An article from a former sjw woman and a gamer.

[GloatingSwine]

Whatever you think of the SJW label, what's for sure is that a sensible person won't ever call herself one. The article is therefore suspect.

That's because it was invented as pejorative term for a nonexistent social conspiracy which in reality consists of some people asking other people to treat people like people.

If you see someone using the term as if it's serious, it should be a major red flag for their credibility.

 

[Silvanus]

the problem is that, its not much different from me reviewing dust an elysian tail and knocking points off of it for its furry art style, i legitimately didnt like the style, but dust isnt a worse game because of it, the animation is in fact very fluid and detailed and the gameplay is overall fantastic

Criticising a style is perfectly valid-- I would consider that a legitimate criticism, if you explained it well in the review.

Still, prejudice and stereotyping are a little more insidious than just using a style one doesn't care for.

i havent seen much criticism towards gays in other media to be honest, maybe im disconnected in that regard

im not assuming the gay/bi community is homogenous, only that we should be careful of confusing homophobia with legitimate criticism

i assume tokenism can be a problem when you add characters "just because" ANY character added "just because" can potentially make the narrative very jarring, and this isnt an issue exclusive to gay/bi characters, things like mascots characters, characters made only to sell toys, etc. they can fuck up a good story

you bring dragon age inquisition, a franchise that has already attracted some flak with the 2nd installment of the series, but i bring up Persona 4, a game with a cast that includes a transvestite woman and a bi/gay man, and the whole cast of characters of the game is almost universally acclaimed. i personally loved the way they handled kangi... well, for the most part

I've spoken of that one elsewhere before; I haven't played the game, but read that Kanji's "realisation" is not about his sexuality; he says that doesn't matter, and the only romantic attraction his real self displays is for a woman.

I'm certainly not saying this isn't a good portrayal; I'm certainly not saying it doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's not quite the same thing.

My point is, I'm still looking for a good long while before I find a game with a written protagonist that represents me. Of course, I don't need a protagonist to represent me, but it starts to feel alienating when people repeatedly tell me how little it matters, how unimportant my wish is... when they get to experience precisely what I'm missing out on.

thats a fair point, but even then, personally i think the outer appeareance of the characters shouldnt really make them worse characters

yoko from gurren lagann for instance, boy, almost every shot of her puts emphasis on her body, and she is well, pretty damn sexy, but she is still one of the best and better developed character of the series

Indeed. I'm not focusing on outward appearances; I'm more concerned with the journeys the characters take, their characterisation, development, and interactions.

the problem is that the voices pro-sjw are tyring to control the narrative in many major gaming websites at the moment

- gamers are being called terrorists, literally, we are being compared to people that kill, bomb and behead innocents
- gamers are beign told they are dead
- white straight male games keep being vilified, im not even white and i hate this crap because i have white friends on the internet and i know many white people i respect on the internet, i come from a country where theres basically no racism, for me, degrading someone for being white is not different from degrading someone for being black
- many gaming sites refuse to give equal treatment to both men and women, a man can get his name dragged in the mud, his career destroyed, and yeah people like you know who arent even touched, their stories published as fact with nothing but their word for it
- gaming being rated lower for their artistic decisions or character designs, even if the person behind those characters design is also a woman

the escapist is what all gaming websites should look up as example of how gaming journalism is done, ever since the change of policies, have you seen the escapist cover one site mroe than the other?


as for minorities, well, personally as a non-white im more annoyed by those SJWs that try to speak for me than by anybody else... errm, not talking about you of course, but, nobody asked me if i was offended by white characters, and now these people say i am

Comparisons of gamers with terrorists and such are, of course, just patently absurd. Completely ridiculous. That said, I've seen the same kind of stuff said of "SJW"s.

As for white straight males being vilified... this is again something I've seen the reaction to, much more than I've seen the phenomenon itself.

A disclaimer is warranted, of course, that nobody should claim to speak for you, or speak over you. That's not cool. I'm not part of any movement on this issue, but I'll take the time to distance myself from any and all shitty behaviour.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Criticising a style is perfectly valid-- I would consider that a legitimate criticism, if you explained it well in the review.

ok i cant agree with you there

Still, prejudice and stereotyping are a little more insidious than just using a style one doesn't care for.

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

I've spoken of that one elsewhere before; I haven't played the game, but read that Kanji's "realisation" is not about his sexuality; he says that doesn't matter, and the only romantic attraction his real self displays is for a woman.

I'm certainly not saying this isn't a good portrayal; I'm certainly not saying it doesn't matter. I'm just saying it's not quite the same thing.

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

My point is, I'm still looking for a good long while before I find a game with a written protagonist that represents me. Of course, I don't need a protagonist to represent me, but it starts to feel alienating when people repeatedly tell me how little it matters, how unimportant my wish is... when they get to experience precisely what I'm missing out on.

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Indeed. I'm not focusing on outward appearances; I'm more concerned with the journeys the characters take, their characterisation, development, and interactions.

indeed my brother of soul

Comparisons of gamers with terrorists and such are, of course, just patently absurd. Completely ridiculous. That said, I've seen the same kind of stuff said of "SJW"s.

As for white straight males being vilified... this is again something I've seen the reaction to, much more than I've seen the phenomenon itself.

A disclaimer is warranted, of course, that nobody should claim to speak for you, or speak over you. That's not cool. I'm not part of any movement on this issue, but I'll take the time to distance myself from any and all shitty behaviour.

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

 

[Silvanus]

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

Indeed. Critics should praise some aspects, and criticise others; I wouldn't consider it complex criticism if they didn't. Either way, though, even if style is off-limits, content must be perfectly fair game if the medium wishes to tell a story.

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

I read about that. Maybe I do need to play it to understand. It just seemed that his realisation had more to do with others' perceptions of him than his own sexuality [http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120825212659/megamitensei/images/thumb/f/f2/On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.jpg/250px-On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.webp], and it is notable that his only real-world attraction is straight. You must admit, that seems far from clear-cut.

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Some people do (you've shown yourself to be respectful yourself, as have others I've started out arguing with), it's true.

Those that disagree aren't hateful (usually); they just tend to be dismissive, or to lose sight of the fact that straight people get to experience media that represents and reinforces their relationships all the time. Don't mind me, now, I'm just sounding off.

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

I'm glad to hear it. Hell, maybe if the bad blood cools down, I'll get to build a different image of the movement.

As it is, when I hear that dreaded three-letter abbreviation, it feels to me that the person who uttered it is likely to have some misplaced anger-- and that diversity in gaming is likely to be lose out if that's the image that journalists and developers get of their playerbase.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

PERCEIVED prejudice, something that might not even exist, there could me misunderstandings, like i showed you even the sorceress can be seen as an enpowering character or an objectifying one

and again, that didnt stop critics from praising a birth of a nation

Indeed. Critics should praise some aspects, and criticise others; I wouldn't consider it complex criticism if they didn't. Either way, though, even if style is off-limits, content must be perfectly fair game if the medium wishes to tell a story.

i can perfectly understand a comment, something like "the artstyle/character designs might be off-putting for some people" i think thats a perfectly fine comment that lets the reader know about what to expect from the game, but to argue the game is worse because of that? no, i dont think its fair to the creator or the creation

you need to play the game, kanji thought this woman was a man, and his personal journey actually involves accepting the posibility he could be gay/bi, and the story handles this well, within the game, theres this "midnight channel" a realm in which a person's biggest fears or conflicts materialize as a dungeon, kanji's dungeon is a sauna in wihch the monsters are a bunch of muscular men, his inner self, when rejected by kanji also turns into a homoerotic monster

I read about that. Maybe I do need to play it to understand. It just seemed that his realisation had more to do with others' perceptions of him than his own sexuality [http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120825212659/megamitensei/images/thumb/f/f2/On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.jpg/250px-On_the_question_of_Kanji%27s_sexuality.webp], and it is notable that his only real-world attraction is straight. You must admit, that seems far from clear-cut.

i highly recommend it, regardless of the story arcs of kanji and naoto the game is simply fun, one of my favorites

i did say "for the most part" it does have an air of the devs chickening out at the last moment when it comes to kanji's story, and it might undermine somewhat his struggle, but still, he had no idea naoto was a woman at the time, and if you hear his dialogue, its clear naoto was just the straw that broke the camel's back, he had those doubts about himself for a long time

is not unimportant bro, and you must make your sentiment be known, in a respectful way, im sure people will take into consideration your feelings

then again, i guess i never really cared too much in projecting myself into the character, ive played as whites, blacks, women, anthropomorphic animals, etc

Some people do (you've shown yourself to be respectful yourself, as have others I've started out arguing with), it's true.

Those that disagree aren't hateful (usually); they just tend to be dismissive, or to lose sight of the fact that straight people get to experience media that represents and reinforces their relationships all the time. Don't mind me, now, I'm just sounding off.

if it makes you feel better, i do feel gaming is getting more and more able to handle those kind of stories, look at the last of us' DLC, its just a shame some people tried to ride the horse of "social justice" for their own gains, it might hurt the legitimacy of devs that want to make these kind of games for a while, at the cathedral of misogyny there are quite a few paranoids already, i try to calm them the fuck down when i can, just because a game has a minority doesnt mean its SJW, i mean fuck are you going to tell me Just Cause 2 advocates social justice? i dont think the game has time for that, its too busy being a fun game

i dont know, ive been to the cathedral of misogyny itself, theres very few people accusing everyone advocating for diversity of nazis and/or terrorists, in fact, in every discussion about it, without fail, every time some idiot trying to stir shit up says stuff like "dont trust gays/trans" etc, he gets shot down, people insult him and mock him

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay, Fredrick Brennan "hotwheels" the owners of 8chan, is handicapped and has a severe birth defect, people love him, Christina H. Sommers a moderate feminist, 8chan has come to affectionately refer to her as "based mom", and the whole #notyourshield thing

there might be hateful people there, i dont doubt it, but for the most part, its just folks who want better journalism, who believe they deserve better journalism

they also like the escapist, and the site is not explicitly pro-gamergate, it simply covers it and allows free discussion of the topic

also considering all the "husbando" and "trap" threads, i struggle to believe there isnt a considerable amount of gays and bis there, and of course people from all races and some women as well

I'm glad to hear it. Hell, maybe if the bad blood cools down, I'll get to build a different image of the movement.

As it is, when I hear that dreaded three-letter abbreviation, it feels to me that the person who uttered it is likely to have some misplaced anger-- and that diversity in gaming is likely to be lose out if that's the image that journalists and developers get of their playerbase.

i wont deny people often direct that word to the wrong groups, i already had a discussion with another fella here about that, hes also into the whole diversity thing, i agreed with him that there are fanatics and idiots on both sides and the term SJW can end up targeting the wrong people

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

Well, a shield's better than a sword. It's good to hear the story of someone who made up their own mind after being swept up in this frenzy.

Because an SJW can be a man.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

. SJW comes from men's rights activists

where do you get your information, because it sounds like it comes from "the sun". Really where the hek did you read that SJW come from men's rights activists? And where did you find slut shaming at #gamergate?

This is a joke, right?

The first usage of Social Justice Warrior seems to be taken from Fuck No Tumblr Social Justice (later amended to Fuck No Tumblr SJW), a parody of Tumblr's "Fuck Yeah" aggregator pages, ironically hosted ON TUMBLR. Their first post is about how the asexual community should shut up and it devolves from there. It was closely followed by the style-identical Shit Social Justice Allies Say, which has since vanished but is reposted suspiciously heavily on Misandry-The Hatred of Men, an anti social justice tumblr page purportedly written by a lady with lots of edgy stuff to say about ladies. YOUR WORDS ARE NOT NEW.

As for no slut-shaming in gamergate, I guess just asking you to read a few pages of it is too much?

You missed the part where you showed that those people are MRAs.

And u have no sources

 

[Dragonmouth]

I know I do this alot, I know this is my thing and I should probably talk about something like how cool that heavy bullets game is.( Ill start a thread on that later) But I feel that this womans words are worth hearing. People need to know what kinds of change are positive for them and for everyone around and what changes are not. Here she describes in detail what changes are not good for gamers and I think that once the majority of us understand this we can overcome and do something to make gaming more inclusive and not just guilt ridden and angry.

Im sorry mario your vast social change is in another castle.

The article here:http://mindlesszombiestudios.com/content/gamergate-you-can-call-me-shield

Some quotes from the article.

"This is how SJW's work. They make you fear yourself, your impact on the world and force you to hate what you are. Then when you are quiet and trying to figure out how to interact with the world they speak for you, and you, scared, tired and hating yourself latch on to what they tell you to say. I fell for it."

"Gaming saved me from killing myself during that time and in short order I left the SJW websites and stuck to gaming and activism through local gaming means. Through gaming and friends I met there I began calling myself a liberal moderate and protested for causes I believed in rather than writing blog posts about it."

Soooooooooooooo guys I know its tiring buttttttttt what do you think?

It seems like this person had mental or emotional problems beyond what "SJWs" wrote about some video games and scapegoated them for criticizing something she enjoyed. I'm glad that she found solace in gaming but any art form, including video games, will be criticized and if that criticism made her uncomfortable, she should have just ignored it.

 

[Dragonmouth]

I think the entire SJW label is taking crap way too far. It's pointless. If you're sick of people making arguments about things that they believe in then get off the goddamn forums. Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down.

hey, these people can talk about diversity the entire day, i dont mind, as long as they dont insult, shame or harass devs and gamers

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them, and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

Yet insulting, harassing, and shaming devs is what "anti-SJWs" do all the time.

 

[Terminal Blue]

heres a little analysis someone made about dragon crown's soceress which actually left me impressed, the design is not mere fan service, is actually a very original and deliberate despiction of a necromancer in a fantasy setting, one could even argue is EMPOWERING to women

Spoiler

That impressed you?

Fucking hell man..

Never, ever, ever talk about unbaised reporting or "narratives" ever again, because obviously you only have a problem with narratives when they don't serve your interests, and that's completely fine. Go ahead, use narratives however you want. You can have stupid opinions. You can use bad mythpoetic content analysis to try and justify your desire to play games one handed. You can even interpret questionable archaeological evidence to fit whatever story you want. If you think that's a really important thing to help you understand or appreciate a product, then go ahead.

But stop trying to prevent other people from doing the same because they happen to disagree with you. That is censorship.

Milo Yiannopoulos is almost workshipped by these people, and hes gay

That's true.

He's also a hypocrite who argued that gay people shouldn't be able to get married or be equal in law (winning Stonewall's "homophobe of the year" award by doing so, against some very stiff competition) then got quietly engaged to his partner when people with more vision than himself won that argument.

I have great respect for those people who attempt to reconcile their faith and sexuality, doing so is often one of the bravest things a person can do. What I don't respect is people who cynically pander to bigotry in hopes of sparing themselves its worst excesses.

 

[Schadrach]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

Simple. Because A GIRL agrees with us.

This has been pretty SOP for a while now.

More because it pre-resolves the first counter argument that doesn't actually address what's said, that being "you are a cishet white male, and thus are wrong." Usually the follow up is "you are lying about being a woman." That's actually the reason that GWW and Typhonblue started using their real names online and started doing YouTube videos instead of just blog posts.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

I think the entire SJW label is taking crap way too far. It's pointless. If you're sick of people making arguments about things that they believe in then get off the goddamn forums. Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down.

hey, these people can talk about diversity the entire day, i dont mind, as long as they dont insult, shame or harass devs and gamers

if they can keep their agendas out of gaming, i personally wont have a problem with them, and if they want more inclusive games, just make em, noone is stopping them

Yet insulting, harassing, and shaming devs is what "anti-SJWs" do all the time.

oh really? go to 8chan and try to organize a raid or a harassment attack towards SJW, prepare to ridiculed and mocked

i dare you do it, 8chan is an anonymous board, it takes nothing to post there, do it and show us the results

on the other hand, the people from gamergate have been compared to ISIS, repeatedly, people from GG have been doxxed and hacked, the escapist itself was DOSS'd by people who allegedly oppose GG

there are assholes on both sides, but the people with the megaphone should be more responsible than the lowly forum poster, they are communicators

that being said, if legitimate, i do oppose any harassment directed at SJWs, because you cant win a debate acting like that

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

That impressed you?

Fucking hell man..

Never, ever, ever talk about unbaised reporting or "narratives" ever again, because obviously you only have a problem with narratives when they don't serve your interests, and that's completely fine. Go ahead, use narratives however you want. You can have stupid opinions. You can use bad mythpoetic content analysis to try and justify your desire to play games one handed. You can even interpret questionable archaeological evidence to fit whatever story you want. If you think that's a really important thing to help you understand or appreciate a product, then go ahead.

But stop trying to prevent other people from doing the same because they happen to disagree with you. That is censorship.

so debate is now censorship?

who wouldve thought theres more than 1 way top look at well endowed women? no its always misogyny, its always nerds trying to fap to them

how about you stop and listen to the argument of the other side for a while

theres a BIG difference between saying "you know, this character design can be interpreted in different ways" and "gamers are DEAD"

also i hope you condemn the actual censorship other gaming sites have around gamergate

That's true.

He's also a hypocrite who argued that gay people shouldn't be able to get married or be equal in law (winning Stonewall's "homophobe of the year" award by doing so, against some very stiff competition) then got quietly engaged to his partner when people with more vision than himself won that argument.

I have great respect for those people who attempt to reconcile their faith and sexuality, doing so is often one of the bravest things a person can do. What I don't respect is people who cynically pander to bigotry in hopes of sparing themselves its worst excesses.

oh, so that makes him less gay?

does defending gamer gate make Christina H. Sommers less of a woman?

does owning 8chan make Fredrick Brennan less handicapped?

does not caring about the race of characters in video games make me less latino?

or is diversity only valid when this diverse people share the same opinions as you

 

[Terminal Blue]

so debate is now censorship?

No, I don't think it is, I'm just fucking with you.

Debate is not censorship. Criticizing a game is not censoring a game. Criticizing a review is not censoring a review. We are lucky enough to live in a world of free and open criticism and free and open response to criticism. That's not a world I want to get rid of, if anything I think we should expand the capacity for criticism..

theres a BIG difference between saying "you know, this character design can be interpreted in different ways" and "gamers are DEAD"

Umm.. No there isn't.

Gamers aren't literally dead. Kotaku haven't deployed some subliminal psychic triggers into Steam's code which makes people's heads explode when they load up a game. "Gamers are dead" is a convenient click bait headline for a bunch of articles about diversity in gaming, which is an interpretive issue, one which is subject to opinion, and opinion is free.

also i hope you condemn the actual censorship other gaming sites have around gamergate

Depends if it's actually censorship or not.

People have the wrong idea about free speech sometimes, they assume that having [free speech means being entitled to a platform. Being denied a platform, having your TV show taken off the air, having your article pulled or even losing your job in journalism is not necessarily "censorship" because these are not part of the right to free expression. I can't march up to a television company and demand to have my own show, because they won't give me one. To use your favourite train of logic, that's the business, and if you don't like it you can go and set up your own media company.

Journalists being fired or blacklisted for expressing their opinions is a grey area. On one hand, unless they're actually in breach of a preexisting policy it does seem arbitrary and unnecessary. On the other hand, your employer generally has the right to take disciplinary measures when you do something embarrasses them or reflects badly on them, because they're giving you money not to do that. I don't see enormous evidence of some great conspiracy in these things, what I see is a bunch of media companies trying to control their image. That's not really abnormal or suspicious, although the fact that it appears as such probably means they aren't doing a good job.

So which is it. Do you think gamergate is being censored, or do you think gamergate is simply being denied a platform?

oh, so that makes him less gay?

No. But what does that even mean?

Is this the online equivalent of "I'm not homophobic, I have a gay friend!"

Gay people are perfectly capable of pandering to homophobes, because sometimes, shockingly, it's advantageous to do so. Gay people are also capable of being utter hypocrites who make a career out of reassuring their homophobic chums that gay people don't really want to get married so it's okay to think that they shouldn't, and then secretly getting married..

Kind of like women are capable of calling themselves feminists despite having absolutely zero feminist literacy so that the conservative family-values lobby with whom they're affiliated can claim that they're not anti-feminist.

If those gay people are your "gay friends", if those feminists are your "moderate feminists", it's not particularly solid evidence of anything.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

so debate is now censorship?

No, I don't think it is, I'm just fucking with you.

Debate is not censorship. Criticizing a game is not censoring a game. Criticizing a review is not censoring a review. We are lucky enough to live in a world of free and open criticism and free and open response to criticism. That's not a world I want to get rid of, if anything I think we should expand the capacity for criticism..

theres is such thing as non-useful criticism, and accusing a game of "misogyny" because of the character designs is such thing, because it simply does not diminishes the quality of the game, as a game

a deck of poker with sexy pictures of ladies is STILL a perfectly functional deck of poker

dualshockers jsut publsihed an article about this, is a decent read

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/10/14/bayonetta-2s-over-sexualization-complaint-a-perfect-example-of-whats-wrong-with-modern-reviews/

theres a BIG difference between saying "you know, this character design can be interpreted in different ways" and "gamers are DEAD"

Umm.. No there isn't.

Gamers aren't literally dead. Kotaku haven't deployed some subliminal psychic triggers into Steam's code which makes people's heads explode when they load up a game. "Gamers are dead" is a convenient click bait headline for a bunch of articles about diversity in gaming, which is an interpretive issue, one which is subject to opinion, and opinion is free.

slander is the exact same thing as one defending a piece of work

are, you, serious?

hell you are defending clickbait as well, i dont think you care much about the quality of the content gaming sites publish

also i hope you condemn the actual censorship other gaming sites have around gamergate

Depends if it's actually censorship or not.

People have the wrong idea about free speech sometimes, they assume that having [free speech means being entitled to a platform. Being denied a platform, having your TV show taken off the air, having your article pulled or even losing your job in journalism is not necessarily "censorship" because these are not part of the right to free expression. I can't march up to a television company and demand to have my own show, because they won't give me one. To use your favourite train of logic, that's the business, and if you don't like it you can go and set up your own media company.

Journalists being fired or blacklisted for expressing their opinions is a grey area. On one hand, unless they're actually in breach of a preexisting policy it does seem arbitrary and unnecessary. On the other hand, your employer generally has the right to take disciplinary measures when you do something embarrasses them or reflects badly on them, because they're giving you money not to do that. I don't see enormous evidence of some great conspiracy in these things, what I see is a bunch of media companies trying to control their image. That's not really abnormal or suspicious, although the fact that it appears as such probably means they aren't doing a good job.

So which is it. Do you think gamergate is being censored, or do you think gamergate is simply being denied a platform?

so harassing devs, calling internet providers to shut down sites, doxxing, hacking, blacklisting, are all not censorship?

i think we need to check that definition again

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship

"Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information which may be considered objectionable, harmful, sensitive, politically incorrect or inconvenient as determined by governments, media outlets, authorities or other such entities."

how is this campaign to refuse to cover gamergate, banning for discussing gamergate, doxxing, hacking and using influences to shut down discussions of gamergate not censorship? it is clear gaming websites dont want to address or recognize this information, it is the definition of censorship, or are you going to say a movement questioning the integritic of gaming journalist is not harmful to corrupt game journalists?

just because "is in the rules" doesnt mean its not censorship

oh, so that makes him less gay?

No. But what does that even mean?

Is this the online equivalent of "I'm not homophobic, I have a gay friend!"

Gay people are perfectly capable of pandering to homophobes, because sometimes, shockingly, it's advantageous to do so. Gay people are also capable of being utter hypocrites who make a career out of reassuring their homophobic chums that gay people don't really want to get married so it's okay to think that they shouldn't, and then secretly getting married..

Kind of like women are capable of calling themselves feminists despite having absolutely zero feminist literacy so that the conservative family-values lobby with whom they're affiliated can claim that they're not anti-feminist.

If those gay people are your "gay friends", if those feminists are your "moderate feminists", it's not particularly solid evidence of anything.

so women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement, are not evidence of women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement?

are you really going to argue gamergate is "a bunch of white straight males" like so many others have, when the evidence is right there in front of you, in the form of diverse speakers for the movement, in the form of smaller movements supporting gamergate, such as #notyourshield

at this point to argue gamergate is nothing but a bunch of white straight males, is racist, sexist and... i dont know, heterophobic? the evidence is overwhelming and it simply cannot be denied, it has been one of the biggest hits to the anti-gamergate movement, because it completely destroys their narrative, they have become the great defenders of minorities... that are attacking minorities

 

[Terminal Blue]

theres is such thing as non-useful criticism, and accusing a game of "misogyny" because of the character designs is such thing, because it simply does not diminishes the quality of the game, as a game

Right, so basically, you and a small minority of angry internet activists get to decide for the entire world what constitutes "useful" and "non-useful" criticism irrespective of whether it actually is useful to anyone else or not.

Isn't that exactly what you accuse the "other side" of doing?

dualshockers jsut publsihed an article about this, is a decent read

That's not "balanced reporting", that's hollow narrative which you happen to agree with.

It's not a decent read, either. It's tedious, emotionally charged polemics designed to pander to the fragile egos of fans. But of course, you've decided it's "useful", so yay I guess! All hail the future of garme jurnalizm. I look forward to my approved diet of intellectually cowardly, self-congratulatory bullshit specially approved for us all by you and your chums.

But hey, thanks for saving us all from those nasty SJWs.

slander is the exact same thing as one defending a piece of work

Slander requires that a person is being denigrated. "Gamers" isn't a person. Slander also requires that the allegation being made is demonstrably untrue.

You might be looking for the word "hatespeech", but even then I don't think anything in those articles remotely meets the criteria of hatespeech even in the broadest (i.e. not actually enforcable in law anywhere in the world) sense of the term.

hell you are defending clickbait as well, i dont think you care much about the quality of the content gaming sites publish

No. I clearly don't, at least not in the sense that you do.

Eye catching headlines have been a part of journalism for a long time. Clickbait is simply the more sophisticated online iteration of that. It doesn't really need defending, it's just how journalism works and in that sense it's nothing new.

I think relying on clickbaiting to compensate for a lack of quality content is unlikely to be a successful long term strategy. Such an approach seems to me to be based on a probable over-valuation of site traffic as a metric of success, rather than an integrated approach which positions site traffic in the context of things like engagement rate.

But clickbait certainly has its place, particularly when we're talking about entertainment media which is, at the end of the day, what all gaming media is.

or are you going to say a movement questioning the integritic of gaming journalist is not harmful to corrupt game journalists?

Well, you seem to very much only be questioning the integrity of some game journalists. So I wouldn't go that far.

The problem with the wikipedia definition of censorship, by the way, is that form of censorship it describes is not necessarily in any way illegal or even considered remotely immoral. It is part of everyday, normal interaction. I am censoring at this moment, because it's something we all do out of consideration for rules of social decorum or to cater to other people or as a price for preserving our access to a platform. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I presume when you talk about censorship of gamergate you're implying there is censorship which in some way violates a person's legal or moral (however you contextualize moral) right to expression, and that's what I'm not sure about.

just because "is in the rules" doesnt mean its not censorship

Just because it's censorship doesn't mean it's bad.

Generally, "the rules" are what we rely on to tell us when censorship is bad.

so women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement, are not evidence of women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement?

If that's all you care about, then yeah, I guess so.

I just don't see how that's a particularly great moral victory.

And I find the implicit claim that it is to be a bit patronizing.

 

[Something Amyss]

Wait...why is it "sjw woman" and not just "sjw"?

Simple. Because A GIRL agrees with us.

This has been pretty SOP for a while now.

More because it pre-resolves the first counter argument that doesn't actually address what's said, that being "you are a cishet white male, and thus are wrong." Usually the follow up is "you are lying about being a woman." That's actually the reason that GWW and Typhonblue started using their real names online and started doing YouTube videos instead of just blog posts.

That's preemptively knocking down a strawman.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

theres is such thing as non-useful criticism, and accusing a game of "misogyny" because of the character designs is such thing, because it simply does not diminishes the quality of the game, as a game

Right, so basically, you and a small minority of angry internet activists get to decide for the entire world what constitutes "useful" and "non-useful" criticism irrespective of whether it actually is useful to anyone else or not.

Isn't that exactly what you accuse the "other side" of doing?

ill use another example because you dotn seem to understand

if i have a chess set in which all the pieces are sexy women, does that make chess a worse game? does that make that set worse at chess than other sets? would the same apply if the pieces were instead sexy men?

we critize the other size of shaming and harassing devs for their artistic decisions, of corruption, of trying to bring politics into gaming, of ignoring minorities who are not offended by the current state of gaming

dualshockers jsut publsihed an article about this, is a decent read

That's not "balanced reporting", that's hollow narrative which you happen to agree with.

It's not a decent read, either. It's tedious, emotionally charged polemics designed to pander to the fragile egos of fans. But of course, you've decided it's "useful", so yay I guess! All hail the future of garme jurnalizm. I look forward to my approved diet of intellectually cowardly, self-congratulatory bullshit specially approved for us all by you and your chums.

But hey, thanks for saving us all from those nasty SJWs.

why are you here then? this nasty site that met gamergate demands, if you only want to hear YOUR side of the story, just go to all the other sides that refuse to let the gamergate side be heard

slander is the exact same thing as one defending a piece of work

Slander requires that a person is being denigrated. "Gamers" isn't a person. Slander also requires that the allegation being made is demonstrably untrue.

You might be looking for the word "hatespeech", but even then I don't think anything in those articles remotely meets the criteria of hatespeech even in the broadest (i.e. not actually enforcable in law anywhere in the world) sense of the term.

noun
1.
defamation; calumny:
rumors full of slander.
2.
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report:
a slander against his good name.
3.
Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander

hell you are defending clickbait as well, i dont think you care much about the quality of the content gaming sites publish

No. I clearly don't, at least not in the sense that you do.

Eye catching headlines have been a part of journalism for a long time. Clickbait is simply the more sophisticated online iteration of that. It doesn't really need defending, it's just how journalism works and in that sense it's nothing new.

I think relying on clickbaiting to compensate for a lack of quality content is unlikely to be a successful long term strategy. Such an approach seems to me to be based on a probable over-valuation of site traffic as a metric of success, rather than an integrated approach which positions site traffic in the context of things like engagement rate.

But clickbait certainly has its place, particularly when we're talking about entertainment media which is, at the end of the day, what all gaming media is.

so just because it always has been like that, it has to be like that? i think not

or are you going to say a movement questioning the integritic of gaming journalist is not harmful to corrupt game journalists?

Well, you seem to very much only be questioning the integrity of some game journalists. So I wouldn't go that far.

The problem with the wikipedia definition of censorship, by the way, is that form of censorship it describes is not necessarily in any way illegal or even considered remotely immoral. It is part of everyday, normal interaction. I am censoring at this moment, because it's something we all do out of consideration for rules of social decorum or to cater to other people or as a price for preserving our access to a platform. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I presume when you talk about censorship of gamergate you're implying there is censorship which in some way violates a person's legal or moral (however you contextualize moral) right to expression, and that's what I'm not sure about.

im sorry are you saying that doxxing, hacking and using your influences to blacklist people is "part of everyday, normal interaction"?

just because "is in the rules" doesnt mean its not censorship

Just because it's censorship doesn't mean it's bad.

Generally, "the rules" are what we rely on to tell us when censorship is bad.

and you expect to have a proper discussion when an entire side is being completely ignored, clearly the espacist is not a good site for you, here both sides are allowed to be heard and discuss

so women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement, are not evidence of women, gays and hadicapped in the gamergate movement?

If that's all you care about, then yeah, I guess so.

I just don't see how that's a particularly great moral victory.

And I find the implicit claim that it is to be a bit patronizing.

when we are accused left and right of being white straight males (as if that was a bad thing somehow), the ability to irrefutably prove them wrong is a great victory, is the one things that has been hurting anti-gg the most, they have no power to shame us based on our race, gender or sexual orientation

i for one dont find it patronizing, and as a non-white im proud to be part of this movement

 

[Terminal Blue]

if i have a chess set in which all the pieces are sexy women, does that make chess a worse game? does that make that set worse at chess than other sets? would the same apply if the pieces were instead sexy men?

Not intrinsically, but it could do.

I mean, I would consider that chess set to be pandering, tacky, and adding nothing to the actual game, and thus I think it would be quite important for me to know if I was in the market for buying a chess set whether I was going to be embarrassed trying to play with it.

And define "sexy men", because that's actually quite a difficult concept to pin down. If we're talking Chippendales, then yes, for much the same reason.

why are you here then? this nasty site that met gamergate demands, if you only want to hear YOUR side of the story, just go to all the other sides that refuse to let the gamergate side be heard

I don't really care if this site gives you a platform or not. That's their right, just as it's the right of other sites to take away said platform. If you don't like it, set up your own forum, blog or news site.

You can say whatever you want, and if anyone is willing to listen to you that's their stupid fault. My only investment here is pointing out that you're being a massive hypocrite and trying to force other people's media consumption to conform to your minority political agenda.

noun
1.
defamation; calumny:
rumors full of slander.
2.
a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report:
a slander against his good name.
3.
Law. defamation by oral utterance rather than by writing, pictures, etc.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slander

Defamation
noun
1.
the act of defaming; false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another [person], as by slander or libel; calumny:
She sued the magazine for defamation of character.

so just because it always has been like that, it has to be like that? i think not

I could say exactly the same thing about the game industry.

im sorry are you saying that doxxing, hacking and using your influences to blacklist people is "part of everyday, normal interaction"?

Of those three things, only one is even arguably related to "censorship", and it's legal.

and you expect to have a proper discussion when an entire side is being completely ignored

Well, why don't you set up your own site and discuss it there?

I mean, if game developers don't have to respond to discussions about sexism, why do journalists have to respond to whatever issues you want to discuss? If you think you can provide a better service, maybe you should go and do that.

when we are accused left and right of being white straight males (as if that was a bad thing somehow), the ability to irrefutably prove them wrong is a great victory, is the one things that has been hurting anti-gg the most, they have no power to shame us based on our race, gender or sexual orientation

Right, but that doesn't change the fact that two of the people you've mentioned have a particular history of pandering or setting themselves up as "native informants" to groups with right-wing, conservative Christian and/or anti-equality agendas.

Having those people on side isn't a great achievement, and it certainly doesn't demonstrate any particular progressive credentials.