American Women need Sexual Freedom, Instead of Victimizing Themselves

[Danish rage]

Well, apart from generalizing about Danish men and women having oodles of casual sex (to the point where I almost feel that your are slandering me (being a Danish guy myself)) you have some excellent points. The first step towards not being victimized is to stop playing the victim.

well we kind of do, don´t we?

Other than, you´re both right.

I guess as a people, we do, but as a person, I don't, and I'd prefer not to be lumped in with the people who do. Not that there's anything wrong with that lifestyle, but it isn't one that I subscribe to, and I am getting tired of generalizations that put me somewhere I don't belong.

well, i would think another Danish trait is not to care to much about stuff like this.

I haven´t had sex in 6 month, but im still aware that we DO have a lot of it in Denmark.

It´s for the sake of argument, not a attack on any lifestyle in particular.

 

[Vryyk]

You should probably consider actually reading his post before you run your own mouth. He didnt even touch on rape in any real detail.

Also, what you are saying about coercion implies females are too weak to defend themselves and too thin-skinned to get out of abusive relationships. Unless someone is physically trapping you in their domicile (which is a whole other matter), you can always leave.

Stop pretending females are helpless and need the law to save them.

OK stupid, Have you ever had someone holding you down choking the life out of you? Screaming they wished you were dead? In my case, my ex husband had all control of finances, and when I went to the law he walked right through the protective order! Hell the night he choked me I fought back he called the cops on me and I almost went to jail. So no I am not always keen on running to the cops. Until you have been there you cannot say what to do

Alright, if these stories you keep producing are actually true, that's tough. Humans are dicks and all that. But you need to calm down, screaming and flailing at 50% of the human race isn't good for you, and it certainly doesn't help the thread.

Everyone goes through difficult shit in life, dredging up what may or may not have happened to you in the past doesn't prove anything. And insinuating there is no recourse to crimes committed against women due to biased male cops is just plain wrong.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Alright, if these stories you keep producing are actually true, that's tough. Humans are dicks and all that. But you need to calm down, screaming and flailing at 50% of the human race isn't good for you, and it certainly doesn't help the thread.

Everyone goes through difficult shit in life, dredging up what may or may not have happened to you in the past doesn't prove anything. And insinuating there is no recourse to crimes committed against women due to biased male cops is just plain wrong.

Yes, it's all very fun persecuting rape victims, but it doesn't really help your case to deny their experiences and tell them they just need to get over it.

Quite possibly a female victim of violence who has had dealings with the police might know something about how the police treats female victims of violence.

 

[Vryyk]

Alright, if these stories you keep producing are actually true, that's tough. Humans are dicks and all that. But you need to calm down, screaming and flailing at 50% of the human race isn't good for you, and it certainly doesn't help the thread.

Everyone goes through difficult shit in life, dredging up what may or may not have happened to you in the past doesn't prove anything. And insinuating there is no recourse to crimes committed against women due to biased male cops is just plain wrong.

Yes, it's all very fun persecuting rape victims, but it doesn't really help your case to deny their experiences and tell them they just need to get over it.

Quite possibly a female victim of violence who has had dealings with the police might know something about how the police treats female victims of violence.

Oh Lord, I was wondering when the "p" word was gonna get thrown out there. Look, my old man hit me a lot as a kid, but that doesn't mean I should hate all adults, and it definitely doesn't mean I should dwell on it for the rest of my adult life.

Also, I never told her to get over it, I said she should calm down. Which she should.


(p.s, girls can become cops too ya know >.>)

 

[s0denone]

Again that is not the tone of the OP. The OP was painting of tone that rape victims are really asking for it. Maybe if the OP had made it more apparent then the response would not have been so harsh.

And Men can be raped by women and other men.

??
Where am I blaming anyone for their own rape?
I have stated numerous times, that I do not(OF COURSE) condone any of the actions listed in the OP. I try to offer my point on why they are problems, though.

I have already apologised for offending you, and for the experience you have had to go through.

Will you please highlight the portion(s) of my OP where I speak ill of rape-victims, am a rape apologist or anything to the like? If not here in the thread, then in a PM.

For a fun exercise, will you please highlight anything in the op that even mildly has anything to do with rape? I think I make it abundantly clear that I am not talking about "rape"(forced sexual intercourse) in any of the examples listed. I am very specific in pointing out I am talking about "non-consensual sex while intoxicated", "coercion"(later clarified that I think threats of violence equal rape, and am working from a strictly verbal definition), and "groping".

In no way am I even remotely interested in the subject of actual "rape", and I would never dream of belitteling people (men or women) who have gone through such an experience.

You will have to excuse any harsh phrasings here, but I am getting tired of you filling up my thread with points and arguments that are frankly off-topic.

well, i would think another Danish trait is not to care to much about stuff like this.

I haven´t had sex in 6 month, but im still aware that we DO have a lot of it in Denmark.

It´s for the sake of argument, not a attack on any lifestyle in particular.

Exactly.
Merely making a point.
Quite sure SultanP understood that, but just wanted to make clear we weren't all fucking like rabbits

Yes, it's all very fun persecuting rape victims, but it doesn't really help your case to deny their experiences and tell them they just need to get over it.

Quite possibly a female victim of violence who has had dealings with the police might know something about how the police treats female victims of violence.

Are you going to continue our discussion at some point?

 

[ZtH]

If you go back through this entire thread, and replace each instance of s0denone citing or blaming US sexual repression with the phrase "because I've never seen Jersey Shore," it profoundly sheds new light on the entire discussion.

A show about an isolated community in which sex is prevalent does not speak to the repression of the larger society. In fact in Japan, where the culture is very sexually repressed, you regularly see things on television which would be deemed indecent here. Shows like that are an outlet for feelings that aren't being expressed elsewhere because it would be socially taboo. A truly liberated society in regards to sex would not depict it in such an immature way, instead treating it like any other subject.

 

[s0denone]

A show about an isolated community in which sex is prevalent does not speak to the repression of the larger society. In fact in Japan, where the culture is very sexually repressed, you regularly see things on television which would be deemed indecent here. Shows like that are an outlet for feelings that aren't being expressed elsewhere because it would be socially taboo. A truly liberated society in regards to sex would not depict it in such an immature way, instead treating it like any other subject.

I'm sorry to post just to say this, but: Don't bother.
He has been consistently trolling other threads too.

I'd rather people (myself included) stopped replying to him, so that maybe he would leave my thread alone.

 

[AmayaOnnaOtaku]

You should probably consider actually reading his post before you run your own mouth. He didnt even touch on rape in any real detail.

Also, what you are saying about coercion implies females are too weak to defend themselves and too thin-skinned to get out of abusive relationships. Unless someone is physically trapping you in their domicile (which is a whole other matter), you can always leave.

Stop pretending females are helpless and need the law to save them.

OK stupid, Have you ever had someone holding you down choking the life out of you? Screaming they wished you were dead? In my case, my ex husband had all control of finances, and when I went to the law he walked right through the protective order! Hell the night he choked me I fought back he called the cops on me and I almost went to jail. So no I am not always keen on running to the cops. Until you have been there you cannot say what to do

Alright, if these stories you keep producing are actually true, that's tough. Humans are dicks and all that. But you need to calm down, screaming and flailing at 50% of the human race isn't good for you, and it certainly doesn't help the thread.

Everyone goes through difficult shit in life, dredging up what may or may not have happened to you in the past doesn't prove anything. And insinuating there is no recourse to crimes committed against women due to biased male cops is just plain wrong.

I never got to screaming and flailing. As I remember you were the one who starting with the snarky cut.

Yes, People go through difficult shit in life (some of us get a bigger serving than others) but accusing someone of making it up? Wow, You are lower than low. And I never insuated. Giving my own story that going to the cops didn't help.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

A drunk person can not legally consent to non emergency surgery, sign a contract of any kind, or get married. So why do you think they should be allowed to consent to sex? In all those other cases the law recognizes they are unable to give consent, it therefore only follows that they are unable to consent to sex as well.

Those things have long lasting results. Sex does not.

Sex, in this case, is a one off action. If you say you can't have sex then what can you do? It logically follows that if you can't decide to have sex you can't decide to do anything, ergo doing anything while drunk is illegal (Edit: or the perpetrator of whatever action can't be held responsible for said action, whatever it may be).

It comes down to responsibility for ones actions and the shirking of it. People hate responsibility and try to wriggle out of it whenever they can, like a child who's done wrong and then hides somewhere.

As I said previously I've slept with women I wouldn't have if I'd been sober. I have friends, both male and female, who have done the same thing. Do you know what the decision we've all independently come to is? If we don't want it to happen again don't get so stupidly drunk.

Yeah, you are totally right. Because apart from the obvious nine months of pregnancy and a lifetime with a child (or the choice of an abortion), there is obviously no other lasting effect of sex, right? Unless we take potential STDs into account and the mental trauma of having been sexually violated.

Sorry, but that idea is silly. Just as the idea that you can decide to "not get too drunk". I believe that most people in this thread that goes out drinking with any semblance of frequency will know that some times you just don't hold your alcohol as well as others. And sometimes you drink more then you intended too (this is an obvious side effect of drinking something that lowers your inhibitions). It isn't as easy as just saying "no".

The perpetrator has a choice when it comes to having sex with a person that has been drinking too much. The perpetrator can decide that the other person is too drunk and walk away. It is a bad judgement call from the victim, but an even worse judgement call from the perpetrator. I shouldn't have been drinking that much, but you definately shouldn't have decided to have sex with me when you realized I could barely stand because I was so drunk. This comes down to this old line of reasoning: "No one is going to blame you for wearing a rolex in a shady neighbourhood and thus tell you that you had it coming when you got robbed of it". Likewise, no one should blame the guy or girl who gets too drunk and gets taken advantage off.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

Well in th3e situation where the guy is sober you may have a point. But most of the wrongful acusation spring from situations where both parties are drunk enough that it has altered their perceptions and how they would act. And in that situation its currently the mans fault, EVEN IF the woman did the hitting on the man. Its no black/white theres a lot of grey which needs to be accounted for so people don't get labelled as rapists when they went out got too drunk and slept with somebody.

You know, being intoxicated or under the influence of any other substance is not an excuse to commit crimes. Just as "she was hitting on him before she became too drunk"/"She was hitting on him before she said no and he forced her to have sex with him anyway" isn't really an excuse for a rape.

Just like you don't deserve to be robbed because you flaunted your thick wad of hundred dollar bills in a shady neighbourhood, a woman does not deserve to be raped because she was flirting or got too drunk. After all, flirting is a common form of social interaction and no one deserves to be raped because they were flirting. Flirting does not equate to wanting to have sex, even if I get the feeling that some people in this topic will find that notion strange.

 

[kurupt87]

Those things have long lasting results. Sex does not.

Sex, in this case, is a one off action. If you say you can't have sex then what can you do? It logically follows that if you can't decide to have sex you can't decide to do anything, ergo doing anything while drunk is illegal (Edit: or the perpetrator of whatever action can't be held responsible for said action, whatever it may be).

It comes down to responsibility for ones actions and the shirking of it. People hate responsibility and try to wriggle out of it whenever they can, like a child who's done wrong and then hides somewhere.

As I said previously I've slept with women I wouldn't have if I'd been sober. I have friends, both male and female, who have done the same thing. Do you know what the decision we've all independently come to is? If we don't want it to happen again don't get so stupidly drunk.

Yeah, you are totally right. Because apart from the obvious nine months of pregnancy and a lifetime with a child (or the choice of an abortion), there is obviously no other lasting effect of sex, right? Unless we take potential STDs into account...

Condoms.

...and the mental trauma of having been sexually violated.

Getting drunk and getting laid, then regretting it in the morning, isn't rape.

Rape is non consensual and forced, either through threats or physical force.

Sorry, but that idea is silly. Just as the idea that you can decide to "not get too drunk". I believe that most people in this thread that goes out drinking with any semblance of frequency will know that some times you just don't hold your alcohol as well as others. And sometimes you drink more then you intended too (this is an obvious side effect of drinking something that lowers your inhibitions). It isn't as easy as just saying "no".

The main reason people plan not to get too drunk if they don't want to. Also a big reason why people go out drinking with friends, so they have people there to look after them when they do get hammered; intentionally or otherwise.

I used to get drunk to absurd levels. Fights, vandalism, arguments, vomiting, one nighters (on both sides of this debate) and waking up not remembering a bit of it were a very common occurence for me. I respect myself enough to apportion myself with some blame for all of these actions, why don't you?

The perpetrator has a choice when it comes to having sex with a person that has been drinking too much. The perpetrator can decide that the other person is too drunk and walk away. It is a bad judgement call from the victim, but an even worse judgement call from the perpetrator. I shouldn't have been drinking that much, but you definately shouldn't have decided to have sex with me when you realized I could barely stand because I was so drunk. This comes down to this old line of reasoning: "No one is going to blame you for wearing a rolex in a shady neighbourhood and thus tell you that you had it coming when you got robbed of it". Likewise, no one should blame the guy or girl who gets too drunk and gets taken advantage off.

Yes they should, to a point.

You can't absolve the so called victim of all blame. If the "perp" is sober then that person is a manipulative prick no doubt, he/she won't be a rapist as long as there was consent though. If someone chooses to use judgement impairing substances that does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions, it just explains them.

If someone is drunk and crashes do the cops let you off? Of course not. You sure as shit regret it though. Why is that any different from someone who regrets having sex with someone while they were drunk?

Spoiler: I think there's wires getting crossed here.

To be honest I think alot of the contention on this issue arises from both sides placing themselves as the victim.

The female victim imagines a situation where a sober man picks up a woman who is drunk to the point where coherency is non existant. This would be rape because consent isn't given.


The male victim imagines a situation where he's drunk and the woman he's flirting with is drunk, both/either to varying degrees. They go back and have sex and then sleep, in the morning the woman regrets it. This could be for anything, from the look of the guy to his attitude in the morning to thinking she has somehow let herself down terribly because one nighters are inherently bad and something to be ashamed of. She then accuses him of rape.

The law is completely on her side despite the fact that nothing untoward went on. It facilitates and legalises false rape charges.

One of those situations is definitely bad. The other is likely to be even worse.

One of those is already classified as rape and doesn't need an additional law. One imprisons innocent people.