America calls England's NHS service "evil" after Obama's latest proposal to change healthcare system

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The Rogue Wolf

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Okay, I'm going to do a little deconstruction on both sides here, since I'm in favor of making sure that all Americans have access to adequate basic health care but don't really agree with how this is being gone about.

Firstly, the free-market system is far from perfect itself. Case in point: Many health plans require a doctor to see a certain number of patients every hour- usually six to eight. This leaves a doctor about 7-10 minutes to give a patient a full checkup, ask questions and follow up on any problems. This is nowhere near long enough to gain any sort of insight into a person's health, and as a result, rather than perform an extensive checkup and Q&A with the patient, the doctor will simply order tests to be done for any symptoms the patient might express. This is an unnecessary expense, and also places the patient's health secondary to the doctor's busy schedule. The covered tests cost the insurance company money, which means they must raise rates to keep profits up, placing higher expenses on individuals and businesses. So much trouble that could be avoided if the doctor simply had time to follow up on potential problems during the initial visit.

Secondly, there are far too many people for whom health insurance just isn't possible, or at best can only be attained at a bare minimum level. Therefore, small problems that aren't covered by their plan are ignored until they spiral out of control, requiring emergency room treatment (and possibly even an ambulance ride on top of that, which is expensive). If the health plan doesn't cover it and the patient can't pay, the hospital must eat the cost of the treatment- and will raise prices on other things to make up for it. Again, more costs for everyone else.

Now, against the other side of this argument. For those of you who think that the U.S. government is perfect to step into the role of health care supervisor, I strongly suggest you take a good, long look at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Created to take care of our wounded servicemen- some of the most revered and respected people in American society- the VA has been embroiled in scandals, controversies and lawsuits for decades. It has been accused of turning a blind eye towards poor doctors (even after lives have been lost to malpractice), denying claims for arbitrary reasons and providing utterly atrocious facilities and housing for disabled veterans. While it's true that corporate greed can harm patients, so can bureaucratic indifference.

A big problem I'm seeing here is the tossing about of words like "evil". Yes, the Republicans who spoke that way about the NHS are pretty well idiots- but there's a lot of stupidity coming from the other side of the aisle as well, with Democrats calling anyone who questions this new plan monsters who care more about money than human life. It's the height of idiocy for ANYONE to be doing this- a problem so vast and complex is not going to be solved by one side's all-encompassing plan without the help of knowledgeable and concerned people on the other.

But hey, I suppose this strange view is what I get from being a fiscal conservative but a social liberal.
 

kawligia

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The Rogue Wolf said:
For those of you who think that the U.S. government is perfect to step into the role of health care supervisor, I strongly suggest you take a good, long look at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Created to take care of our wounded servicemen- some of the most revered and respected people in American society- the VA has been embroiled in scandals, controversies and lawsuits for decades. It has been accused of turning a blind eye towards poor doctors (even after lives have been lost to malpractice), denying claims for arbitrary reasons and providing utterly atrocious facilities and housing for disabled veterans. While it's true that corporate greed can harm patients, so can bureaucratic indifference.

But hey, I suppose this strange view is what I get from being a fiscal conservative but a social liberal.
This.

Seriously, how many government bureaucracies have done their jobs, done them properly, done them efficiently, and in a timely fashion?

I would wager somewhere in the neighborhood of ZERO.
 

Dele

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Zani said:
Well that's a rude generalization, communism isn't fair, but a light social democracy is however very fair. For example, socialised health care is fair, since everyone gets treatment and not just the ones who can afford it.
You do not need socialised healthcare for everyone to be able to get treatment. This is a common fallacy reinforced by the supporters of public healthcare.
 

Plinglebob

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I would like to thank the OP for showing me that without realising it, I have fulfilled my childhood dream of working for a large evil organisation and for also giving a lot of laughs to people in the office I work in.
 

Vuljatar

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Calling it "evil" is pure hyperbole. Call it what it is--another way for a government to waste taxpayer money and control citizens lives.
 

Shoqiyqa

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On the subject of Republican vs Democrat positions on levels of government control and provision, nazism, socialism, communism, capitalism, totalitarianism, libertarianism, anarchy, freedom and so on, can we please adopt the two-dimensional system of The Political Compass [http://politicalcompass.org/] rather than just one dimension?

From totalitarian to anarchic:

Top-centre, slightly left: the BNP. Top-centre, slightly right: Hitler.
Top-left: Stalin. Top-right: Alan Keyes, Mitt Romney and Sarah Palin.
Top-right: Michael Peroutka.
High and far-right: Tom Tancredo and Newt Gingrich.
High and right: Chuck Baldwin, John McCain, Margaret Thatcher, Rudy Giuliani, Mich Huckabee, George W Bush and Bob Barr.
With that cluster: The UK Conservative party and Australia's One Nation party.

Down and right a little from there: Australia's Liberal party.
Down and left a little from there: The UK Labour party and Australia's National party.

Down and right a little: Australia's Family First party.

Up and left from the centre: New Zealand's Pacific and Progressive parties.
Up and right from the centre: Barack Obama, Joe Biden and John Kerry, the UK Conservative party in 1972 and Australia's Labor party.
Far right, above centre: Ron Paul.

Slightly right and below centre: Australia's Democrats party.
Out to the right with Labour but below centre: the UK Liberal Democrat party.

Far right, below centre: Michael Badnarik (US-style Libertarian, apparently).
Left of centre, below centre: David Cobb, Cynthia McKinney and Ralph Nader, the UK Labour party in 1972 and Australia's Greens party.
Far left, below centre: Walt Brown and Brian Moore.

Straight below centre: the UK Liberal Democrat party in 1999.

Low and left: the UK Green party. They're totalitarian about the environment and don't give a **** what else you do, apparently.

* * * * *​

Yes, there's a general trend among these parties, but it's from Hippie to Hitler, not from Stalin to Libertarian.

If you don't like the labels "Right", "Left", "Libertarian" and "Authoritarian", feel free to think of them as "**** the poor", "**** the rich", "**** the government" and "**** YOU ALL!!!" instead.

Of all the party blobs shown, the nearest to Hitler are our BNP and Germany's National Democrats. Goes to show how little difference there is between Socialist and Democrat in a name eh? The nearest to Stalin is Sinn Fein. If you scroll down "Analysis", though, you'll see someone closer: Robert Mugabe.
 

romannelli

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On reading some of these comments [I'm from the Uk], first, let me tell anyone from the USA that is's the BRITISH NHS not English, it serves all the constituent Countries of the UK ie, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Yes, there are things within the NHS that could and should be better, but overall there is absolutely no fear by anyone in these Islands to fear about getting sick/accident etc'. Nothing is perfect and the American fear mongers are using anything to scupper these proposals.
I'll give a good example, four weeks ago after a routine medical for my Taxi Licence, blood was found in my urine sample......Immediately the Doctor tried to book me into the Local Hospital. As the waiting list was more than four weeks I was booked into a Private hospital [paid for by the NHS] although it wasn't an emergency, I had an appointment that I attended today 3 weeks later. There was an ultra sound test, bloood test, urine test and saw the Consultant to discuss findings etc'. This did not show any visibale abnormalities. Result, I have to go back in a couple of weeks for a cystoscopy [camera inserted into the bladder] for an even more detailed search to see if there is anything wrong.....if anything bad had been found during this initial search I would have been admitted within a few days!!!
Sorry to go into so much detail, but in view of some comments, I would like anyone in america who may read this, that it has not, and will not cost me a penny, now or in the future should anything require further treatment.
I am no bloody Socialist, far from it, but if you think this system is Socialist then you are seriously flawed in your thinking!!!
look to the bloody selfish vested interested People/businesses that don't want this bill passed. God forbid, they may have to reign in on some of their priviliged lifestyle to look after the population that they swore to do regardless of money.....I think you will find that it was/is called the Hippocratic Oath.
Dave Thatcher...UK
PS.
We over here are getting a little pissed off about comments all the time regarding TEETH...what's so bloody good about some of yours!! I've seen enough people on Tv/films and on visits to the States etc' who could seriously consider consulting a dentist.....so just give it a rest will you, nobodys perfect!!!!
 

wewontdie11

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God forbid the American upper classes should support something that is actually good for less well off people...
 

Infiniteloop

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Anyone posting in here, who is American, ever been in a foreign hospital [Germany/South Korea]?

No thank you. I'll take the American healthcare system.

There is no such thing as "free". Someone, somewhere is paying for it.
 

titanium turtle

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- some people are just idiots

idiot:"oh no Obama is being a bit sociaist and is trying to give the less well off an opportunity to not die if injured, he is being evil"

people like this are just dicks- the NHS is not evil and helps many people- everyone sane loves the NHS
 

'Stache

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Zani said:
What's with the irrational fear of just a tiny bit of socialism in America?

I get the impression that socialism is worse in America than neo-nazism is in Germany.
It's probably because America spent a good 50 years fighting socialism, and since America is always right, then socialism must be bad.
Actually, it's because Americans love freedom more than we love prosperity.
 

mikecoulter

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Dec 27, 2008
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Viva La NHS!

The NHS have saved some of my families lives and saved us tens of thousands of pounds. I laugh at one American on the news I saw who went, "The NHS doesn't work! Have you seen the British' teeth?".

I laughed.
 

'Stache

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TheDrHuw said:
How is getting free healthcare bad? it may not be very good but it gets the job done.
It's not free. We just pay the government instead of the doctors. Also, I don't want healthcare that "gets the job done." I want healthcare that makes me healthy.
High five for ignorance and presumptuousness!
 

'Stache

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wewontdie11 said:
God forbid the American upper classes should support something that is actually good for less well off people...
Right, the real reason we don't hand our personal lives over to the government is because...um...because we hate poor people!
 

mikecoulter

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TheDrHuw said:
How is getting free healthcare bad? it may not be very good but it gets the job done.
It's not free. We just pay the government instead of the doctors. Also, I don't want healthcare that "gets the job done." I want healthcare that makes me healthy.
High five for ignorance and presumptuousness!
But you pay far less in the long run! And are you saying everyone in the UK is unhealthy then? Seeing as we live so much longer...
 

'Stache

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mikecoulter said:
TheDrHuw said:
How is getting free healthcare bad? it may not be very good but it gets the job done.
It's not free. We just pay the government instead of the doctors. Also, I don't want healthcare that "gets the job done." I want healthcare that makes me healthy.
High five for ignorance and presumptuousness!
But you pay far less in the long run! And are you saying everyone in the UK is unhealthy then? Seeing as we live so much longer...
Yes, when I said that I want high quality healthcare regardless of expense, I was totally insulting your country.
 

teknoarcanist

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They called it "evil and orwellian" XD

Yeah, remember that Orwell novel where the shadowy government is host to a secret conspiracy which provides people with quality healthcare? Harrowing stuff.

Better be careful or SOME DAY THAT COULD HAPPEN TO US!!!
 

Lord George

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I love knowing I'm free to endanger my well-being because the government pays for it and that I'll never have to worry about going bankrupt because I catch an illness I'd imagine we have better Teeth then Americans as well because we get free dental care on the NHS up till 18.