Lupus in fabula said:
I prepared a longer answer for this but I don't have it available right now, so here's a smaller one:
In regards to "crime syndicates":
(True) Anarchists are inherently peaceful, but also extremely violent against any and all people that try to impose their authority upon them. The notion that a few thousands thugs can overcome several millions of Anarchists is quite funny. You also assume that thugs and pimps are some kind of elite military force that will fight with no remorse for their right to use their pimp-hand on their bitches. Pretty naive stuff.
Ahem.
The notion that few dedicated people can take on a large unorganized, by definition, force?
The fact you think Criminal Organizations are nothing more then thugs and pimps who just want to slap a ***** is pretty naive. Not every criminal lives the Gangsta life. A lot take there business seriously.
30 people armed with guns and with prior experience using them, and having said guns used agaisnt them. Versus a 100 people who the majority have never used guns, don't own a gun, have never been in a state of life or death, and refuse to follow anyone's instructions in a fight. Hmm... To think the hundred unarmed, un-experienced could take on people who own and can use guns and are working as a team following orders is pretty damn naive.
No, thugs aren't battle hardened soldiers. However the branch Group of the Asain Mob that sells drugs in my town? Yeah I'm thinking they know what the fuck there doing. Not to mention they outnumber the police in my area.
In regards to Kropotkin having authority:
When we say someone is an authority on a subject we simply mean he is well-informed and it would be wise to study his work, even though one might not agree with it. Einstein was an authority on Mathematics and Physics that does not mean that he commanded the natural elements, does it? So what makes you think Kropotkin has any sort of authority over me or anyone else for that matter?
If Kropotkin was alive today and he commanded me to spit-shine his shoes, I would tell him to fuck-off. Having actually read about Kropotkin though, I highly doubt he would ask anyone to do that...
Well, you following his ideals and beliefs for starters. While you may not obey his direct orders to spit shine your shoes if he gave you an order you agreed with you would happily go along with it. After all, your here, telling me to read his stuff, and following his word.
Not to mention if a cop, my mayor, my prime minister, or my priemier walked up to me and told me to spit shine his shoes I'd tell him to fuck off and give him the finger. Magically, i do not have to exist in an anarchist society to do that, and if he tried to force me to do so, i could have him arrested. Don't think that's possible?
Talk to Gordan Campbell.
In regards to the rest of your post:
What you did was take an absolutist view of Anarchy and apply it to an existing Western contemporary capitalist society like one in the US for example. I could as easily apply this logic in respect to Democracy, and demonstrate that according to the Ancient Greeks, the only people that have ever lived under Democratic rule in the history of mankind, all USA citizens are idiots that have the same function and rights on a society as slaves.
Funny, not many people would view the rights they have as slaves. How, exactly. People have a lot more power then the allow themselves. Because to many people spout self defeating crap like "Oh were all oppressed!" people believe it. So instead of saying "hey, you know if i actually went out and did something to work towards making this place better." people sit on there ass and justify doing nothing.
That's my biggest problem with what most people talk about anarchy. Nothing is stopping you from creating strong communities working together for a common goal. Who is stopping you from going to you neighbors houses and talking to them. Creating friendships.
Nothing is stopping you from convincing your neighbors to all tear down your fences and start growing crops in your backyards to live off of. Nothing is stopping you from organizing a system so if someone in your community falls on hard times the community picks his feet back up instead of drawing cash from the government. People already have the power to work together as a one rather then waiting for the government to help them.
People create excuses to stop themselves from doing anything. "Were all just so horribly oppressed" is one of the most prevalent ones i have ever heard.
Also. Telling people there are idiots and slaves because they don't agree with you. Hmm... Seems kinda.. Oppressive to me.
I also never claimed that unless you read my (sic) book you could not speak against Anarchy. This is just another of your own spurious arguments your post is rife with. I simply advised you to read Kropotkin in order to be informed on an issue about which you obviously know very little.
Read any book by Piotr Kropotkin and then come here and present your case against his theory.
Sooooo that was totally not you saying i had to read his books before speaking my mind about something.
Maybe if you said, "Read any of the books X wrote for a better understanding of anarchy".
No. You said "Read
and then speak"
You told me i shouldn't speak until i read your guys book.
Spurious arguments?
Man, your argument is that i should read what your guy thinks. Wow. That's an argument right there.
Last but not least, you are conflating knowledge and guidance with oppression and authority. Which makes me wonder: Do you always feel minuscule and insignificant when your dentist or plumber give you advice?
Your assuming all forms of government instantly mean oppression and totalitarianism. I am not oppressed by my government.
Oh dear. I can get arrested for drinking and doing drugs in public, killing, stealing, and causing harm and havoc to others. I am totally oppressed.
As much as people piss and moan about anti-drug laws the fact remains unless your getting stoned in public or selling your drugs to children or in crowded places there is no way to get caught doing it. My brother grew a plant in my parents basement and only my dad knew about it for years. He only knew because he used to grow them himself as a teen. Amazingly he never got caught.
Fuck right to free speech, and movement. What about my rights to rape someone while doing heroin and murdering there children. Canada and the US are hardly police states. You want a police state? head to the middle east. At the moment if a cop does even the slightest thing wrong in an investigation a lawyer will exploit it and get you away with murder.
Do i feel minuscule or insignificant in the sight of a plumber? No. Neither do i feel that way in front of a cop, soldier, doctor, Fire fighter, or Politician. If you do that i strongly suggest some form of self esteem exercises.
You also say that:
The whole anarchy belief relies that everyone will suddenly drop all there difference and come together and welcome each other as brothers and sisters.
Well the whole Democracy belief is that the majority rules. So the most Democratic thing to do is to have a vote on whether or not we should banish gay people on an island in the middle of nowhere, and maybe also vote whether or not we should kick the Jews out of the Middle East. Would you agree with the idea of having such a vote in the first place? Would that not be according to Democratic principles Americans seem to be so supportive of?
You'd have me if it wasn't for the fact that you point proves mine.
I was saying that people will not magically be best friends for ever. Not that it wasn't an ideal situation. I would love to pieces if people could stop killing each other over stupid crap. However i don't see that happening for a long, long time.
On another note if the majority votes for such a thing in a democratic government whats to stop the majority from just oppressing them. What's to stop a homophobe from just murdering his gay neighbors? Take a small town community. What if a district all decided to kill the homosexuals.
"That would never happen anarchists are peaceful!"
Wishes in one hand and shit in the other.
You are also very wrong when you say that societies that live under authoritarian regimes thrive. Unless you truly believe that North Korea is heaven on Earth...societies thrive when people are allowed to use their knowledge, initiative, and imagination, not when they are ordered around. Taylorism is so out-of-fashion...
Oh yes, total extremes is what i mean. Never mind that i said Authoritative, not Authoritarian. Which are actually incredibly different things.
Authoritative is a society that creates boundaries that can be bent or broken depending on the situation and arguments. So while a rule might come into existence "No Stealing" if the culprit say, stole to feed his family because of hard times, the culprit would be helped rather then harmed. Societies thrive being allowed there knowledge, oh my god. That's exactly what i god damn said.
I never said, "One guy commanding everyone to do everything unquestioningly is the best system ever!"
I have said "A committee listening to the people and making decisions based on suggestions is a good step towards a good form of government"
The second time you still ignored the majority of my post, missed the fact i was saying i feel Anarchy can not exist because humans instinctively seek out leaders and guidance.
I do not. Do you seek a leader?
Regardless. This is above all a matter of education, not instinct.
If your tasked to build that shed i mentioned but had NO clue what to do would you
a)Start trying to do it without any clue or
b)Ask if anyone knows what there doing, then listen and follow his guidance as he helps you to figure out what your doing.
When i have no idea what I am doing i seek people to help me. To guide me.
When faced with a large number of problems and trouble I am comforted that someone is there to help me and advise me as i move forward.
I have never said "I want someone to guide my every thought and action like I'm a puppet"
People seek those who can lead. When your not doing anything important of course not. I don't need a leader reading webcomics. However in dangerous situations, real danger, its easy to react to commands then to think. To move as one group, one mind, rather then to have twenty people panicking.
Your standing on a lake with your friends, suddenly you hear the ice crack. You quickly fall flat and spread your weight out. You notice your three other friends are panicking, worse yet they are standing. Do you,
a)Shout at your friends to lay the fuck down flat so they ice doesn't break or
b)Do nothing, for giving them an order would be forcing your authority upon them.
Let's throw in that they know its better to lay flat. However they are panicking. It's instinct to listen to the one shouting things at you in a dire situation.
When your in a burning building you don't think, "I should follow the firefighter because he is better educated" you think "......" because your in a god damn burning building and there is a big strong person in fire resistant gear leading you to safety.
That's instinct. You don't have to be taught "Follow the guy who knows what he is doing"
You know by nature that when someone seems to be on the ball go with that person.
Did you mimic your dad growing up? Did you do it because someone explicitly told you "mimic your dad" or did it occur to you "hey, this guy seems to know what he is doing, lets mimic him"
Watching and learning how others react is instinct. Not a matter of education.
Fun fact:
Police does NOT prevent crime. The job of the police is to chase the guilty or suspect and bring him to a court of justice. If someone is determined to break into your house, kill you, and steal your property, there is not one damn thing the police can do to stop him. AFTER he has killed you and robbed you, the police might capture him.
So.. Cops are a form of oppression.
Yet, at the SAME TIME, will do nothing to stop any crime ever.
How are they oppressing you yet not doing anything.
Either they are oppressing you, which would mean cops WOULD stop you from doing things.
Or they are not oppressing you, which would mean your statement is true, though cops being a force of authority or oppression is false.
Now that i am done with that, let me finish something else.
Do i think my government is super perfect? No.
Do i think the form of democracy/capitalism is super perfect? No.
Do i think anarchy would work in the state the people are in now? No.
Anarchy itself would not work at the present time because it would lead to damage. People will kill each other. Unless the country is already in a blissful state with one another anarchy would fail. Until the day comes that it comes naturally it will not happen. What I have been saying all the way up till now is that if anarchy were to just happen. As in tomorrow the government was dissolved and the police and military were to disband. People would die. Violent battles would ensue. For every 'thug' there are several dozen customers willing to die to score more heroin. What would happen after the blood shed, regardless of who would win. What you would get is outside forces invading.
"But millions of fre..."
No. You would get outside forces releasing small insurgents. Causing damage and havoc that would be untraceable. If tomorrow your house exploded would you blame some invading force, or someone who lives nearby.
Do you understand how panic works. You kill enough people and a town panics. If tomorrow you found out half your neighborhood was murdered in there sleep would you just shrug it off? With no border guards or military or any sort foreign forces could walk into the country. Raise havoc, and slip out unnoticed. This would incite panic. This would lead to blood. How long would it be before people started accusing each other. Panic and hysteria are powerful weapons. A country with no defenses is one that is doomed to burn.
Furthermore. You seem to have it in your head i think everything is perfect. I don't. While i am free i feel my government is corrupt. The Canadian government wastes millions of hard earned tax dollars a year on bullshit, then votes itself to get a raise.
I however think the answer is uniting and saying No. Reminding that the government works for US. That they respond to OUR call. That parliament works for the people, and serve us. That my taxes go towards school, hospitals, and public defense. Not there own god damn pocket.
That intelligent, intuitive, caring, strong people are the only ones who should lead.
We need a government that leads as it needs, not following a specific guidebook.
We need a population that cares about its country and is willing to work to make there cities great rather then throw money in a pot and ***** when nothing happens.
We do not have that now because no one votes. Because no one is willing to put the work in.
Saying "Why vote, it won't mean anything" is easier then going out and doing something. Its easier then going out, forming a party, and working to become the new government. It's easier to sit back and do nothing.
Finally, the biggest axe in anarchy is you. In order for anarchy to work the most precious resource the country would need is understanding.
So far you, a supporter of anarchy, have said to me...
Response one: Stock answer.
Response two: Stock answer mixed with "Read this before you can speak"
Response three: Dodged talking to me about anything or any of my criticisms and jumped straight into criticizing a government i have stated in other posts and now this one i think is flawed and mildly corrupt.
Do i understand everything about your belief? No. So how about instead of regurgitating stock answers and telling me why my current government is flawed, something i agree to and want to change, you actually answer my questions and speak a bit about your beliefs and educate people on them.
Rather then sling mud, take everything spoken to an absolute extreme.
So far, the msot you ahve said is:
"Crime syndicates wouldn't survive"
Why?
"because there is more of us!"
But they have better equipment, better experience, organization, and legions of people willing to lie and sell people out for drugs. Always remember that most Crime orgs are not like the Fifty cent show and more like hardened criminals and killers. Not everyone is a teenager aiming a shotgun sideways to look cool. A lot of them are seasoned, trained, heavily armed, armored, professional killers who happen to like the power they have and are not willing to give it up.
Would they win? Whose to say. the fact ends with many, many many people would die.
Can you walk outside and point out four children and tell them, "I am willing to let you die for what i believe"
"But there's MORE of us! MORE is more!"
How about rather then talking to me like I am some monster you must slay you talk to me like I am one of those equals you think everyone should treat each other as.
Instead of attack beliefs i don't even hold how about taking my questions and concerns and talking to me and legitimately explaining them and disusing how your society you desire would work.
If all you can do is tell me I have no idea what I am talking about and throw mud then why should i take you seriously?
