Anita Sarkeesian "I'm not a fan of gaming" leaked 2010 video reveals

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BloatedGuppy

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face_head_mouth said:
There are no minimum requirements for being a gamer or a feminist,
but the more you know, the better, because someone is going to call
you out when you make a mistake or misrepresent something.

The biggest problem is that (and please correct me if I'm wrong, because
I haven't sat down and watched Anita's videos, except for the first one
in the series) Anita is probably taking on too big of topic. It might have
been better if she had limited her study to either a specific time period
(the current console generation, maybe) and/or a specific genre (fighting games,
for instance) and gone on from there. Maybe she should have only picked a handful
of games to focus on, and dedicated a single video to each. The wider you cast
your net, the less attention you can give to any one game or period, and the
more generalized your commentary is going to be.
I've only seen one video and parts of one other myself. Aside from being appalled at the shirt she chose to wear (you had almost $200,000! Put on a decent suit!) I found the whole thing to be very Feminism 101. As in, I cannot understand why feminists would find it particularly interesting, or why gamers would find it particularly outrageous. Frankly the Sturm und Drang around the whole thing both confuses and bemuses me.
 

kaioshade

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BloatedGuppy said:
kaioshade said:
Earning the ire of MANY gamers, and the general population at large, she then launched a Kickstarter proposal for a series of video about tropes and women in video games.
ROFL...wut!? Citation needed. I actually can't stop laughing.

Slightly on topic, and serious question for anyone posting in this thread to consider...

How long must one be gaming for to earn the "gamer" title? Do you need to play particular games? How many? Does how long one has been gaming, or the breadth/type of titles one has played, make one's opinions on any and all subjects concerning gaming more valid/weighty?

Same questions re: feminism. Does one need to have studied feminism in depth in order to have opinions on feminism and/or topics concerning it? How deep/academic must that study be?
No need to laugh. Honestly, i dont have any direct citations, except my experiences browsing general forums, youtube videos, etc. Even many people who usually dont even consider temselves gamers have thrown their disdain for her into the pile. Websites not even dedicated to gaming have reported and commented negatively about her efforts. So maybe using "at large" may have not been the best choice of words, she has definitely rattled more than just a few gamers cages.
 

infinity_turtles

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Didn't this thread get closed recently because the mods didn't want to have to watch this and the Critical Miss thread? Coulda sworn it did.

Maiev Shadowsong said:
It's one huge disgusting circle jerk of opinion shouting.
Be fair, it's like two or three moderately large circle-jerks that make a real sticky mess whenever they meet up and go at it.

Captcha: good riddance

Who's leaving?
 

AuronFtw

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shrekfan246 said:
But seriously, everyone who bitches about her because of reasons? Realize that you're only giving her more power and legitimizing the concerns that she has brought up about sexism in the industry/community.
No... they're really not. They're bitching about her because she's a delusional quasi-feminist with no arguments of her own, inventing problems where no problems exist and trying to claim that every female in every video game ever is a negative stereotype for one reason or an other, even when they clearly are not. She defeats her own arguments just fine without outside help.

The only thing that will "solve" the problem of females in games not being represented more evenly will be more female developers making games. There are already a fair amount, and more will come in time. We know they can do it, and even great titles like Portal came from them. They don't need affirmative action, they just need to shut the hell up and make some great games, and it won't be a problem anymore. Trying to force people to stop producing what they produce is counterproductive; only by broadening the horizons of gamers and publishers alike by introducing more, successful games with great female characters crafted by great female designers will "fix the industry." Forcing a male-dominated industry to arbitrarily include 50% more female dialog or 50% less breast physics will only hurt the games that already exist, not introduce anything new or groundbreaking for female equality.

If Anita gave even half a shit, she'd spend the money she gouged out of retarded kickstarter people and use it to fund a game with a strong female protagonist just to show the world it can be done (you know, because she ignores all the times it's already been done; they're all damsels in distress or some other negative stereotype, even when they're strong, smart, capable and independent).
 

DarthSka

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Desert Punk said:
Trilligan said:
Desert Punk said:
Her central arguments arent on trial here
Exactly, because this is an ad hominem argument.

There is literally no reason to talk about Sarkeesian as a person. The only reason anyone does so is to discredit her. And the reason they're trying to discredit her is because they don't like her argument. The fact that they try to combat her argument with an assault on her personage makes this entire line of inquiry ad hominem, and therefore unworthy of anybody's time.

I'm disappointed that the mods didn't leave this locked. There's really nothing but flames to be gained here.
Except that is not the case, it is completely possible to divorce someones person from their work.

You can find Orson Scott Card's "Enders Game" to be an amazing book while finding him a reprehensible person

You can find Phil Fish's "Fez" A revolutionary new take on the platformer, while finding him a racist asshole.

You can find Michael Bay's "Transformers" to be absolute shite, but find him to be an ok person.

To me it just seems like people have no way to respond to a discussion about Anita's person without seeing it as an underhanded attack on her work. If I wanted to pick her work apart I would do so, but that base is already covered over and over again. I am more interested in talking about her.
Desert Punk neatly sums up my feelings on this matter. When it comes to Sarkeesian, I usually consider her arguments to be "much ado about nothing" (her Christmas songs video comes to mind), with some reasonable points here and there. Right here though, we have a clear contradiction on her part. One video saying she's not a fan of games, while starting in 2012, she pushed the idea that she's been a fan of games her whole life. That point just doesn't seem debatable, and it my opinion, does bring her credibility into question on some level.

However, this should not be used to simply toss her opinions off to the side as if they are completely invalid now. Her arguments and points should be analyzed, discussed, and critiqued for what they themselves say, not what she said in an unrelated situation years ago. Even if she isn't a gamer as some suspect, she still could have done the research she needed to do to present her opinion. So while this video can be seen as a red flag, you can't use it to say she's wrong about her ideas with such absolution.
 

mysecondlife

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Honestly, if person is not a fan of video-game yet notices the positive potential videogames can have, its all I can ask for.

I never cared for her and I still don't after watching this video.
 

Grach

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Considering the term gaming and gamer is something very contested (some say it's meaningless, others claim that you can't be a true gamer if you don't like X), there's a million ways this could be interpreted. Besides, the video tries to make it look like she doesn't like gaming in general, whereas she states that she loves games but doesn't want to go shooting people all day (I bet theres a lot of you who prefer that at least from time to time).

Not that I need this video to think low of her (I already did and don't really care about the video one way or another).
 

Nokturos

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So that ***** we all knew was a fraudulent idiot turned out to be a fraud? I for one would like to thank detective Stephen Hawking for making that video and informing us all of this breaking news story.
 

IllumInaTIma

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Feb 6, 2012
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Ok, I have just one thing to say about that whole Sarkeesian debate and in my opinion I really do agree with what Zhukov once said.
You may question her methods.
You may question her credibility.
You may question her goal.
BUT, if you really think that there is no problem in the way female characters are portrayed in gaming then you're either blind or know jackshit about characterization.
If all that ruckus will result in increased awareness and developers putting more effort and thought into the female characterization then we all will be better off!
That's it.
 

DrOswald

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kaioshade said:
Here is another view about the Let's Play video debate. When a user uploads a Let's Play video, since they do not own the copyright to the IP in question, the video is considered fair use. Even if Anita did use the footage without notifying the uploader, she really was not legally obligated to. So slightly tacky? yes. Wrong? no.
Well, I think I would actually say that it was wrong. Just because you broke no law does not mean you are faultless. After all, it is not illegal to be a jackass but that doesn't make it right.

That said, I do think tacky is the word to describe it. If I had a friend who did the same thing I would tell them to stop being a jackass and give credit where it is deserved, but it wouldn't be a big thing.

As for the original topic, I really don't care about Anita. I have watched one of her videos and I wasn't really impressed at her arguments, but whatever. If she wants to say things on the internet then she should go right ahead.

But if she was claiming that she was a life long gamer and is not then there is a bit of a problem there. In fact, I would say there are two big problems there.

The first is the more important one: When Anita made her kickstarter she made the basic claim that she is both an expert on video games and on issues of feminism. She asked for money so she could do what she is doing now. To establish her expertise she made certain claims about herself being a gamer. If, in fact, she is not an expert on video games, if her claim was false, then she is basically a con artist. She lied in order to get money from people.

That is IF she lied. I really don't care enough to comb through her history to find out if she lied, but I did check out her kickstarter and she never claimed to be a life long gamer. She only claimed to be a gamer. It is possible that, if she really isn't part of the gaming community at large, she did not understand the connotations that "gamer" has. She may have thought along the lines of "I play games, therefore I am a gamer" and did not understand that to the gaming community "gamer" means much more than simply a person who plays games. It is equally possible that she was not a life long gamer but had really gotten into the scene over a two year period (easily enough time to go from non gamer to hardcore gamer.)

Last of all, if she ever did claim to be a life long gamer it is still possible that she simply did not understand what that means to the gaming community. Within the community "life long gamer" implies a life style and a huge background knowledge in gaming. An outsider is unlikely to understand this and the claim may have been made in good faith without fully understanding the implication.

The second problem is how this impacts her credibility and the legitimacy of the views she expresses in her videos. And before anyone says that this is an ad hominem argument, lets actually think about that. The issues of feminism and how it relates to gaming are highly subjective. There are no direct measurements that can be made to determine if a work is sexist and why. It is something that must be determined by a judgement call. And while anyone can make that judgement call only an expert can make the judgement call with authority. She can make all the arguments she wants but each piece of evidence she presents again comes down to another judgement call.

If I remember correctly the first video she made was about the damsel in distress trope. The question centered around this trope is if it is sexist for a man to save a woman from danger. Obviously it is not always sexist for this to happen, so Anita looks for specific examples and makes a series of judgement calls. She has arguments, but even her evidence always boils down to her making a judgement call based on the authority that her status as an expert grants her. Her status as an expert is the basis for her entire argument. Or at least it is the basis of why she should be taken any more seriously than, for example, any random 4chan poster.

Since Anita is claiming expert authority, calling into question the truth of that claim is a legitimate counterpoint to her arguments. If, in fact, Anita is not a gamer then it greatly weakens her claim as an expert.

It is like an expert witness in a legal situation. Sometimes an expert witness is called and a claim is made based on their authority as an expert. For example, an expert witness may be used to establish that a defendant is insane. The expert may cite sources, give evidence, etc. but ultimately in a case like establishing insanity it comes down to a person making a judgement call based on their authority as an expert. In this situation an attempt to prove the individual is not an expert is not an ad hominem argument because the legitimacy of the expert is the basis of the evidence presented.

TLDR:

"Anita is a ****, this is why..." is ad hominem.

"Anita is not an expert, this is why..." is not ad hominem.
 

BloatedGuppy

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DrOswald said:
"Anita is not an expert, this is why..." is not ad hominem.
How on earth would you establish someone's credentials as an "expert" in video games? What if she took it up in 2010? As I asked earlier in the thread, how many games does one need to play before they qualify as a "gamer"? Which types of games?

I mean, I've been gaming for a long goddam time. Does that make me an "expert" in the field? If I speak on the subject, should everyone listen, or take my word as gospel?

I'd say given the nature of her critiques, its her background in feminist theory that should be under the microscope. The things she's critiquing are pretty bog standard narrative devices. I'd think anyone with even a mild history of reading or watching films could easily make the same critiques and have them more or less be on the nose. It's not like gaming doesn't borrow liberally from both when establishing narrative structure.

If she'd made a bunch of videos about game play mechanics and how and why they should be changed, then her "gaming expertise" would be more relevant, although I still have no idea how anyone is meant to establish "gaming expertise" outside of being a developer. And most gamers are quick enough to throw THEM under the bus as well when they try to weigh in on how games should be designed.
 

Frostbyte666

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I don't have an issue with her using LP footage as long as she credits the people who took the original video, it's called referencing and is important, as most people who have been through school and written essays know. If you don't cite your sources that's called plagiarism, which destroys credibility even if the points raised are valid, because we don't know if it's your work or taken from someone else's. If she failed to source 1 aspect of her work, though minor, it raises the question has she also failed to source other more major parts of her (or someone else's) work?

Maybe the best people to ask about the LP sourcing decorum are Jim and a few others who have clips of videogames in their shows, is it their own data gathering or are they taking pieces of others work for a short clip and if so do they give those people credit?

More on topic if she lies outside of her work it's going to make me trust her facts a lot less within her work.
 

kaioshade

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BloatedGuppy said:
DrOswald said:
"Anita is not an expert, this is why..." is not ad hominem.
How on earth would you establish someone's credentials as an "expert" in video games? What if she took it up in 2010? As I asked earlier in the thread, how many games does one need to play before they qualify as a "gamer"? Which types of games?

I mean, I've been gaming for a long goddam time. Does that make me an "expert" in the field? If I speak on the subject, should everyone listen, or take my word as gospel?
I cant speak for everyone, but i would be more likely to take your word over hers, as since you have been gaming for quite a bit longer (you didnt give an exact number, but i assume its more than her at this point) you will most likely have a broader perspective and knowledge than someone who has been gaming for only a few years.
 

Verlander

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You don't need to be a fan of something to critique it. Pointless thread.

Internet teenagers... stop hating on Sarkeesian. Every time you do, you prove her a little more right by the ineptitude of your bumbling attacks
 

James Crook

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I wanted to forget altogether about this fraud of a person. Thanks a lot for making yet another thread about her, fellow Escapians.

And to those yelling "ad hominem! ad hominem!". Please, folks. She deliberately set herself up as a "lifelong gamer". People say she didn't capture the footage in her videos or play the game her Kickstarter campaign allowed her to buy (along with a new car from what I've heard).

Yes, she IS right to address things such as the "woman in distress" trope and other such things in videogames ? even though she gave an entirely bs, convoluted explanation for it instead of just saying the writers suck/are lazy/aren't writers but needed a reason for the protagonist to set out on an epic quest.

I'm all for someone commenting on how lazy and lousy the writing is in recent games, especially since writers seem to like using bog standard plot devices and taking a few pages out movies, comics, and books. But you can't help but feel something's off.
 

BloatedGuppy

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kaioshade said:
I cant speak for everyone, but i would be more likely to take your word over hers, as since you have been gaming for quite a bit longer (you didnt give an exact number, but i assume its more than her at this point) you will most likely have a broader perspective and knowledge than someone who has been gaming for only a few years.
Validation at last! I'm going to lord it over all of you now, filthy casuals! My word is writ!

And for reference, I've been gaming for longer than Anita has been alive. Still doesn't make me a "gaming authority". It just makes me old. And consequently, cranky as fuck.