Another thing about female game characters...

[Realitycrash]

The problem generally stems from a decision that the game requires a female character. If a character happens to be female without it being her defining feature it tends to get taken more seriously both in appearance and personality. A few examples that come to mind:

Spoiler: Agrias Oaks (Final Fantasy Tactics)

Spoiler: Sylvanas Windrunner (Warcraft)

Spoiler: Naija (Aquaria)

Seriously? Sylvana? You take the fucking Banshee-porn-queen as an example? With her cleavage and "Let's fight the Lich King wearing hotpants and a tanktop!" as a good example?
(And yes, she's wearing pants in that picture, but there are others..)

No, being a Ranger-general isn't her defining element, not judging from those pictures.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Yes, men get objectified too, for sure. The muscle-bound thing is certainly getting old. But honestly, that falls under the very, very large category of cliches in general, which are always annoying. It's just so damn lazy. "Do we need to put much thought or effort into the character design?" "Nah, just do what everyone else does. So what if we could make a game that's unique and interesting to play? Just 'cos we can doesn't mean we should." No, in this case you definitely should.

But my original point was really specifically about fighting stance, and functionality. Men in games may be objectified/idealised as much as the women, but at least when they are fighting they look like they are fighting, and not like they're auditioning for softcore porn.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Wardrobe-malfunction or not, she's a mage, and mages tend to wear silly clothes. You could give her whatever clothes you wanted, you know. And she's a shapeshifter, so she usually doesn't spend all her time as a human, making her ignore somewhat what she wears (or so I figure).

Miranda has a tight, slim outfit that looks a bit silly compared to the armor the males get, sure, but I'v seen far worse in space-games.

Yeah, but strenght and bodymass-muscles is how the western world usually vies male sex-appeal. Astaroth is an exception, as he is a monster, but otherwise you can get any of the male protagonists (Muzugi-crap-forgot-his-name, Nightmare, Sigfried, etc) half-naked and show their ripped body and perfect facial-features and hair without any armor.

See, those are just excuses for Bioware, IMO. If they didn't want to design Morrigan as a sex object, they should have designed her with clothes that someone might actually wear. Same with Miranda, and there's really no excuse for the gratuitous ass shots there, either.

The issue with the muscle mass is that the sex appeal from muscles is incidental - the concept behind, say, Kratos was not "let's give him big muscles so women will love him," it was "let's give him big muscles so he looks strong." The sex appeal for Ivy, on the other hand, is the purpose of the character design.

Eh, Morrigan has some pretty decent clothing, really. It doesn't reveal too much, she doesn't have a huge cleavage and she has pants!

Incidental or not, it is there. And it bugs the crap out of me at times. I eat nothing but healthy food and I work out four days a week, and have been for a long time. I sure as hell am not sporting the same kind of muscles as those guys are.
I'm aware that we are supposed to be playing idealized concepts, but it's equally crappy for both sexes. Atleast in this instance. There are endless examples of other games were women got it worse, especially when it comes to outfits.
Men, though, always tend to be the rugged-yet-handsome muscle-ripped supermen that we normal people can only become in our dreams. So don't say men aren't treated as objects too.

Spoiler: Can you really say this doesnt reveal too much and doesn't have a huge cleavage with a straight face?

I mean seriously, Morrigan literally puts on clothes to have sex.

Action games are generally made for a male audience, so male characters are more likely to be a power fantasy than a sexual fantasy. Some women/men like men with big muscles, but those women/men aren't the target audience for games like God of War - young straight men are.

Spoiler: This is a male character with big muscles depicted as a sexual fantasy.

Spoiler: And this is a male character with big muscles designed as a power fantasy.

 

[Katana314]

Look, until people tell the devs that they want better female characters, they are just going to keep giving us fanservice. As a woman, I personally hate it. I love playing as both male and female characters, but I almost always choose male just so I don't have to stare at some *****'s thong clad ass the entire game.

As a man, this is pretty much one of the reasons I usually avoid playing females in non-Bioware RPGs and other games. I find them far too silly and far too distracting. It's like trying to play Soul Calibur as Ivy.

(Ivy image)

I mean..Uh..It's like...Wait, what was I doing now again?

Oh, right. Distraction.

Ivy was my best character in Soul Calibur 2, but I could only stand playing as her with the formal-looking blue attire. Seriously, I would rather see a scantily-clad GUY than that shit. In the later games when all her outfits are really sexual, I stopped playing.

 

[Realitycrash]

Look, until people tell the devs that they want better female characters, they are just going to keep giving us fanservice. As a woman, I personally hate it. I love playing as both male and female characters, but I almost always choose male just so I don't have to stare at some *****'s thong clad ass the entire game.

As a man, this is pretty much one of the reasons I usually avoid playing females in non-Bioware RPGs and other games. I find them far too silly and far too distracting. It's like trying to play Soul Calibur as Ivy.

(Ivy image)

I mean..Uh..It's like...Wait, what was I doing now again?

Oh, right. Distraction.

Ivy was my best character in Soul Calibur 2, but I could only stand playing as her with the formal-looking blue attire. Seriously, I would rather see a scantily-clad GUY than that shit. In the later games when all her outfits are really sexual, I stopped playing.

Same. Taki is one of my favorit characters, but in SC2, it's impossible to play her in her red ninja-outfit without laughing. Her breasts are huge and bounce/jiggle all over the place. She's basically wearing a red nylon-sock over her entire body. I always changed costume.

 

[Realitycrash]

Wardrobe-malfunction or not, she's a mage, and mages tend to wear silly clothes. You could give her whatever clothes you wanted, you know. And she's a shapeshifter, so she usually doesn't spend all her time as a human, making her ignore somewhat what she wears (or so I figure).

Miranda has a tight, slim outfit that looks a bit silly compared to the armor the males get, sure, but I'v seen far worse in space-games.

Yeah, but strenght and bodymass-muscles is how the western world usually vies male sex-appeal. Astaroth is an exception, as he is a monster, but otherwise you can get any of the male protagonists (Muzugi-crap-forgot-his-name, Nightmare, Sigfried, etc) half-naked and show their ripped body and perfect facial-features and hair without any armor.

See, those are just excuses for Bioware, IMO. If they didn't want to design Morrigan as a sex object, they should have designed her with clothes that someone might actually wear. Same with Miranda, and there's really no excuse for the gratuitous ass shots there, either.

The issue with the muscle mass is that the sex appeal from muscles is incidental - the concept behind, say, Kratos was not "let's give him big muscles so women will love him," it was "let's give him big muscles so he looks strong." The sex appeal for Ivy, on the other hand, is the purpose of the character design.

Eh, Morrigan has some pretty decent clothing, really. It doesn't reveal too much, she doesn't have a huge cleavage and she has pants!

Incidental or not, it is there. And it bugs the crap out of me at times. I eat nothing but healthy food and I work out four days a week, and have been for a long time. I sure as hell am not sporting the same kind of muscles as those guys are.
I'm aware that we are supposed to be playing idealized concepts, but it's equally crappy for both sexes. Atleast in this instance. There are endless examples of other games were women got it worse, especially when it comes to outfits.
Men, though, always tend to be the rugged-yet-handsome muscle-ripped supermen that we normal people can only become in our dreams. So don't say men aren't treated as objects too.

Spoiler: Can you really say this doesnt reveal too much and doesn't have a huge cleavage with a straight face?

I mean seriously, Morrigan literally puts on clothes to have sex.

Action games are generally made for a male audience, so male characters are more likely to be a power fantasy than a sexual fantasy. Some women/men like men with big muscles, but those women/men aren't the target audience for games like God of War - young straight men are.

Spoiler: This is a male character with big muscles depicted as a sexual fantasy.

Spoiler: And this is a male character with big muscles designed as a power fantasy.

I CAN say that with a straight face, simply because she is the only woman in the game that doesn't have DD-size knockers. Look at that picture, she looks almost natural, compared to any other woman in the game whose armor struggle to contain their gargantuan bosom.
Her outfit is just poorly matched (though I find it rather cool-looking), but she's by far one of the least sexualised.

True, it might be more powerfantasy than sexual, doesn't mean that the western-ideal for men today are ripped muscles and a tall stature. It might be coincidental, hell it probably is, but it doesn't send a very good message to young folks (or older folks, for that) playing the game. Same goes for women, and how they are depicted.
In my mind, powerfantasy and sexual-fantasy is equally bad.

I actually like the No More Heroes approach of making the protagonist look somewhat normal, even geeky. Though he is a total tool.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I CAN say that with a straight face, simply because she is the only woman in the game that doesn't have DD-size knockers. Look at that picture, she looks almost natural, compared to any other woman in the game whose armor struggle to contain their gargantuan bosom.
Her outfit is just poorly matched (though I find it rather cool-looking), but she's by far one of the least sexualised.

Haha, considering that Dragon Age Origins women all share a model, you'll have to forgive me for taking that one with a grain of salt. The Morrigan = non-sexualized argument doesn't hold water.

In my mind, powerfantasy and sexual-fantasy is equally bad.

Now that's a more reasonable argument, IMO. I'm not sure I agree, but I see where you're coming from.

 

[Ghengis John]

Aside from the usual complaints about lame, stereotyped, underwritten female characters in games, there is one thing that really, really, really, really, really p-sses me off: Ever noticed how in RPGs, fighting games, and other games where characters stand in some kind of fighting stance for extended periods, the men always stand as if they're in a boxing ring or a battlefield, while the women always - and I mean ALWAYS, invariably - stand as if they're on a catwalk. Unless there's some well-kept secret of the martial arts that makes it practical to stand with all your weight on one leg, one hip higher than the other, your chest stuck out, no guard of any kind, and pouting... this needs to stop right now.

Outfits suffer from the same problem. There's nothing wrong with women wearing high heels, but during a fight? Or dangerous adventure in some wilderness or dungeon?

I'm not normally one to point at a convention and say "that's unrealistic!!" but when it's so obviously linked to gender stereotypes, and so f---ing patronising, it really does annoy me.

Does anyone else have this issue or is it just me?

Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Tekken, Dead or Alive, Darkstalkers etc. you really want to single out women not being realistic when there's a clusterfuck of shit that's not real in the game. Saying that their stance or what they wear is wrong want do you want to have on traditional fighting garb they'll make them generic. The girls are suppose to stand out in a way and IF you really played fighting games you'll notice most female characters have legit fighting stances. Plus remember it's a game please quit shoehorning realism when there's people that can shoot fireballs from their hands. Also you have to think about what if the character WANTS to wear the sexy clothing or using the funny stance that you deem as wrong. It doesn't matter when you're picking up teeth of the pavement does it.

I'm with the dood. Seriously your issue is silly. You're harping about realism in a genre where characters can jump 12 feet in the air and run on the sky. I'd also point out most series have similarly ridiculous male fighters who can't show up without torn clothes, will use stylish poses or act comically ridiculous. Furthermore most female fighters do have actual fighting stances, even in games like dead or alive that love to emphasize sex appeal. And every series has it's token traditionalist who shows up in real martial arts garb. I don't know what inspired this tyrade but you need to spend more time playing a series other than fighting angels or rumble roses.

See, those are just excuses for Bioware, IMO. If they didn't want to design Morrigan as a sex object, they should have designed her with clothes that someone might actually wear. Same with Miranda, and there's really no excuse for the gratuitous ass shots there, either.

Actually you're overlooking that both of these women are not above using their looks to get their way. I'm not saying my head wouldn't whip around at the first indication that Morriggan had sneezed, but that's what she wants.

The issue with the muscle mass is that the sex appeal from muscles is incidental - the concept behind, say, Kratos was not "let's give him big muscles so women will love him," it was "let's give him big muscles so he looks strong." The sex appeal for Ivy, on the other hand, is the purpose of the character design.

Please there is no reason for shen woo to run around like this:

Spoiler

Other than a blatant attempt at pandering. Maybe it doesn't happen as much but it does happen.

 

[Gigano]

Well, there's only as much - or rather as little - problem in having fictional women being feminine in behaviour and appearance as there is having fictional men being masculine.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Actually I can one up that ridiculousness. In Global Agenda, players are basically super soldiers in high tech suits. One of the classes is essentially the heavy from TF2, a big burly guy or gal with a minigun or a bomb launcher. The female version of this assault based class wears cybernetic armor that has high heels. There are built in armored battle high heels. Whats more is that even among the multiple types of armor you can put on, they all have high heels. Whoever decided on that character model decision needs to be shot.

 

[Mordwyl]

Seriously? Sylvana? You take the fucking Banshee-porn-queen as an example? With her cleavage and "Let's fight the Lich King wearing hotpants and a tanktop!" as a good example?
(And yes, she's wearing pants in that picture, but there are others..)

No, being a Ranger-general isn't her defining element, not judging from those pictures.

Actually, yes. She IS attractive, but not to the point where that's all the character is made for. Her original attire consists of ranger leather armour which they all wear, even the males.

Of course, another good example would be Maiev Shadowsong, if that suits your fancies.

 

[Metaphysic]

Anyone who finds SC's Ivy attractive needs to have their eyes checked.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I a woman and I like my character to look pretty or sexy. It's nice and makes me feel like im playing a girl rather than a copy pasted guy model with boobs. I agree there is a line to be drawn at 'gratuitous token female to attract men to the game' and 'real' female character but I'd say it's leaning towards the 'real' character side nowadays. Some Japanese games developers have a little way to go it seems.

I don't want to play a character who looks butch or I would play a guy. :|

Spoiler: This is my Shepard and my FalloutNV character they aren't exactly bruisers.

As for the sexy clothing I raised the issue on the Skyrim facebook and most women wanted feminine armour while the men were complaining that everything should look realistic.

Slaying a dragon in a fur bikini just means I'm 20% cooler, both figuratively and literally

(Oh and first time I heard about the character 'Hides his eyes' I believe I was in Desele's House of Earthly Delights in Suran. That strikes me as amusing...)

There are built in armored battle high heels. Whats more is that even among the multiple types of armor you can put on, they all have high heels. Whoever decided on that character model decision needs to be shot.

A guy attacked me at a taxi rank and I slew his crotch with my stilletos. Don't underestimate them. (Nearly got thrown in prison the next day but the CCtv backed me up. le phew)

 

[Pedro The Hutt]

Ivy was my best character in Soul Calibur 2, but I could only stand playing as her with the formal-looking blue attire. Seriously, I would rather see a scantily-clad GUY than that shit. In the later games when all her outfits are really sexual, I stopped playing.

And that's just one of many reasons why the original Soul Calibur is still the best in the whole darn series. Ivy's main outfit was sexy without it being over the top.

 

[Stall]

You know? I came to this thread expecting something interesting, but then was let down when I realized it was yet another person on the internet bitching about how females get dressed up in games (I always get a white knight vibe from posts like this... heh). Nothing new added to an already tired and trite argument. It's just the same "LOL THIS IS UNREALISTIC AND SEXIST" argument. It wasn't even insightful, since there are no examples, and I can name a good handful of counter-examples totally nullifying your point.

Dear god... don't you have anything better to do? Or at least add something more interesting or substantial to the argument than complain about unrealistic clothing in shit that isn't supposed to be realistic in the slightest? I guess that's what I get for expecting something new and interesting.

Oh, by the way, you can curse on the internet. The morality police aren't going to break down your door and arrest you for saying "fuck" on the internet.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Aside from the usual complaints about lame, stereotyped, underwritten female characters in games, there is one thing that really, really, really, really, really p-sses me off: Ever noticed how in RPGs, fighting games, and other games where characters stand in some kind of fighting stance for extended periods, the men always stand as if they're in a boxing ring or a battlefield, while the women always - and I mean ALWAYS, invariably - stand as if they're on a catwalk. Unless there's some well-kept secret of the martial arts that makes it practical to stand with all your weight on one leg, one hip higher than the other, your chest stuck out, no guard of any kind, and pouting... this needs to stop right now.

Outfits suffer from the same problem. There's nothing wrong with women wearing high heels, but during a fight? Or dangerous adventure in some wilderness or dungeon?

I'm not normally one to point at a convention and say "that's unrealistic!!" but when it's so obviously linked to gender stereotypes, and so f---ing patronising, it really does annoy me.

Does anyone else have this issue or is it just me?

Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Tekken, Dead or Alive, Darkstalkers etc. you really want to single out women not being realistic when there's a clusterfuck of shit that's not real in the game. Saying that their stance or what they wear is wrong want do you want to have on traditional fighting garb they'll make them generic. The girls are suppose to stand out in a way and IF you really played fighting games you'll notice most female characters have legit fighting stances. Plus remember it's a game please quit shoehorning realism when there's people that can shoot fireballs from their hands. Also you have to think about what if the character WANTS to wear the sexy clothing or using the funny stance that you deem as wrong. It doesn't matter when you're picking up teeth of the pavement does it.

I'm with the dood. Seriously your issue is silly. You're harping about realism in a genre where characters can jump 12 feet in the air and run on the sky. I'd also point out most series have similarly ridiculous male fighters who can't show up without torn clothes, will use stylish poses or act comically ridiculous. Furthermore most female fighters do have actual fighting stances, even in games like dead or alive that love to emphasize sex appeal. And every series has it's token traditionalist who shows up in real martial arts garb. I don't know what inspired this tyrade but you need to spend more time playing a series other than fighting angels or rumble roses.

See, those are just excuses for Bioware, IMO. If they didn't want to design Morrigan as a sex object, they should have designed her with clothes that someone might actually wear. Same with Miranda, and there's really no excuse for the gratuitous ass shots there, either.

Actually you're overlooking that both of these women are not above using their looks to get their way. I'm not saying my head wouldn't whip around at the first indication that Morriggan had sneezed, but that's what she wants.

The issue with the muscle mass is that the sex appeal from muscles is incidental - the concept behind, say, Kratos was not "let's give him big muscles so women will love him," it was "let's give him big muscles so he looks strong." The sex appeal for Ivy, on the other hand, is the purpose of the character design.

Please there is no reason for shen woo to run around like this:

Spoiler

Other than a blatant attempt at pandering. Maybe it doesn't happen as much but it does happen.

As I keep saying, my problem is not with the lack of realism alone. I am complaining about lack of realism under VERY SPECIFIC circumstances.

The lack of realism involved in characters jumping 12 feet and throwing fireballs has the purpose of making these characters into over-the-top super-hero type badasses, and that's great. The lack of realism involved in making the women dress and move like supermodels when they're meant to be fighting blatantly has the purpose of making the female characters hot so teenagers can pause the game and have a wank every now and then. That's what I find insulting. (Granted, it's less of an issue when the guys are the same as in some games).

 

[Hides His Eyes]

You know? I came to this thread expecting something interesting, but then was let down when I realized it was yet another person on the internet bitching about how females get dressed up in games (I always get a white knight vibe from posts like this... heh). Nothing new added to an already tired and trite argument. It's just the same "LOL THIS IS UNREALISTIC AND SEXIST" argument. It wasn't even insightful, since there are no examples, and I can name a good handful of counter-examples totally nullifying your point.

Dear god... don't you have anything better to do? Or at least add something more interesting or substantial to the argument than complain about unrealistic clothing in shit that isn't supposed to be realistic in the slightest? I guess that's what I get for expecting something new and interesting.

Oh, by the way, you can curse on the internet. The morality police aren't going to break down your door and arrest you for saying "fuck" on the internet.

Well excuse me for thinking this is an issue still worthy of discussion, since it still happens in games and many people still have a problem with it. I didn't realise it had gone out of fashion and become "tired and trite". Please could you point me to a list of issues that are current enough to keep you entertained so I don't make the same mistake again?

Seriously though, if you're not interested then just say so, there's not point telling me that *I* shouldn't be concerned with it, because I am. And so are other people.

And I censored some swear words earlier because I have been asked to on other forums and didn't know what people's views were here.