An Olive Branch in Gaming's Culture War

[gargantual]

I know this guy might not have the best reputation among some of ya'll starting with his Tropes response videos,



but I like the suggestion in this vid of a coming together, or a little compromise of group self policing the worst posters in comments thread and in the blogosphere and i'll add to that.

I'd like to see some more agreeing to disagree regarding real world social interactions online at convos and with design choice issues in gaming. We go on for threads to get to that compromise without trying to understand each other first. Or express our ambivalence reasonably.

I'm almost more exhausted by this than Obama v Romney. Because how many of us got to express reason, moderation and understanding in between these culture wars? We wait for each other to be the bigger person, or are we waiting for the other to bow down and concede their ideas in shame. That ain't happening. We're humans. We are stubborn-ass mammals and we know it.

Some of us guys are still gonna be fueled by 80's action theme, and mythical badass fantasy with all its suggested pros and cons in the future of gaming, and others want a platform for more real-world representation and some visible social meme-change. Both ideals in geek culture have their market, and aren't going to vanish into oblivion.

But we need to come together in our arguments and understand what each other likes in their ideal of game so we stop painting each other as the enemy and are a little less toxic online not because of Big Brother watching (which it shouldnt have come to) but because we're aware.

because the AAA investors, and clueless marketers coming from push mountain dew, skate accessories and youth culture traps on us that run AAA gaming could really give a shit.

This is supposed to be our destresser for the worlds bullshit, and AAA games is piecemealing and surcharging our pasttime, while others getting into gaming aren't aware of whats going on. I mean look at the audiences that genre films draw. We know we're different.

So I say click and add you input to mundanematt's comments stream in a reasonable fashion please if you feel so inclined, and if you want to demonstrate what diluting this 'geek culture war' looks like.

 

[Zontar]

I'm honestly sick of this war. As an active member of the atheist and video game community, this was a double whammy for me since right around the time the civil war in the atheist community died down with the SJW generally calming down, it intensified in the video game community with Tropes vs Women starting the whole thing with gaming, and with the same negative results (harming the community, causing needless conflict, showing who cared about facts and who cared about popularity, and all caused by a professional victim who do more harm to their own stated goals then those who genuinely are against equality ever could).

This whole thing is why I've regressed from both communities at large and lost respect for a lot of people (I won't name names, but some contributors to this site have this apply). Now whenever someone brings it up, all I can think about is "this is gaming, a place where we disconnect ourselves from the shit that is reality. Complain to someone else about a problem that in 90% of cases either doesn't even exist or is massively overstated for how much of a problem it really is".

 

[Xenedus]

Seems like the video creator is really channelling his inner Rush Limbaugh during that video. Just the way he was talking throughout the video and the way he emphasized certain parts of certain words and put pauses after other statements was very similar to Rush's way of talking.

Biggest problem(s) with this whole issue: The gaming industry really doesn't give a shit about the issue. They care about their sales and these concerns are going to make no difference unless it is relevant to their sales. The (mainstream) gaming industry is not going to do ANYTHING for women until women make up a bigger percentage of their revenue stream.

Problem #2: Spawning more internet arguments with idiots isn't going to solve anything. "Calling someone out" on the internet as a form of policing or moderating simply does not work.

Problem #3: This is bigger than just an issue of gaming. It's not like society is perfectly divided 50/50 between man and woman in every area. Gaming is just one of those things that are are marketed much more towards men because that's their primary audience. You don't see me busting Barbie's balls because they aren't trying to market to me. Pretending like gaming is somehow unique in this is disingenuous.

Solution?: Ignore it. Gaming is relatively young so it's going to take it a while before it gets settled and gaming has already been steadily getting better in this regard. Like any artistic medium there's always going to be people making offensive stuff but over time you'll find more and more gems. There's very little point in screeching and crying about this issue when the conclusion is already foregone and it's only a matter of time.

 

[Zhukov]

Okay, just to be clear, by "Gaming's Culture War" are you and the slightly frothy fellow in the video basically just talking about the Sarkeesian Saga?

 

[gargantual]

Okay, just to be clear, by "Gaming's Culture War" are you and the slightly frothy fellow in the video basically just talking about the Sarkeesian Saga?

It's more than that. Its also involving community forum attacks like Steam over Depression Quest (which I think was really deplorable) The ridiculous 'accusations of Pax East being sexist because the venue owners reduced the amount of female restrooms, or latter comment about the Penny Arcade 'Dickwolves' comic and using 'rape' as a subject in comedy.

There's unnecessary spillover from that, and other social media wars but people are so addicted to fighting, that theres no middleground of what people on either side have to do, to not be judged.

I dont know what to think about Sarkeesian since some are suggesting she's a figurehead of some social scam by activist Johnathan McIntosh

I mean that whole 'your rights end where my feelings begin' is very one-sided. In a medival scenario, An egotistical tyrant could have an innocent citizen beheaded or shot on such a legal premise, and we can't always guage people's hate. Thats why artists are free to put out whatever they feel on the marketplace, and deal with whatever's the fallout.

But this internet radicalization where MRA or Radfem is ridiculous. Controversial material was supposed to dilute our social vitriol, de-sensitize and bring society closer.

This could start to look like gang or sectarian warfare on the internet (forgive me if theres any hyperbole in that statement) . There are real consequences. No rules of engagement, treaties or common understanding, and it's like really. Most of these posters should be old enough to know better, and there's always online deathmatches where a lot of this B.S. can be eaaasssilly settled.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Some of us guys are still gonna be fueled by 80's action theme, and mythical badass fantasy with all its suggested pros and cons in the future of gaming, and others want a platform for more real-world representation and some visible social meme-change. Both ideals in geek culture have their market, and aren't going to vanish into oblivion.

No one, at least outside of the most extreme fringe groups, wants to have an industry that is just one or the other. The problem is that that male-focused 80s badass fantasy has been dominating mainstream gaming for years now, and many people are growing tired of the fact that it has mostly pushed aside better written games and those that actually recognize that men aren't the only ones who may be interested in playing video games. It's not that people want to see the games that follow the current trend disappear completely, but it would be nice to see more mainstream games that aren't simply male power fantasies. While we may be seeing signs of improvement, we're still in the growing pains, and the idea of a strong female protagonist in mainstream games, or even just a well-written mainstream game, is a mostly exotic idea, and that indicates that there is still room to have discussion, give criticism, and grow the industry.

Social Justices morons will recieve nor accept anything less then flat out censorship of anything they don't like.

And again, the idea of people trying to censor something mostly only comes from the extreme fringes. Unless you can somehow provide a law that is trying to get passed that sets artistic standards for how games are allowed to be written, I think it is safe to say that the criticism is really there to tell people where they can improve and to argue as to why they should improve.

In other words, the criticism isn't a sign of desired censorship. It is an attempt to get writers to see where they can improve and to argue as to why they should improve. By implication, that criticism recognizes the importance of writers expressing creative freedom, but it indicates that that creative freedom should be used more appropriately.

Sure, there might be extremists that do want actual censorship, but since when should a group be defined by the few extremists it has?

Problem #3: This is bigger than just an issue of gaming. It's not like society is perfectly divided 50/50 between man and woman in every area. Gaming is just one of those things that are are marketed much more towards men because that's their primary audience. You don't see me busting Barbie's balls because they aren't trying to market to me. Pretending like gaming is somehow unique in this is disingenuous.

That's...sort of the problem. We've created an industry that is meant to appeal to stereotypically male interests as defined by society. Not only does that sort of highlight an issue with society's gender roles--why should these interests by viewed as masculine?--but it also highlights an issue with gaming in that it fully indulges in creating and furthering a culture that panders to those "masculine" interests almost at the complete exclusion of "feminine" interests, at least as far as mainstream games are concerned. Business interests offer no ethical justification for keeping quiet about the issue or attempting to see some positive change come about.

Solution?: Ignore it. Gaming is relatively young so it's going to take it a while before it gets settled and gaming has already been steadily getting better in this regard. Like any artistic medium there's always going to be people making offensive stuff but over time you'll find more and more gems. There's very little point in screeching and crying about this issue when the conclusion is already foregone and it's only a matter of time.

While I agree that gaming will get better, I don't think we should just treat as self-fixing. Since when has ignoring an issue and hoping it fixes itself ever actually fixed the problem?

 

[CloudAtlas]

I applaud your attempt to reaching out, OP, although I don't have high hopes that you'll find many people willing to grasp your olive branch. At least your first two responders didn't.

Now, in the spirit of this thread, OP, I want to ask you, and it's not a rethorical question: How should I engage people who already seem to get angry at the mere notion that yea video games often don't really portray women in such great ways and it would be good if that changes? I mean, if you don't really care yourself, fine, but would it hurt you in any way?
You know, at the end of the day, that is all what most people are complaining about, and what they're asking for: More and better female characters. And I really don't know how am I supposed to engage people who oppose that. Now of course few people say they oppose that, yet for some unfathomable reason always find plenty of reasons (most of them ridiculous) to complain whenever someone brings that up and why all of that is supposedly bad or nonsense or whatever.

I mean that whole 'your rights end where my feelings begin' is very one-sided.

You see, here's already where the problems start: With 'rights'. Because I no one ever said that people don't have the right to publish games with certain content, so whenever someone is defending some developers rights to do something, or the freedom of arts, or is afraid of censorship, he is pretty much fighting against windmills. Yea, they say you should not do certain things, but not that you don't have the right of doing so.
I really don't mean to be rude to you here, but whenever you hear someone invoking any rights, or start talking about censorship, or freedom of arts, or something along those line, you can usually tell where this is going - and a place that has anything to do with reality it is not.

Okay maybe some radical people on some obscure websites do want to ban stuff and censor or whatever. But frankly, I don't know, all I can say I never heard it. And that makes me wonder where all those people defending those rights heard it themselves, unless they deliberately visit such websites or similar places that have like zero influence in the gaming world, or are just repeating what someone else claimed he read or heard somewhere.

And here's also the problem with "calling people out" on this side of the fence: It's not that I wouldn't do it when someone's calling for banning all games with tits or some such nonsense and say nasty things about men or whatever. It's just that I don't know anyone who says such things. And I can't say I've ever seen anyone saying such things. And that should tell you something. My guess is that unless you go out of your way to seek them out, you won't be bothered that much by "social justice warriors", "feminazis" and all those other so fervently hated people.
However, the assholes on the other side of the fence... THEY will seek YOU out. I mean, not me personally, because I'm neither a woman nor important in any way, but others.
Here's where I feel this matt guy, and maybe you, OP, as well, are drawing a bit of a false analogy. The annoying people on the one side, they're mostly at the fringe (and quite a few of them only exist in some people's head, I'd wager). The annoying people on the other side, however, they're right in our middle. And, in contrast to the former, they do real damage, to their victims, to their fellow gamers and the reputation of the gaming community as a whole.

Edit: And I do have to say that when people, as one poster already explitly did in this thread (jpz91 or so), thinks that what some idiot on the extreme radical fringe might have said is representative for anyone who has ever expressed any desire for change with regards to the portrayal of certain groups in games... does that mean they don't mind being lumped together in return with those folks who make rape threats and say and do other disgusting things?

 

[dyre]

While the "games can do no wrong" crowd is just wrong, I don't think the feminist crowd is helping much either. Rallying for feminism in today's gaming industry is akin to rallying for a more realistic portrayal of violence in Power Rangers. It's fucking Power Rangers; the maturity level is too low for that sort of complaint to even be relevant.

We should be working on shaking off the "games are meant to be adolescent escapist fantasy" stereotype first; once there's a market for mature, well-written games, then realistic, mature portrayals of females will occur naturally. As long as EA and Activision and so on sees its consumer base as bunch of teenagers, you're going to keep seeing scantily clad, one dimensional female characters. You don't change the industry by moralizing; you change it by manipulating the rules that the industry works with.

edit: finally got around to watching a few of the feministfrequency videos to see what the fuss is about. I've gotta say it's all rather underwhelming. Sarkisian seems to have a pretty good grasp on feminist theory related to storytelling but the manner in which she presents the issue is, well, boring. Her videos seem to be essentially

1. let me explain some tropes related to women (ok, helpful so far)
2. let me provide some examples of these tropes in random, often obscure games
3. the end

That's about as impressive as premature ejaculation. What she SHOULD have done was taken a pool of female characters from best-selling games over the past ten or twenty years, maybe categorized them by genre, and then analyzed them in the context of the feminist tropes. That would have been a lot useful in terms of determining whether an industry bias against female characters exists. Then she could have made the claim "after methodically analyzing the most popular video games and their portrayal of females, I have come to this conclusion" instead of merely "these tropes exist among some random games, some of which are popular, some of which you've never heard of." No shit they exist...they're tropes, and exist in every form of media. The question should be whether there is an egregious overreliance of those tropes in gaming, and you can't make that claim unless you commit to a pool of data representative of the industry as a whole, not merely the specific examples that prove your point.

 

[gargantual]

Some of us guys are still gonna be fueled by 80's action theme, and mythical badass fantasy with all its suggested pros and cons in the future of gaming, and others want a platform for more real-world representation and some visible social meme-change. Both ideals in geek culture have their market, and aren't going to vanish into oblivion.

No one, at least outside of the most extreme fringe groups, wants to have an industry that is just one or the other. The problem is that that male-focused 80s badass fantasy has been dominating mainstream gaming for years now, and many people are growing tired of the fact that it has mostly pushed aside better written games and those that actually recognize that men aren't the only ones who may be interested in playing video games. It's not that people want to see the games that follow the current trend disappear completely, but it would be nice to see more mainstream games that aren't simply male power fantasies. While we may be seeing signs of improvement, we're still in the growing pains, and the idea of a strong female protagonist in mainstream games, or even just a well-written mainstream game, is a mostly exotic idea, and that indicates that there is still room to have discussion, give criticism, and grow the industry.

Social Justices morons will recieve nor accept anything less then flat out censorship of anything they don't like.

And again, the idea of people trying to censor something mostly only comes from the extreme fringes. Unless you can somehow provide a law that is trying to get passed that sets artistic standards for how games are allowed to be written, I think it is safe to say that the criticism is really there to tell people where they can improve and to argue as to why they should improve.

In other words, the criticism isn't a sign of desired censorship. It is an attempt to get writers to see where they can improve and to argue as to why they should improve. By implication, that criticism recognizes the importance of writers expressing creative freedom, but it indicates that that creative freedom should be used more appropriately.

Sure, there might be extremists that do want actual censorship, but since when should a group be defined by the few extremists it has?

Problem #3: This is bigger than just an issue of gaming. It's not like society is perfectly divided 50/50 between man and woman in every area. Gaming is just one of those things that are are marketed much more towards men because that's their primary audience. You don't see me busting Barbie's balls because they aren't trying to market to me. Pretending like gaming is somehow unique in this is disingenuous.

That's...sort of the problem. We've created an industry that is meant to appeal to stereotypically male interests as defined by society. Not only does that sort of highlight an issue with society's gender roles--why should these interests by viewed as masculine?--but it also highlights an issue with gaming in that it fully indulges in creating and furthering a culture that panders to those "masculine" interests almost at the complete exclusion of "feminine" interests, at least as far as mainstream games are concerned. Business interests offer no ethical justification for keeping quiet about the issue or attempting to see some positive change come about.

Solution?: Ignore it. Gaming is relatively young so it's going to take it a while before it gets settled and gaming has already been steadily getting better in this regard. Like any artistic medium there's always going to be people making offensive stuff but over time you'll find more and more gems. There's very little point in screeching and crying about this issue when the conclusion is already foregone and it's only a matter of time.

While I agree that gaming will get better, I don't think we should just treat as self-fixing. Since when has ignoring an issue and hoping it fixes itself ever actually fixed the problem?

While I see your points with the over saturation (we know that any problems with polarizing themes being shoved in rational gamers face is primarily the fault of aggressive cynical american marketing. We all have core moral beliefs, but in truth our thresholds are different and every customer votes with their pocketbook and curiosity, not necessarily with their moral conscious. I mean look at how we've poorly advertised games. "Sin to Win?" "your mom will hate this game" or The fact that a consultant tried to exploit the Polaris Game Jam into a cheap reality show, and misread diverse game audiences demonstrates that clear as day.

Even though it wasn't a 50/50 split. Like I usually say before in other posts 5th/and 6th gen had quite a few more notable female protagonists and a more diverse catalog when PS2 was atop the market and XBOX was a newbie. So the fact that a gen later, that the market was flooded with the hollywood template of male-action appeal and Halo 'celebrant' sci-fi, without as much catalog diversity or room for modern-relevant stories isn't a surprise. These are people who just buy up properties, hardly the type of people for ' holistic cultural meme change'

American publishers and MS as a console maker had too narrow a marketing scope to begin with. Back in the days space marines were popular on PC only and no one cared as much about design themes except poorly informed media conservatives.

For example, Angry Joe didn't hate the recent Rambo game because it was Rambo, he disliked it because it was shoddily made, buggy, with ripped dialogue from the film, with QTE and ENTIRELY on rails.

And the last part, I don't think we need to overexhaust change. It is self fixing. The only thing is to encourage different demographics to code and program for games and digital art. Indie development has a lot more platforms to connect with avg gamers now, and the main thing freeing games from action stereotypes, is 'failure states' when death isn't the only failure state anymore, then you have room for titles that systemize different types of 'less consequential human activity' Papers Please, Journey (which actually fosters nicer social multiplayer experiences) and Cart Life etc.

As for the status quo in games. Far as I know, people still like to see kitschy, unrealistic sexy, shoot and blow shit up. There might be much contextual variance in what they find sexy or power fantasizing, but those numbers also speak for themselves. Just like how hollywood is over-saturated with superhero films, but if they do well like Cap America Winter Solider and Avengers, and cater to global audiences, then little harm little foul. Id like some more variety too, but more so, I'd just like games to be solid, and less cynical crap entertainment.

I don't think its the case audiences are so exhausted with marginalized depictions that they cant pick up a controller anymore, if CoDMW4, Resident Evil 4, WoW Halo Counter-Strike GTA blew up the market in their time, by seeming to be 'the perfect game' then they rightfully won the crown, and players gravitated as such regardless of each games themes.

What I AM against is the rest of the industry thinking those games are 'the perfect game' and engaging in full on cynical mimickry, instead of taking the opportunity to learn, and make games logically or thematically different or follow their OWN path. If other companies did that and saw opportunities to represent different ideas and cultures better, we wouldn't be talking so much about 'social issues in game design'.

Some of these indie games are going to be the best voice of change. That's why we're here. We play games. They show people the future through their mechanics. Community aggressive SJW will just beat ideas into people's heads they're already socially aware of, and make avg gamers who aren't up on all this cultural war feel like they're stupid or on a watchlist for not professing 'safe' 'highbrow' tastes.

When we play as power fantasies, its out of a well entrenched real-world social awareness, a rumspringa from the mundanites and demands of life, but not as gospel. So we have to understand we're getting older, but the entertainment will be an artifact of its time with only some thematic absolutes. I myself have learned to "appreciate the puppetshow for what it is now that I've seen all its strings".

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

I thought this topic was going to be more about how split up we are as gamers but I can technically see this thread as another Anita/Female gamers, no sexism thread, instead of a small amount of that but more fixation on the PC vs console split that's been going years longer than what's recently surfaced thanks to Anita and SJW's.

 

[The Lunatic]

I think extending an "Olive branch" extends a level of legitimacy to their "Arguments" than is warranted.


Ignore them, ultimately, it's a cry for attention, they'll find something else to complain about for attention sooner or later.

 

[Deshin]

Problem #3: This is bigger than just an issue of gaming. It's not like society is perfectly divided 50/50 between man and woman in every area. Gaming is just one of those things that are are marketed much more towards men because that's their primary audience. You don't see me busting Barbie's balls because they aren't trying to market to me. Pretending like gaming is somehow unique in this is disingenuous.

That's...sort of the problem. We've created an industry that is meant to appeal to stereotypically male interests as defined by society. Not only does that sort of highlight an issue with society's gender roles--why should these interests by viewed as masculine?--but it also highlights an issue with gaming in that it fully indulges in creating and furthering a culture that panders to those "masculine" interests almost at the complete exclusion of "feminine" interests, at least as far as mainstream games are concerned. Business interests offer no ethical justification for keeping quiet about the issue or attempting to see some positive change come about.

When games first came out they didn't appeal to any gender, it just so happens that the biggest early adopters were males. Males in arcades playing games, males buying computers playing games, males buying consoles playing games; yes there were SOME women doing the above but it was a very lopsided ratio. Remember how once upon a time playing games made you a nerd? How it was the de facto social rule that video games were children's toys and if grown men played them there was something wrong with them? Hell this still carries on today with the "neckbeard basement-dweller" stereotype. Now imagine a time when that stereotype applied to *everyone* who played games. Come on now, this shit was happening only a few measly decades ago, why does no one remember or even acknowledge this was a thing? Anyway, as I was saying before, what I was getting at is here's what happened:

Games made -> Women in general not caring about games -> Majority of gamers are men -> Devs make more games their majority playerbase will like -> New generation raging that games don't appeal to them and blaming EVERYONE ELSE (men, devs, pubs, society in general, etc) for it EXCEPT the initial wave of women who didn't give two shits about games in the first place and at worst mocked or belittled people who did care about them.

 

[LetalisK]

I'm honestly sick of this war. As an active member of the atheist and video game community, this was a double whammy for me since right around the time the civil war in the atheist community died down with the SJW generally calming down, it intensified in the video game community with Tropes vs Women starting the whole thing with gaming, and with the same negative results (harming the community, causing needless conflict, showing who cared about facts and who cared about popularity, and all caused by a professional victim who do more harm to their own stated goals then those who genuinely are against equality ever could).

This whole thing is why I've regressed from both communities at large and lost respect for a lot of people (I won't name names, but some contributors to this site have this apply). Now whenever someone brings it up, all I can think about is "this is gaming, a place where we disconnect ourselves from the shit that is reality. Complain to someone else about a problem that in 90% of cases either doesn't even exist or is massively overstated for how much of a problem it really is".

Atheist civil war? What is this and why didn't I know of it? >.>

 

[BreakfastMan]

I'm honestly sick of this war. As an active member of the atheist and video game community, this was a double whammy for me since right around the time the civil war in the atheist community died down with the SJW generally calming down, it intensified in the video game community with Tropes vs Women starting the whole thing with gaming, and with the same negative results (harming the community, causing needless conflict, showing who cared about facts and who cared about popularity, and all caused by a professional victim who do more harm to their own stated goals then those who genuinely are against equality ever could).

This whole thing is why I've regressed from both communities at large and lost respect for a lot of people (I won't name names, but some contributors to this site have this apply). Now whenever someone brings it up, all I can think about is "this is gaming, a place where we disconnect ourselves from the shit that is reality. Complain to someone else about a problem that in 90% of cases either doesn't even exist or is massively overstated for how much of a problem it really is".

Atheist civil war? What is this and why didn't I know of it? >.>

He is probably referring to Elevatorgate and how Atheism+ grew out of that. Can't really think of anything else that would fit that description.

 

[Zontar]

Atheist civil war? What is this and why didn't I know of it? >.>

He is probably referring to Elevatorgate and how Atheism+ grew out of that. Can't really think of anything else that would fit that description.

Pretty much this. It wasn't too bad until people started planning to ruin careers because of a few comments others made. Though things have calmed down for the most part, we're still seeing the aftereffects of the whole mess.

 

[clippen05]

You do realise the vast majority of gamers don't take this as seriously as any of the people on this site? The vast majority of gamers just play games and that's it. Gaming is only a culture for 1% of the people who play games. Few of the people you see in Target or Gamestop buying the latest release even know who Anita Sarkeesian even is, let alone the controversy she's caused. If you really have a problem with the incessant bickering, maybe you need to take a step back and just play some games. Because the arguments will never end, no matter what you say.

 

[CloudAtlas]

We should be working on shaking off the "games are meant to be adolescent escapist fantasy" stereotype first; once there's a market for mature, well-written games, then realistic, mature portrayals of females will occur naturally. As long as EA and Activision and so on sees its consumer base as bunch of teenagers, you're going to keep seeing scantily clad, one dimensional female characters. You don't change the industry by moralizing; you change it by manipulating the rules that the industry works with.

If there is no market for mature, well-written games yet, how come that The Last of Us, Bioshock, The Walking Dead and so on sold pretty well? I mean yea I agree that games as a whole are still a pretty immature medium, but no need to paint them worse than they are.

But yea sure you're right that mature games will have a more mature portrayal of female characters... otherwise we couldn't call them mature. And yes we will have more such games with more such characters, but it will not happen automatically, it will happen because people keep asking for it, and put their money where their mouth is too. And what is, for example criticising shitty content all the time so devs don't want to include it anymore for fear of bad publicity anything else but "manipulating the rules"?
Today you get scrutizined by the fans and the press for this... just 5 or 10 years ago, that was not so much the case.

 

[dyre]

We should be working on shaking off the "games are meant to be adolescent escapist fantasy" stereotype first; once there's a market for mature, well-written games, then realistic, mature portrayals of females will occur naturally. As long as EA and Activision and so on sees its consumer base as bunch of teenagers, you're going to keep seeing scantily clad, one dimensional female characters. You don't change the industry by moralizing; you change it by manipulating the rules that the industry works with.

If there is no market for mature, well-written games yet, how come that The Last of Us, Bioshock, The Walking Dead and so on sold pretty well? I mean yea I agree that games as a whole are still a pretty immature medium, but no need to paint them worse than they are.

But yea sure you're right that mature games will have a more mature portrayal of female characters... otherwise we couldn't call them mature. And yes we will have more such games with more such characters, but it will not happen automatically, it will happen because people keep asking for it, and put their money where their mouth is too. And what is, for example criticising shitty content all the time so devs don't want to include it anymore for fear of bad publicity anything else but "manipulating the rules"?
Today you get scrutizined by the fans and the press for this... just 5 or 10 years ago, that was not so much the case.

The Walking Dead is more of a niche game for a smaller demographic, but I agree that we do see a few well-written, mature games. But on the whole the balance is a lot less mature than more established mediums like film, theatre, literature, etc.

Criticizing shitty content is of course a good thing, but I think the specific nature of the criticism (an extreme emphasis on sex/gender issues) is premature, sort of putting the cart before the horse. You can demand realistic portrayals of women from Capcom all you want, but the way they write their games now, that demand is simply impossible..they don't have realistic portrayals of anything! It would be more effective for gamers to ask for well-written games first, then iron out the sub-issues (like realistic portrayal of women) afterwards.

 

[BreakfastMan]

We should be working on shaking off the "games are meant to be adolescent escapist fantasy" stereotype first; once there's a market for mature, well-written games, then realistic, mature portrayals of females will occur naturally. As long as EA and Activision and so on sees its consumer base as bunch of teenagers, you're going to keep seeing scantily clad, one dimensional female characters. You don't change the industry by moralizing; you change it by manipulating the rules that the industry works with.

If there is no market for mature, well-written games yet, how come that The Last of Us, Bioshock, The Walking Dead and so on sold pretty well? I mean yea I agree that games as a whole are still a pretty immature medium, but no need to paint them worse than they are.

But yea sure you're right that mature games will have a more mature portrayal of female characters... otherwise we couldn't call them mature. And yes we will have more such games with more such characters, but it will not happen automatically, it will happen because people keep asking for it, and put their money where their mouth is too. And what is, for example criticising shitty content all the time so devs don't want to include it anymore for fear of bad publicity anything else but "manipulating the rules"?
Today you get scrutizined by the fans and the press for this... just 5 or 10 years ago, that was not so much the case.

The Walking Dead is more of a niche game for a smaller demographic, but I agree that we do see a few well-written, mature games. But on the whole the balance is a lot less mature than more established mediums like film, theatre, literature, etc.

Yeah, I am not so certain about that. Gaming overwhelmingly has many more "genre" stories than other mediums, yes, but "genre fiction" isn't inherently less mature. We really shouldn't make the same mistakes that film and literature has, and fetishize drama. :\