Animals that can become sapient and develop civilization?

[zumbledum]

I think we get this argument totally wrong. i think there's a lot of animals that would rate on comparable levels of intelligence self awareness and emotional depth, every one whose ever had a dog knows they have personalities emotion and it may be low but there's definite intelligence, Never mind the more able creatures like orca, monkeys , whales , dolphins etc.

i think the only thing that makes us different is imagination , the ability to picture abstract thoughts. to see an apple fall and realise there must be a reason, to watch a bath overflow and make the leap that the water displaced must be the same volume etc.

Beavers, birds and a bunch of other animals are tool users . but it takes that imaginary leap to move from that to farming.

i think a huge amount of animals have their own civilizations, they just don't see the need to change things to their advantage.


"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons." Douglas Admas

 

[shootthebandit]

Dolphins, killer whales, some felines, and most especially chimpanzees.

Actually, just noticed that there's some overlap with the more intelligent animals that have been given as possibilities.

I suppose this may have something to do with it. Perhaps this kind of behaviour is indictive of an over advanced predatory nature. It was probably more apparant in humans once farming was invented as we no longer required to hunt any more so we adapted our hunting nature into sport or war. Also at the time of farming conflict over land would have been a catalyst as livestock and farm land wouldve been valuable commodities

I would conclude that as predatory skills become more advanced the further the animal will push these skills and more often than not this will attack one another

Tangentially, another commonly referenced idea is that predatory behaviour itself is in some way conducive to intelligence - in terms of planning, setting goals, social behaviour. Hence why dolphins, orca, and to a lesser degree wolves and social big cats, are intelligent. And there's probably some merit to the idea - for the individual animal a herd defence is a far simpler series of stimuli and processes than the behaviour required to break that herd defence.
What's interesting is that elephants are entirely herbivorous and apparently always have been, and have nonetheless developed highly social and cooperative behaviour in spite of it. There aren't any other 'grazing' animals that do that.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

Well, for a civilisation to form you need a language, whether it be written or spoken or signed or whatever. Without a means to communicate abstractly, all insight and knowledge any individual has in its lifetime is lost once it dies. The civilisation can never advance, technology can never develop beyond the basic tools that individuals are able to make.

Dolphins already seem to have some kind of proto language, so they'd be a strong contender.

But I'd actually go with elephants (if we don't kill them off) because of their existing social tendencies and manipulative organs (ie trunks)

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Probably great apes. I've forgotten a lot of the details here so bear with me, but I did hear about chimpanzees somewhere in Africa eating ants. They taste awful and there's minimal nutritional benefit (they don't eat enough to have an impact anyway), but they do. In another part of Africa, chimpanzees will eat termites in the same way, for apparently no reason. As far as the researcher that was looking at this could discern, it's a cultural thing, used to show membership of the group. Interesting, huh?

Apart from apes, elephants and orcas have complex social structures, so there's that. I don't really know about elephants, but orcas are intelligent and adaptable, they learn different hunting methods to catch different prey in different parts of the world.

 

[Heronblade]

Will a bee ever use its sting to deliberatley cause harm to another creature simply for pleasure? I think youll find that it is only humans that exhibit that sort of behaviour (studies have shown this behaviour in a few cases amongst primates)

Dolphins, killer whales, some felines, and most especially chimpanzees.

Actually, just noticed that there's some overlap with the more intelligent animals that have been given as possibilities.

Interesting thought. Does "intelligence" actually breed this kind of behaviour?

If so could this behaviour be described as "advanced"?

I think more to the point, advanced intelligence leads to greater variations in personality. Which in turn can allow for douchebags being born.

Whether or not this behavior is curbed by ethical standards has more to do with social advances than evolutionary ones.

 

[Maxtro]

I've wondered what would the world be like if the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. I could imagine a smaller dinosaur that has prehensile hands developing actual intelligence over a vast time period.

The dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. Humans have only been on Earth for around 200,000 years and look at what we've accomplished in that very short time span. Pretend that dinosaurs didn't go extinct and then one dinosaur species achieved human intelligence 20 million years ago. By now they'd probably be flying in space and mastered faster than light travel.

 

[Kolby Jack]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

DO BEES DREAM?! Do they look to the stars and wonder "Who am I? Why am I here?" Does the bee, when it stings another creature, ever stop to think "How must it feel to be that creature, stung by me OOP I'M DEAD." NAY, SIR. I submit that it takes MORE than an efficient society and the meeting of basic needs to be considered "advanced." IT TAKES HOPE! AND FOLLY! AND PERSEVERANCE! But above all else, IT. TAKES. PASSION!!!

Phew... think I didn't get enough sleep last night. Probably should go to bed.

According to steven fry there are over 200 species of animal which exhibit homosexual behaviour yet only one that exhibits homophobic behaviour

Will a bee ever use its sting to deliberatley cause harm to another creature simply for pleasure? I think youll find that it is only humans that exhibit that sort of behaviour (studies have shown this behaviour in a few cases amongst primates)

So how is that advanced?

I recommend you watch a movie called "instinct" with antony hopkins. He plays an anthropologist studying gorillas and he gets lost and ends up living alongside the gorillas. He kills some poachers and gets arrested. He describes modern man as "takers" and how prehistoric man lived happily amongst the animals and only hunted what they needed

Why do you think we are described as "consumers" in the news. Because we just consume things until they run out then move onto something else. Just because we are aware of our actions it doesnt make us any more advanved than any other creature.

Can't argue with that "logic."

 

[Signa]

I feel like the OP and I saw the same image on Failblog recently...

 

[Kanova]

In all honesty, I don't think any animal on earth could match a civilization that we have.

 

[Heronblade]

In all honesty, I don't think any animal on earth could match a civilization that we have.

If you mean as they are now, of course not. They don't have the physical means to pull it off.

If otherwise, why not? They came from the exact same background we did, and have the same potential to change as we did.

Just because we happened to be the very first Earth creature to develop an advanced civilization does not mean that another could not match or exceed our efforts if given the opportunity.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I've wondered what would the world be like if the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. I could imagine a smaller dinosaur that has prehensile hands developing actual intelligence over a vast time period.

The dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. Humans have only been on Earth for around 200,000 years and look at what we've accomplished in that very short time span. Pretend that dinosaurs didn't go extinct and then one dinosaur species achieved human intelligence 20 million years ago. By now they'd probably be flying in space and mastered faster than light travel.

Assuming FTL travel is possible, yeah. Also, there's no reason to assume that dinosaurs would have evolved intelligence given another 45 million years, they've been around for quite some time in the past without that happening.

However, you bring up an important point. There's no particular reason why intelligence had to have been evolved now (or rather, relatively very recently). If humans ever discover life on other worlds, it'd probably be a billion years "distant" from ourselves (that is, sit around and wait a billion years for intelligent life, or intelligence evolved a billion years ago, not that evolution follows a linear pattern that can be predicted in advance).

 

[Maxtro]

I've wondered what would the world be like if the dinosaurs didn't go extinct. I could imagine a smaller dinosaur that has prehensile hands developing actual intelligence over a vast time period.

The dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago. Humans have only been on Earth for around 200,000 years and look at what we've accomplished in that very short time span. Pretend that dinosaurs didn't go extinct and then one dinosaur species achieved human intelligence 20 million years ago. By now they'd probably be flying in space and mastered faster than light travel.

Assuming FTL travel is possible, yeah. Also, there's no reason to assume that dinosaurs would have evolved intelligence given another 45 million years, they've been around for quite some time in the past without that happening.

However, you bring up an important point. There's no particular reason why intelligence had to have been evolved now (or rather, relatively very recently). If humans ever discover life on other worlds, it'd probably be a billion years "distant" from ourselves (that is, sit around and wait a billion years for intelligent life, or intelligence evolved a billion years ago, not that evolution follows a linear pattern that can be predicted in advance).

That's one thing I've thought of before.

Due to the extinction level events that happened on Earth, it's possible for another planet that had life develop around the same time as Earth, that didn't have those events, to have technology that is millions of years more advanced than us.

I'm going off-topic for the thread so I'll stop here.

 

[Montezuma's Lawyer]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

I don't think anyone will argue a Dolphins intelligence and sapience but I doubt they are capable of construction without some serious evolution and in the oceans current state there's not really any need for them to evolve, though it's hard to say as they really haven't been around all that long (11 Million Years I think?).

They also commit murder and rape.

We're so alike.

 

[DeimosMasque]

I would still say Dolphins.

I mean, they have a language, they have different dialects depending where abouts in the world they are, they give eachother names, they give HUMANS names who frequently visit and research them (Like how we name pets), they use basic tools (Getting a sea sponge on their nose so they dont graze themselves when rummaging the ocean floor).

I would go so far as to say they already ARE sentient, they just don't have an easy way to build things.

Would they make a super society that would challenge us? No. I doubt that would ever happen. But they certainly do have social structure, language, significant intelligence and the ability to use tools. We just can't speak Dolphin.

I don't think anyone will argue a Dolphins intelligence and sapience but I doubt they are capable of construction without some serious evolution and in the oceans current state there's not really any need for them to evolve, though it's hard to say as they really haven't been around all that long (11 Million Years I think?).

They also commit murder and rape.

We're so alike.

And racism and genocide. Can't forget that either.

Though I would actually argue that dolphins are NOT sentient. Yes they have a very large brain and show rudimentary intelligence, but at the same time alot of their brain cells are not active and instead are used to keep it warm in the cold waters.

 

[LightningFast]

You could argue that the societies created by bees and ants are actually more advanced than humans. There is evidence of a heirarchy, they obviously communicate effectively and operate as a unit

Bees and ants have a far larger impact on the earth than we do as human beings. If humans were wiped out the world would carry on (infact it would probably be better) where as without bees or ants the world would probably fail to exist

DO BEES DREAM?! Do they look to the stars and wonder "Who am I? Why am I here?" Does the bee, when it stings another creature, ever stop to think "How must it feel to be that creature, stung by me OOP I'M DEAD." NAY, SIR. I submit that it takes MORE than an efficient society and the meeting of basic needs to be considered "advanced." IT TAKES HOPE! AND FOLLY! AND PERSEVERANCE! But above all else, IT. TAKES. PASSION!!!

Phew... think I didn't get enough sleep last night. Probably should go to bed.

Please run for president.

OT: Most primates are at least somewhat capable of social structure and thought that we consider human, social structure being key here. Some mate for life, they live in larger groups, are capable of using thumbs and tools, and they even go to "war", to an extent. Though somewhat less dexterous than us, and certainly lacking in sentience, they could get there.

I like to think that if alien sentient life exists (which is possible, considering the events that led to life on Earth quite literally had all the time in the world to repeat infinitely until it built enough momentum) would more or less have the same basic characteristics as us, since they'd need to be capable of fine manipulation to build what we consider to be civilization. A specific set of circumstances need to be met for life to begin, and it's possible those same circumstances would set evolution on a similar course.

 

[Heronblade]

And racism and genocide. Can't forget that either.

Though I would actually argue that dolphins are NOT sentient. Yes they have a very large brain and show rudimentary intelligence, but at the same time alot of their brain cells are not active and instead are used to keep it warm in the cold waters.

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

Your right I did mix up sapient and sentient. It's an easy thing to do, especially if you adore sci-fi which tends to deal more with sentience than sapience. It makes you think that sentient is the more rare thing.

Secondly: While the dolphin brain is around the same size as a human brain there are two things to consider about it: The average dolphin is much bigger than the average human and it is adapted to live in deep waters of the ocean, which is very cold.

As a result the dolphin brain is full of glial cells. Neural cells that give the brain nutrients and oxygen and to insulate the brain. In comparison they also have less neurons which is what allows for thought processes and what not. I'm not claiming that they are not rather smart, possibly smarter than most aquatic mammals and such. But they aren't the super-geniuses that we thought they were in the 80s and 90s.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

I'd put my money on rats. They're one of the few non-primate species to show signs of metacognition- the ability to judge what you do or don't know, or what you can and can't do.

 

[Heronblade]

Two things

First off, sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Pretty much all animals right on down to the lowly slugs are sentient to some degree. I realize that the term often gets confused with sapience on a regular basis in most conversation and a great deal of science fiction, but lets try to keep it straight here. Of course, sapience is very poorly defined, so it isn't exactly easy to use either.

Secondly, not only have dolphins displayed more than just rudimentary intelligence, I've found nothing that supports this claim of using inactive brain cells to keep warm.

Frankly, I'm more than a little skeptical, that would be like taking parts of a motherboard and using it as insulation. Not only is it an incredible waste of valuable material, it is really ineffective, even as an emergency measure.

Your right I did mix up sapient and sentient. It's an easy thing to do, especially if you adore sci-fi which tends to deal more with sentience than sapience. It makes you think that sentient is the more rare thing.

Secondly: While the dolphin brain is around the same size as a human brain there are two things to consider about it: The average dolphin is much bigger than the average human and it is adapted to live in deep waters of the ocean, which is very cold.

As a result the dolphin brain is full of glial cells. Neural cells that give the brain nutrients and oxygen and to insulate the brain. In comparison they also have less neurons which is what allows for thought processes and what not. I'm not claiming that they are not rather smart, possibly smarter than most aquatic mammals and such. But they aren't the super-geniuses that we thought they were in the 80s and 90s.

Ah, glial cells, that old preconception strikes again.

90% of our own brains are composed of glial cells, and said cells take a significantly greater part in our thought processes than we were originally aware of. In fact, one particular type of glial cell is argued to be largely responsible for abstract thinking.

 

[Clowndoe]

I think there have been enough guesses here that I can don't have to add yet another. One thing I'd like to point out is that I think as far as reaching our stage of civilization again, assuming we go extinct or something, the odds are pretty much null.

I thinking about metalworking, which we could only have discovered because copper and iron used to exist in seams on the earth's surface and is pretty much all gone now. What's left is deep beneath the earth, where you could only find it if you knew what you were looking for. Them elephants better get really good at recycling if they ever hope to get out of the Stone Age.