certification to employees and prospective employees. It's cultural, too, all the way from the "tech bro" phenomenon, to tech companies' farcical adoption of progressive aesthetics which has proven itself a colossal house of cards through repeated industry-wide wage discrimination scandals, union busting, shady government contracts, and the sector's head-first dive into the sewage tank of K-street politics. Amazon itself, as an example because this is what the thread is about, is explicitly and obviously guilty of all three of the latter.

It's an employment sector that seemingly goes out of its way to piss people off, employees, end users, and third parties alike, that wants to immediately turn around and whine when no one wants to work for them or use their services (but have little alternative, due to monopoly status and fiercely anti-competitive business practices).

The question that's gone perennially unaddressed, unasked even, is not "why are there so few people going into STEM?". There is no shortage of STEM workers, the "STEM crisis" is a myth. Qualified workers are being shut out by inflated job requirements and refusal on the part of employers to cert, or they're just not seeking in that field because of its unattractiveness. The question is rather "what about STEM fields makes them so unattractive to prospective employees in the first place?".
 
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SupahEwok

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The question that's gone perennially unaddressed, unasked even, is not "why are there so few people going into STEM?". There is no shortage of STEM workers, the "STEM crisis" is a myth. Qualified workers are being shut out by inflated job requirements and refusal on the part of employers to cert, or they're just not seeking in that field because of its unattractiveness. The question is rather "what about STEM fields makes them so unattractive to prospective employees in the first place?".
I mean, once again, IT isn't what I first think of when somebody brings up "STEM". I think engineering, surveying, data science, mathematicians, physicists, pharmacists, etc. Your assertions do not apply to "STEM".
 
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Iron

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I don't entirely agree here. A key problem with the USA and UK is they do not (cannot?) produce enough professionals in key areas. Both produce graduates at similar levels to other developed countries. However, their output of graduates in virtually all STEM fields is insufficient for their job needs: they either import labour or cannot support the high skill industries they have. And all developed countries are busy trying strip the developing world of their expertise. If we ever need to ask why there are PLA agents dotted around US universities and research institutes, it's because the USA is intentionally trying to bring over Chinese doctoral students so they'll stay and produce for the USA rather than China. (And pay to the US education system.)

I think this could lead to stagnation of the educations of the home populace, but I suspect not so much. I think they may have a long tail of low achievement at the bottom end, but that's just more to do with wider problems of societal neglect, where the USA and UK lead the developed world in leaving the poor to sink.



Yes about the history, but maybe no about current application. Unemployment in the USA and UK is low by international standards - even despite the supposed rampant immigration - and yet I can't help but notice it's countries like France and Germany where corporations seem to be held more in check by the state, and have higher job protections, regulations, etc.

I don't think that's about the power of labour. I think it's about capture of the government by big money and general neoliberal ideology in the USA and UK.
Remind yourself when I showed a little statistics chart for underemployment and unemployment in NYU graduates, where I showed the severe uselessness of liberal arts degree, and you gleefully pointed at the relatively high unemployment for SC graduates. Employers are filling their seats with engineers from abroad. Much cheaper.
 

Agema

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Remind yourself when I showed a little statistics chart for underemployment and unemployment in NYU graduates, where I showed the severe uselessness of liberal arts degree, and you gleefully pointed at the relatively high unemployment for SC graduates. Employers are filling their seats with engineers from abroad. Much cheaper.
I pointed out some science, business and technical degrees that are often touted as providing for "proper" jobs have similarly poor stats. Unemployment figures can be misleading without more detail on why people don't get jobs. This can be things like geographical issues (they don't want to move to where the jobs are), or they've got wealth to squat on and put off the grind of getting a job so they can carry on having an extended life of low responsibility fun before the drag of a career, or that many of the jobs available in their field need more than a degree (as Eacaraxe points out, many job adverts stress degree plus X years experience), or maybe they just haven't yet learnt they're a lot less shit hot than they think and need to apply for less ambitious posts. Whatever, there can be localised bottlenecks of unemployed workers in a field that generally needs employees.

Foreign engineers are not cheaper. When you apply for the average job, it's at a certain level with a set salary for all employees on that level - because discrimination laws and all. Bring in a foreign engineer, they are therefore going for the same job at the same level with the same salary, and it is not cheaper for the employer.

But the real crux of the issue I'm getting at is that the USA has a phenomenal capability to create jobs in IT and software engineering. But that capability is in large part its ability to feed job creation with workers, and that it can hire brilliant workers from a global pool of 7-8 billion rather than a modest national pool of 300 million which would otherwise mean more mediocrity. If it cuts the labour supply, it impairs the ability to create those jobs. Investors will be less likely to fund start-ups and expansions in a place where they are unlikely to be able to recruit and maintain the workforce to do the job desired.
 

Trunkage

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Maybe people wouldn't be so inclined to skip off to a new firm if they weren't all hiring based on the same meaningless credentials and putting nothing into personally training their talent. Sort of a chicken and egg here.
It would be really cool if bosses/CEOs would understand that training talent would be important factor of the business instead of expecting perfect results from new hires without them putting in any effort. Unfortunately, understanding employees and developing them isn’t a prerequisite for management. In fact, that’s usually seen as a liability
 

Iron

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I pointed out some science, business and technical degrees that are often touted as providing for "proper" jobs have similarly poor stats. Unemployment figures can be misleading without more detail on why people don't get jobs. This can be things like geographical issues (they don't want to move to where the jobs are), or they've got wealth to squat on and put off the grind of getting a job so they can carry on having an extended life of low responsibility fun before the drag of a career, or that many of the jobs available in their field need more than a degree (as Eacaraxe points out, many job adverts stress degree plus X years experience), or maybe they just haven't yet learnt they're a lot less shit hot than they think and need to apply for less ambitious posts. Whatever, there can be localised bottlenecks of unemployed workers in a field that generally needs employees.

Foreign engineers are not cheaper. When you apply for the average job, it's at a certain level with a set salary for all employees on that level - because discrimination laws and all. Bring in a foreign engineer, they are therefore going for the same job at the same level with the same salary, and it is not cheaper for the employer.

But the real crux of the issue I'm getting at is that the USA has a phenomenal capability to create jobs in IT and software engineering. But that capability is in large part its ability to feed job creation with workers, and that it can hire brilliant workers from a global pool of 7-8 billion rather than a modest national pool of 300 million which would otherwise mean more mediocrity. If it cuts the labour supply, it impairs the ability to create those jobs. Investors will be less likely to fund start-ups and expansions in a place where they are unlikely to be able to recruit and maintain the workforce to do the job desired.
Regarding the foreign engineers paragraph - it works the way you described if it there is no ill intent behind it.
The way it is done, which was alluded to by Ear, is that you set up these senior coding positions and pay as if they were junior coders. You pay junior coders literal minimum wage. This way, appropriate candidates (that are fit for the job) won't apply because of the low pay, and beginning engineers will attempt to apply for the senior coder positions (and get rejected because they don't have the credentials) or won't apply for the junior coding positions because it pays as much as McDonalds. Then the company can turn to the US gov and say "Hey, we can't find appropriate candidates for these jobs in the US. Give us visas for candidates overseas". Then BOOM, they find the right people with the skills, but they ask for less money.

I'm in favor of this kind of open movement of professional labor in the academic field (universities, research). Other fields, not so much.
 

Seanchaidh

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It would be really cool if bosses/CEOs would understand that training talent would be important factor of the business instead of expecting perfect results from new hires without them putting in any effort. Unfortunately, understanding employees and developing them isn’t a prerequisite for management. In fact, that’s usually seen as a liability
It would cost time/money to train people, so it can be more profitable to just let them sink or swim and replace the ones who sink until results are adequate. Obviously, this depends on what exactly sinking or swimming entails in each particular case.
 

Eacaraxe

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Unfortunately, understanding employees and developing them isn’t a prerequisite for management. In fact, that’s usually seen as a liability
Unironically, this is one thing Amazon does well, in all the wrong ways. Amazon is operationally no finer example of the Peter principle in motion, specifically for the fact they put undue weight on success stories in the process of moving up the corporate ladder, and subordinate development is one of the better success stories an applicant for a promotion can bring to the table. Which means promotion-hungry salaried employees gravitate towards developing the best schmoozers, can-kickers, whipping boys, and scapegoat-hunters, and rarely people capable of doing the job. And, they spend more time "developing" their employees on interview skills, not skills they need to do the job.

Once an employee gets that success story, literally zero fucks are given as to whether the subject of that "development" succeeds or fails in turn. That's perceived to be on their head, not the fuck-up of the employee who "developed" them in the first place.

Which is a large chunk of why Amazon's turnover rate even among salaried employees is horrific, among everything else you've heard about the company. The rule of thumb is "you're moving up or you're moving out", which in practice means you climb the ladder until you achieve your level of incompetence, at which point you're inevitably put on PIP, which is effectively Amazon's way of saying "it's time to find work elsewhere before we fire you".
 

Agema

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Regarding the foreign engineers paragraph - it works the way you described if it there is no ill intent behind it.
The way it is done, which was alluded to by Ear, is that you set up these senior coding positions and pay as if they were junior coders. You pay junior coders literal minimum wage. This way, appropriate candidates (that are fit for the job) won't apply because of the low pay, and beginning engineers will attempt to apply for the senior coder positions (and get rejected because they don't have the credentials) or won't apply for the junior coding positions because it pays as much as McDonalds. Then the company can turn to the US gov and say "Hey, we can't find appropriate candidates for these jobs in the US. Give us visas for candidates overseas". Then BOOM, they find the right people with the skills, but they ask for less money.

I'm in favor of this kind of open movement of professional labor in the academic field (universities, research). Other fields, not so much.
I think the process you're describing there - employers paying people as little as they can and in some cases less than they obviously should - is simply called "capitalism".

It's a lot of what "efficiency" is: getting staff to do more work for less money. Like scrapping people's jobs and but inviting them to apply for this brand new job they've created, which turns out to be exactly the same work but at a lower grade with less pay. Or the wheeze where they sell off services, with an agreement that workers transfer to the the new company seamlessly. So they do, and instantly get fired. Why? Well, if the original organisation made them redundant, it would have to pay a severence package. But if it can persuade them to leave voluntarily, once they've started what is technically a new job with a new employer, they can be fired cost-free because there are no employment protections for the first year. And then replaced with cheaper staff.

I'm not sure I agree with the extent of Eacaraxe's post that it's a devious, intended plot to force the USA to open up visas for computer scientists, but the principle of getting people to do work above their pay grade is standard and widespread. It's quite easy to do: everyone might know they should be paid more to do that work, but someone's going to do it a) because they believe in getting things done and/or b) they know being one of those proactive achiever types gets them ahead on the career ladder. This is the same sorts of reason lots of organisations have ways of encouraging or even pressuring overtime that they won't pay for: expecting staff to put in an extra 30-60 mins a day.

All bread and butter capitalism.
 

Iron

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I think the process you're describing there - employers paying people as little as they can and in some cases less than they obviously should - is simply called "capitalism".

It's a lot of what "efficiency" is: getting staff to do more work for less money. Like scrapping people's jobs and but inviting them to apply for this brand new job they've created, which turns out to be exactly the same work but at a lower grade with less pay. Or the wheeze where they sell off services, with an agreement that workers transfer to the the new company seamlessly. So they do, and instantly get fired. Why? Well, if the original organisation made them redundant, it would have to pay a severence package. But if it can persuade them to leave voluntarily, once they've started what is technically a new job with a new employer, they can be fired cost-free because there are no employment protections for the first year. And then replaced with cheaper staff.

I'm not sure I agree with the extent of Eacaraxe's post that it's a devious, intended plot to force the USA to open up visas for computer scientists, but the principle of getting people to do work above their pay grade is standard and widespread. It's quite easy to do: everyone might know they should be paid more to do that work, but someone's going to do it a) because they believe in getting things done and/or b) they know being one of those proactive achiever types gets them ahead on the career ladder. This is the same sorts of reason lots of organisations have ways of encouraging or even pressuring overtime that they won't pay for: expecting staff to put in an extra 30-60 mins a day.

All bread and butter capitalism.
"Muh Capitalism"
"
A US tech company based in a Redmond, Washington, has been found guilty of H-1B workers abuse. The US Department of Labor Wage and Hour Division (WHD) investigation has found that the company, named People Tech Group Inc., paid to foreign H-1B workers in US entry-level wages, despite that they performed work of experience employees. These workers, who were computer analysts and computer programmers, were supposed to receive higher prevailing wages.
"
But Iron, this is just one company, it isn't so widespread - no it isn't, go look it up.

It's all so tiresome with you guys.