Angry Joe's interview with Major Nelson

[Chester Rabbit]

At first this starts out pretty good but then once Joe gets to the always online questions that?s when Nelson there starts tying himself into the same knot that everyone at Microsoft has been since they announced this nightmare. And from there on he starts acting like a douche bag trying to deflect questions back at Joe or just completely side step them with sarcastic snark.
Under the circumstances I would say Joe handled this pretty well. Not going to hard and knowing when to lay off when Major appeared to be getting agitated.

 

[Lopende Paddo]

People keep acting like Microsoft should be obliged to answer for the way their distribution system works. They really don't they've decided that they're using this cloud-based, pseudo-DRM.....thing. And that's their decision moving forward, how good this system actually is is going to come down to the gritty details of exactly how the system is implemented and how much give/take the system provides in terms of the restrictions / conveniences balance. People are acting like this distribution system's restriction is worst thing since Hitler, at the moment it sounds like it's going to function in a manner similar to Steam, I'll say it again, the actual effectiveness / hindrance of this system will come down to how generous / dickish Microsoft are about their implementation. All shall be revealed in the fullness of time.

Having said all that I'm not terribly optimistic, Microsoft have a far from stellar track record. i'm going to sit this gen out on the PC until the exact nature of the beast(s) emerge.

I envoke Godwins Law.

OT: Joe did a good job at the interview although his subject dodged everything while explaining nothing (classic PR training i would say, the guy should be in politics) I'll stick to pc and enjoy the rest of the current gen games.

 

[sanquin]

You do know he's the director of programming for xbox live right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Hryb

Nope I didn't... And considering that new information (for me at least): Yup, he's a douche. At least when it comes to Microsoft. Dunno how he is outside of work. (for obvious reasons.)

 

[barbzilla]

Just because Steam has been doing it longer doesn't make it better. I do use Steam and I won't buy the Xbone but you won't hear me saying "PC for the win" or anything similar because it seems stupid to me to run from Microsoft's DRM straight to PC.

People going to Sony and Nintendo, great. People going to PC are just trading DRM heavy for DRM heavy.

Re-read my post, I'm not arguing that they are right because they've been doing it longer. I am just explaining why they are doing it. I also think that STEAM is a heavy handed DRM machine, but I can also see why people use it. It became a standardised system for DRM on the PC, in an age where DRM practices were getting way out of hand (Sony's Spyware DRM for example). They then tried to balance that system by adding functionality and sales. Does that make their DRM right, no, it just makes it palatable. In all honesty, the Xbox DRM will one day be considered palatable, but people running from it, are trying to keep that day from being today.

In short, Steam = DRM, I don't argue this fact, and I never have. X1 = newly imposed DRM that hasn't been seen before on a console, which may lead to a whole new age of DRM heavy, anti-consumer policies on consoles in the near future. That is the difference I wanted to point out, not that Steam is a shiny golden nugget in a sea of shit, it is a polished turd in a sea of shit, but MSFT is a viper in a sea of constrictors.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Also, using a mobile phone to use the Xbone. Man, that phone bill would be insane.

Tethering should have been a logical answer for the people that said they might want to travel with their Xbone or for when people have temporary problems with the landline broadband and need to do the 24hr check in, I do not know why it was such a revelation. However tethering is all well and good for people with contracts, no hints on how much bandwidth this daily check in uses so PAYG users could be out of luck even with that.

Thats just a check in, I bet the Xbone will need patches all the time just like this gen so even people with service plans could end up out of luck too. Data plans are only going to get more and more expensive from now on anyway, not until the technology changes a lot and LTE-A is not going to make any difference and it won't be until we get "real" 4G or 5G as it will probably be called until we start to get prices back on track.

People going to Sony and Nintendo, great. People going to PC are just trading DRM heavy for DRM heavy.

Because for the most part PC DRM like Steam isn't that bad, sure it might be on the used games perspective but in general its ok with offline modes and the fact that does have some benefits which make it a bit more palatable. The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

 

[J Tyran]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

Besides which I am not talking about sales being cheaper digitally than used at companies like LameStop, the prices altogether are cheaper than you can get used copies. When the sales start the prices really get nuts.

 

[Something Amyss]

To be fair, he's given some straight answers in regards to playing games offline after the life of the console and some other things, but generally what he seems to not realise is that embracing the future isn't doing shit for the consumers.

Actually, his straight answers are kind of evasive anyway. He just said, effectively, that they had no exit strategy for this generation based on the mentality that it hasn't started yet. This simultaneously undercuts other claims AND indicates a potential major flaw here.

More importantly, though: the future. Microsoft is trying to take us to A future, and treating it as more or less the inevitable outcome. This future overwhelminly benefits the industry over the consumer. I think Larry and Microsoft realise that just fine. In fact, my theory is this is WHY they're pushing it so hard. In fact, the very notion that they have so little to offer the consumer is exactly why they're pushing as fervently as they do.

But what's their alternative? Let the future shape itself? Hope we just decide to give away our rights? Risk something as horrible as the compact disc coming to the market again?

People going to Sony and Nintendo, great. People going to PC are just trading DRM heavy for DRM heavy.

Of course, Sony and Nintendo also use DRM, so that argument falls flat. Consoles are designed in such a way as to include DRM by nature. The PC on the other hand?

If only there was a way to get access to a large library of legal, DRM-free games on my PC!

*looks at gaming library*

PRAISE TO THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS PC GODS!

(and I'm not even a heavy PC gamer)

I started out hating Joe back in the day... now I feel nothing but respect for him.

Mostly, he just annoys me.

Whow, a thread about Angry Joe!? That's awesome for I wasn't exactly sure as to how many people knew him but thanks OP for this!

I can never tell.

Also, using a mobile phone to use the Xbone. Man, that phone bill would be insane.

Tethering should have been a logical answer for the people that said they might want to travel with their Xbone or for when people have temporary problems with the landline broadband and need to do the 24hr check in, I do not know why it was such a revelation. However tethering is all well and good for people with contracts, no hints on how much bandwidth this daily check in uses so PAYG users could be out of luck even with that.

Thats just a check in, I bet the Xbone will need patches all the time just like this gen so even people with service plans could end up out of luck too. Data plans are only going to get more and more expensive from now on anyway, not until the technology changes a lot and LTE-A is not going to make any difference and it won't be until we get "real" 4G or 5G as it will probably be called until we start to get prices back on track.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

Unfortunately, that die was cast a long time ago.

 

[Something Amyss]

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

Now, now, you may not like retail, but there's no need to offer histrionic scare mongering about the "harm" to the industry.

 

[WeepingAngels]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

I am referring to the consumer right to resell your games and not just at Gamestop either. Ever heard of garage sales, eBay, Amazon, local game shops and to friends.

I don't consider low prices to be a replacement for the right to resell my games. I consider prices to be a completely different subject from DRM. You can have heavy DRM and low prices and you can have heavy DRM and high prices, Steam has both since most games are not on sale most of the time. For example, you can buy Skyrim Legendary Edition for $60 on PC and not be able to resell it or you can buy it on the PS3/360 in physical form for the same price and be able to resell it. See how DRM and price are not connected?

Saying "I'll give up my consumer rights for cheap games" isn't a good message to send to publishers.

 

[J Tyran]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

I am referring to consumer right to resell your games and not just at Gamestop either. Ever heard of garage sales, eBay, Amazon, local game shops and to friends.

I don't consider low prices to be a replacement for the right to resell my games. I consider prices to be a completely different subject from DRM. You can have heavy DRM and low prices and you can have heavy DRM and high prices, Steam has both since most games are not on sale most of the time. For example, you can buy Skyrim Legendary Edition for $60 on PC and not be able to resell it or you can buy it on the PS3/360 in physical form and be able to resell it. See how DRM and price are not connected?

Reselling games has never been a consumer "right" its just been a thing consumers did.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

Now, now, you may not like retail, but there's no need to offer histrionic scare mongering about the "harm" to the industry.

A lot of bullshit gamers have to put up with has been traced back to these retailers, like pre order bonuses for example. This whole used games mess would never have gotten started either if these companies hadn't started talking customers into buying a used copy of a game instead of buying a new one. Publishers where never really happy about used games but its business practices like that which have forced the issue.

 

[WeepingAngels]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

I am referring to consumer right to resell your games and not just at Gamestop either. Ever heard of garage sales, eBay, Amazon, local game shops and to friends.

I don't consider low prices to be a replacement for the right to resell my games. I consider prices to be a completely different subject from DRM. You can have heavy DRM and low prices and you can have heavy DRM and high prices, Steam has both since most games are not on sale most of the time. For example, you can buy Skyrim Legendary Edition for $60 on PC and not be able to resell it or you can buy it on the PS3/360 in physical form and be able to resell it. See how DRM and price are not connected?

Reselling games has never been a consumer "right" its just been a thing consumers did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Consumers do it and are protected by law. I call that a consumer right, you call it what you like. In the end, people showing publishers that they are willing to give up their right to resell is just the wiggle room publishers need to completely take it away. Publishers see people buying cheap games but they also see people paying full price for digital games.

It can be argued that Microsoft saw how much praise Steam gets and decided on it's course for the Xbone.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Also people turning off your xbox by yelling XBOX OFF, you know, parents, girlfriends, friends being jerks, lol.

I want to cruise the streets screaming "Xbox off" through a mega phone.

 

[Zenn3k]

Major Nelson's interview with Skydart (from Reddit) was WAY different in tone...probably because Skydart is a very attractive female and Angry Joe is not.

Nelson dodges too many questions to bother listening to him speak.

 

[J Tyran]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

I am referring to consumer right to resell your games and not just at Gamestop either. Ever heard of garage sales, eBay, Amazon, local game shops and to friends.

I don't consider low prices to be a replacement for the right to resell my games. I consider prices to be a completely different subject from DRM. You can have heavy DRM and low prices and you can have heavy DRM and high prices, Steam has both since most games are not on sale most of the time. For example, you can buy Skyrim Legendary Edition for $60 on PC and not be able to resell it or you can buy it on the PS3/360 in physical form and be able to resell it. See how DRM and price are not connected?

Reselling games has never been a consumer "right" its just been a thing consumers did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Consumers do it and are protected by law. I call that a consumer right, you call it what you like. In the end, people showing publishers that they are willing to give up their right to resell is just the wiggle room publishers need to completely take it away. Publishers see people buying cheap games but they also see people paying full price for digital games.

It can be argued that Microsoft saw how much praise Steam gets and decided on it's course for the Xbone.

Yes you have the right to do what you want with the plastic disk, you only bought a licence for software however (i.e. the game) so right of first sale doesn't apply. If its law why is it happening with physical copies of Steam games or Origin games and will be happening with Xbone games?

I think its a future people are just going to have to either suck up, get a new hobby or just stick with whatever happens to be on GoG. We have been moving towards this since consoles started connecting to internet in earnest.

It never bothered me with the PC because it had already happened before I started playing on the PC back in 2005, no point getting upset over a battle that was already lost and I saw the advantages of it and how much better Steam actually is than retail.

 

[WeepingAngels]

The used games bit is cancelled out by the fact that you buy the games new from digital distribution more cheaply than you can get used copies of console games from ripoff places like Game.

Maybe you are of the opinion that good sale prices replace consumer rights but I am not.

If by consumer rights you mean paying more for your products at the more anti consumer business then you are welcome to them, if toddling into a store that rips you off and harms the industry with your plastic disk makes you feel like your "fitin teh powah" good luck to you.

I exercise my consumer rights to get my items at a good price, at my convenience and from a company that's not actively ruining the industry.

I am referring to consumer right to resell your games and not just at Gamestop either. Ever heard of garage sales, eBay, Amazon, local game shops and to friends.

I don't consider low prices to be a replacement for the right to resell my games. I consider prices to be a completely different subject from DRM. You can have heavy DRM and low prices and you can have heavy DRM and high prices, Steam has both since most games are not on sale most of the time. For example, you can buy Skyrim Legendary Edition for $60 on PC and not be able to resell it or you can buy it on the PS3/360 in physical form and be able to resell it. See how DRM and price are not connected?

Reselling games has never been a consumer "right" its just been a thing consumers did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

Consumers do it and are protected by law. I call that a consumer right, you call it what you like. In the end, people showing publishers that they are willing to give up their right to resell is just the wiggle room publishers need to completely take it away. Publishers see people buying cheap games but they also see people paying full price for digital games.

It can be argued that Microsoft saw how much praise Steam gets and decided on it's course for the Xbone.

Yes you have the right to do what you want with the plastic disk, you only bought a licence for software however (i.e. the game) so right of first sale doesn't apply. If its law why is it happening with physical copies of Steam games or Origin games and will be happening with Xbone games?

I think its a future people are just going to have to either suck up, get a new hobby or just stick with whatever happens to be on GoG. We have been moving towards this since consoles started connecting to internet in earnest.

It never bothered me with the PC because it had already happened before I started playing on the PC back in 2005, no point getting upset over a battle that was already lost and I saw the advantages of it and how much better Steam actually is than retail.

It's happening on Steam and Origin because it hasn't been legally challenged in the US or maybe it's because Steam and Origin are services and not a product...probably both. It can happen to console games too if people allow it.

My only point is this: "Steam is not a refuge from Microsoft's DRM". Simple really, people can talk about Steam sales but in my mind, sales and DRM are not the same thing.

 

[Rickin10]

A lot of bullshit gamers have to put up with has been traced back to these retailers, like pre order bonuses for example. This whole used games mess would never have gotten started either if these companies hadn't started talking customers into buying a used copy of a game instead of buying a new one. Publishers where never really happy about used games but its business practices like that which have forced the issue.

You really think publishers wouldn't have pulled all that shit if it weren't for the used game boogie man?

 

[saintdane05]

Major Nelson's interview with Skydart (from Reddit) was WAY different in tone...probably because Skydart is a very attractive female and Angry Joe is not.

.

Joe, however, is a very attractive man.

 

[Something Amyss]

Truth be told, I was actually very grateful to the OP for making a post about Angry Joe

It's just...You've been here for more than two weeks. It's a little mind kersploding to think you're surprised there are Angry Joe fans here. It's kind of like a music fan asking you if you've ever heard of these "Beatles" guys.

Fanboy Joe is so beloved around these parts I usually call the Fire Department before I voice my opinions on him.

 

[Something Amyss]

Reselling games has never been a consumer "right" its just been a thing consumers did.

First Sale Doctrine disagrees.

This whole used games mess would never have gotten started either if these companies hadn't started talking customers into buying a used copy of a game instead of buying a new one. Publishers where never really happy about used games but its business practices like that which have forced the issue.

You're arguing unprovable points to try and make retailers look evil because....Why, exactly? Just admit it, other industries have tried to crack down as well, without an analogue to Gamestop. There's no mystery here: corporations want more money and when they run out of ways to maximise profit internally they will look to external sources.

Simple. Elegant. Honest.

You really think publishers wouldn't have pulled all that shit if it weren't for the used game boogie man?

Publishers in video games are altruistic and far-sighted. Clearly, this kind of greed only exists everywhere else.