Anime and Female characters (yes, this topic again)

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

yes, it's this type of topic again, No I am serious

basic abstract is that I feel that anime has some really good female characters but is so bogged down in fanservice and self-insert that it's problematic

The long version: Look, I'm a guy so I feel I can't classify myself as a feminist despite agreeing with the main points of equality of genders. If being a guy invalidates some of my views sorry.

Anyway, being an anime fan since 2000, I've noticed that we really have an issue with female characters. More often than not, we get characters and situations that are either there for pure fanservice

Spoiler: my god, why

or are designed to be so perfect that I am inclined to call them Waifu material (Asuna definitely feels like that).

Now, I mentioned good female characters: I think that Lacus Clyne, Kouzuki Kallen and Holo the Wisewolf are well written female characters that, while they definitely have their TnA moments, have decent writing that carries them though a story.

So, I ask anyone reading the post,

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Edit: if possible I would like people to give more than one sentence answers to what I'm asking, maybe add something in about the culture of japan or trope analysis. Just asking

 

[thundra]

- my favorite female characters in anime are. Tomoko kuroki from watamote, Mikasa from SNK (i'm bad at names)
- you beat me to it with high school of the dead
-idk
-i think they are increasing
-issue is there are far too many

 

[Fappy]

- Major Motoko Kusanagi (GitS), Misaki Kirihara (Darker than Black), all three main FLCL girls, Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop), Ryuuko Matoi & Satsuki Kiryuin (Kill la Kill), the list goes on...

- Pick any recent harem anime (or recent anime with harem tropes) and you're good to go. They're all fanservice-y garbage in that regard

- Increasing. It's all about merchandising and marketing to the lonely otaku crowd. It's fucking depressing, really

- Yes, it does. It's becoming a bigger and bigger aspect of the industry and will continue to grow as long as people keep fapping to the shit they put out.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Hayao Miyazaki's female characters are generally very good, apart maybe from Sheeta from Laputa: Castle in the Sky. And a more recent example is Tomoko from Watamote. Probably the least trope ridden anime female I've ever seen.

Anime is becoming less and less profitable as the years go by, so it needs to get its lion share from merchandise. That's why nearly all female characters in anime these days are designed in a way so that geeks will wanna buy them as action figures. I know people like to defend the Kill la Kill outfits as somekind of parody, but you can bet they were designed to titilize first and foremost to get those action figures and love pillows out the door.

And despite me mentioning Tomoko, even she has a fucking love pillow variant. I've seen it. *sigh* Fucking anime sometimes, man.

 

[NoX 9]

That 'Highschool of the Dead' clip is the funniest shit I have ever seen anyone do to boobs! I'm still at work, and someone walking by my office asked me if I was ok, thinking I had been crying -which I sort of had. Who comes up with this stuff?! X3

I would in no way consider myself an anime fan. I don't know the general quirks and styles of anime, so please bust me gently when I screw up! I have barely seen any of it, but some friends are big time fans and will sometimes recommend -or nearly force me to see- some anime. Very frequently there is the kind of stuff you describe (though not as extreme as that absolutely insane clip!), and most of the time it is so incredibly contrived and out of place that I can't help roll my eyes and once again start thinking maybe anime isn't for me. The 'unfortunate' low camera angles are EVERYWHERE around the predominantly skirt-wearing female cast, and inexcplicably flobbing tits in tight clothing is clearly a second favorite. Not that I don't get it -I'm gay and imagine I apreciate a nice pair of boobs as much as your average straight male-, but this 'fan-service' doesn't show any regard for time and place! It often comes out of nowhere and adds a weird kind of sexuality to scenes where it really doesn't belong. If some crazy lady just killed the fuck out of everyone in a room, an upskirt shot is NOT what I feel is the suitable button on that scene! That makes it feel awkward, and also kills a bit of the drama and tention. I can see she has a firm buttock, but what does that have to do with the mass murder that just took place? I'm sorry, but I cannot remember the name of the anime in question; maybe some of you can?

Like I said though, I am not a fan. I have seen this in most of the stuff my friends have recommended to me, but I'm sure that is most likely because of their personal tastes, and not because 'all anime is like that'. Also haven't dared venture into the world of anime on my own yet. Tried to find a nice romantic manga by myself once, but only one of the ones I picked turned out to not be porn. I thought my friends would be the best to ask for recommendations as they know me, but they seem to struggle finding something to suit my taste! If you have something particularily good that would suit a 'beginner', feel free to suggest it! =3

-Not really, nobody is making you watch bad anime, not to mention anime is not a single genre, it's like saying South park and Avatar

But isn't Avatar anime, while South Park isn't? Avatar certainly looks like anime anyway. If it's not, does that go for Pokemon too? I don't mean to be a smartass or anything, I'm just curious to where the line is drawn, and to what separates anime from other animation.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Hayao Miyazaki's female characters are generally very good, apart maybe from Sheeta from Laputa: Castle in the Sky. And a more recent example is Tomoko from Watamote. Probably the least trope ridden anime female I've ever seen.

Anime is becoming less and less profitable as the years go by, so it needs to get its lion share from merchandise. That's why nearly all female characters in anime these days are designed in a way so that geeks will wanna buy them as action figures. I know peple like to defend the Kill la Kill outfits as some kind of parody, but you can bet they were designed to titilize first and foremost to get those action figures and love pillows out the door.

And despite me mentioning Tomoko, even she has a fucking love pillow variant. I've seen it. *sigh* Fucking anime sometimes, man.

On the topic of Kill la Kill, are you on the side that likes it or dislikes it? I haven't seen you comment on it so I'm curious since my position on Kill la Kill is that it's dumb but it has subtext and theme hidden in it (Charles Dunbar talked about this but I don't want to completely parrot him) though I will agree that the kamui are a bit much

 

[Casual Shinji]

On the topic of Kill la Kill, are you on the side that likes it or dislikes it? I haven't seen you comment on it so I'm curious since my position on Kill la Kill is that it's dumb but it has subtext and theme hidden in it (Charles Dunbar talked about this but I don't want to completely parrot him) though I will agree that the kamui are a bit much

I've only seen maybe two episodes, so I can't really comment on the quality overall. Suffice to say I was extremely disappointed that instead of something in the vein of Little Witch Academia I got chicks in nipple wear.

 

[Elfgore]

These threads always ruin my mood for some reason, I don't know why... oh wait, I do! It's pretty much people saying every anime I enjoy is nothing but trash.

-Good anime character? Guess the girl from my avatar. Kurumi is hot, adorable, dangerous, sadistic, mysterious, and so much more. She proves she frequently doesn't need anyone to help her achieve her goals and we have no clue what she wants or what she plans to do. Not really trope-filled either.

-Hmmmm tough one, I guess To Love Ru. Tits galore, massive harem, easily likable girls, etc.

-I'd say it's actually decreasing. This anime season has like two harems, sure some other shows have fan-service, but not really at any large amount.

-No you have a problem with it. No one is forcing anyone to watch these shows. If you don't like the content, then just stop watching it. Don't force yourself to. Some people *gasp* like this stuff. So they can joyfully stick to what they like, while you can stick to what you like. Simple.[footnote]You is generalized by the way.[/footnote]

 

[DOOM GUY]

I don't really have a problem with fanservice, I mean, yeah, there's a lot of anime with fanservice, but some people like it, myself included.

One of my favorite female anime characters is Shinku from Rozen Maiden, who may be a 3 foot tall doll, but she can still kick your ass, and then make you brew her some tea.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

If you have problem with female characters than just pick what you want to watch, seriously, Highschool of the dead does not represent ANIME.

It represents a sizable part of anime, if not most of it. And let's face it, the misogynistic treatment and portrayal of females is deeply rooted in the genesis of Japan and it's not going anywhere just because a few 21st century Westerners take offense in it.

Now before most of you come charging with your favorite niche anime, remember I said most. Yes, a lot of anime doesn't necessarily fetichize women. I said most do.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

A lot of my favorite anime characters are female. Some include Madoka Kaname and Homura Akemi from Madoka Magica (Actually, all the main female characters from that show are great.) I also love Youko Nakajima from The Twelve Kingdoms, Kino from Kino's Journey, and Chihaya from Chihayafuru.

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?

I can't recall a worst example of fanservice, but I find Highschool of the Dead hilarious because it's so blatant. Well, there is Eiken, which for the longest time was the worst anime I've seen (before I saw School City Valanoir.) As for worst "waifu" characters, for me I always felt Kirino from OreImo was purely a "waifu" character because she's cute, a tsundere, and an otaku, and that's all there is to her. There's no reason for her to act like that other than to get "moe" points from the audience, at least that's what I see.

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?

Well, you gotta consider that even back in the 80s and 70s there were quite a bit of fanservice in shows. I think the only reason it looks like it's increasing is because there's more anime being released every year in general, so it's become more noticeable.

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Not really. One of my favorite series is the Monogatari series, which can get very fanservice-y, but it's able to back it up with good characters, story arcs, and character interactions. Kill la Kill is full of fanservice, but it also has a lot of good character and a good story. As long as they offer me something more than just TnA than I'm fine with it, or hell, if it's a good comedy I can sometimes give it a pass. It can get distracting at times, but fanserice alone never made me turn on a show.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

- Major Motoko Kusanagi (GitS), Misaki Kirihara (Darker than Black), all three main FLCL girls, Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop), Ryuuko Matoi & Satsuki Kiryuin (Kill la Kill), the list goes on...

- Pick any recent harem anime (or recent anime with harem tropes) and you're good to go. They're all fanservice-y garbage in that regard

- Increasing. It's all about merchandising and marketing to the lonely otaku crowd. It's fucking depressing, really

- Yes, it does. It's becoming a bigger and bigger aspect of the industry and will continue to grow as long as people keep fapping to the shit they put out.

This is why Fappy is my lover and possibly the father of my illegitimate god-child.

Like anything, taste in anime is dictated by what you look for.

I'll watch stuff like GitS, KLK, and Cowboy Bebop until the cows come home. Harems animes I could happily live without.

 

[Uriel_Hayabusa]

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

I urge you to check out Haibane Renmei - Most of the characters are female and there's some great character arcs and relationships, unique atmosphere and little to no fanservice.

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

I don't know if the waifu stuff is anymore harmful than the average guy magazine with gorgeous models, but I must admit that I don't exactly have much knowledge on the stuff. I will say, however, that I can't help but cringe when people criticize the way anime handles its female characters while gushing about how great American comics are about this.

 

[Ratty]

The long version: Look, I'm a guy so I feel I can't classify myself as a feminist despite agreeing with the main points of equality of genders. If being a guy invalidates some of my views sorry.

Why would being a guy invalidate your opinions? Feminism is about getting rid of a system that values one group of people over another.


As for the main question well...
I think anime is having a problem with an overabundance of fanservice and waifus because of the economics of anime in Japan. Instead of appealing to a large audience and making a reasonable amount of money airing the episodes, then selling the home video versions for a reasonable price. Apparently now the buisness model is to appeal to Otakus and sell the anime at a ridiculous mark up to make most of the money. Or so I've heard. Thus the increase in Otaku-bait.

My favorite women in anime. Hmmm in no particular order:

1. Slayers- First of all I love most of the characters in Slayers, it's a fun relaxing kind of franchise. And it's a franchise starring a female character, mostly shown from her perspective. There's a lot I could talk about but here's just a few of the reasons I like the female characters in the franchise.

Lina Inverse has a bit of a body image problem (she gets made fun of for being flat-chested) but for the most part this comes across like something an actual teenage girl would struggle with. And it's a funny contrast with how powerful she is- she can blow up a small city single-handedly but is overly sensitive about her bust size. Playing up the absurdity of worrying about something like that.

For contrast is Naga the Serpent, who is basically a walking punchline about fantasy art fanservice. Lina makes a remark the first time she sees her, something like "The evil sorceress look? Geez no one's dressed that way for centuries!" And Naga does things like accidentally poke herself with her ridiculous shoulder spikes when trying to cast a spell. Naga isn't that smart, or nearly as good at magic as Lina (though she thinks she is) but she does use her sex appeal as a distraction to get the upper hand on her enemies at times.

Both Lina and Naga are refreshingly morally grey characters. Unless they're getting paid/there's treasure to be had or the entire world is on the line they're just as likely to skip town to avoid a problem. In contrast Naga's sister Amelia is a lawful-stupid Paladin kind of character. Who frequently makes dramatic declarations about the importance of fighting for Truth! and Justice! before falling on her face. But never gives up on her pursuit of her ideals. Which is endearing in a lot of ways.

2. Meryl Stryfe and Milly Thompson from Trigun. I like them, they're cool.

3. Aisha Clan-Clan is my favorite character from Outlaw Star, which is one of my favorite shows, anime or otherwise. She's not too bright but she's funny, charming and incredibly strong.

4. Sir Integra[footnote]Sometimes pronounced "Integral" but usually just written and spoken as "Integra"[/footnote] Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing. Badass, cold as ice and, what can I say, very sexy. How can you not love the woman strong enough to be the master of the lord of the undead?

 

[Casual Shinji]

Meryl Stryfe and Milly Thompson from Trigun. I like them, they're cool.

I did always like Milly Thompson's design. It's very unconventional in the realm of anime, and it's just neat that she's this friendly giant type character. The scene where her giant gatling gun falls from underneath her coat and smashes a table into some guy's face always gets a laugh out of me.

Sir Integral Fairbrook Wingates Hellsing. Badass, cold as ice and, what can I say, very sexy. How can you not love the woman strong enough to be the master of the lord of the undead?

I remember watching the Hellsing OVA's for the first time and thinking she was a guy. And I agree she's kinda sexy in a weird gender confusing way.

 

[SckizoBoy]

I urge you to check out Haibane Renmei - Most of the characters are female and there's some great character arcs and relationships, unique atmosphere and little to no fanservice.

Bugger... here, I was going to come in here and sing that series' praises... watched a couple eps the other day, remembered why I think it's one of the best things to come out of Japan... Reki and Rakka's overlapping descent and salvation being very well written with plenty of impact despite it being such an insular show.

Anyway... usurped answer notwithstanding...

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?

Ehm... aside from Reki/Rakka... uh...

Kusaribe Hakaze (Zetsuen no Tempest) - powerful, snarky and quite manipulative... and that's when she's imprisoned (basically) (Fuwa Aika from the same series qualifies as well).
Celty Sturluson (Durarara!!) - no-one else could be this sexy without a head... a mediator of sorts among a bunch of complete and utter psychos...
Izumi Curtis (FMA) - actually a fair chunk of the female cast from this series could qualify, but I like Izumi best (perhaps alongside Olivier Armstrong) for being capable of scaring the crap out of Ed.
Balsa (Seirei no Moribito) - she's got quite a figure, but damn, she's hands down the best close-combat fighter in the series and her clothes hide a lot of injuries, and her struggle with her maternal instincts make her one of the best action-women in anime (along with aforementioned Izumi).

*shrug* That'll do for now?

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?

To echo Fappy... just pick any recent harem series and off you go...

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?

Can't really say, but given the proliferation of anime in most parts of the world, the trend would be that it's increasing, unfortunately... because the shit sells and it's not really the anime itself, but the surrounding products... dakimakura, I'm looking at you... >_>

-Does anime have an issue with waifu charcters and fanservice?

Again, can't really say... I hope not and I'd like to say 'no', given my own taste in anime *points at aforementioned series* (other series I enjoy: RahXePhon, Ergo Proxy, Gunslinger Girl, Kurau Phantom Memory, Girls und Panzer...!!), but there're still a shedload of releases each season of typically recycled garbage that usually pertains to some contrivance of a harem or a lineup of girls that otakus declare eternal devotion to, before the next Yukari Tamura voiced character appears... ¬_¬

 

[GundamSentinel]

-What are some very good female characters in anime and why?
I'll second Major Kusanagi and characters from Miyazaki films. And I'll add Marida Cruz from Gundam UC. It's hard for me to even describe how much I like her character. Her life's been shit, she knows she'll go through more shit, but remains such a likable character. Also, Gundam UC knows how to do fanservice right: with more mechs.

-What are some of the worst examples of fanservice or "waifu" characters and why?
Generally, I try to avoid anime with heavy fanservice. An anime that has to resort to that usually has some other flaws as well.

-Do you think that fanservice and waifu characters are increasing or decreasing and why?
I honestly have no idea, but if I had to guess, it mostly stays the same. This really isn't a new thing. Anime keeps expanding, and fanservice with it.

-Does anime have an issue with waifu characters and fanservice?
No more than other media. Maybe more explicit in anime than in other media, but it's the same deal. If it sells, people will continue to make it, and I don't have a problem with it. I really don't mind waifu anime existing, I just don't watch it.