Any archers/bowmen here? What do you think about this?

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Guffe

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I just saw this small clip on Youtube about a Danish archer who presumably has trained himself in the ways of "ancient" archers, before the gunpowder.
It's a short and pretty interesting clip, and he's really good.


So any archers around?
Thoughts on the video?
What level of archery are you doing, just a hobby or competitive (ever tried a bow and arrow)?

Personally I've tried to shoot a bow a few times, I'd say I'm better with a gun, but I've had more practice with it also :p
 

Albino Boo

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I used to use bow along time ago and they are fun to play about with but not so much fun that I kept using one. The video is a bit of nonsense to be honest. If you got that close to someone with bow they only need run forward and stick something sharp into you. Bows were used as skirmishing weapons with some of the tricks he uses but from horseback or from a chariot, not on foot. Archers on foot tended to use mass fire against an area target rather than aimed at individual targets.
 

SckizoBoy

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Yeah, seen that vid and the guy's pretty awesome.

However, it's a sign of the times concerning the sport that is archery these days. The means suit the purposes (not disagreeing with anything he said, merely reinforcing) given that archery is purely stationary these days because it would otherwise be ridiculously dangerous otherwise. I've seen noobs walk out IN FRONT of the shooting line while archers are at full draw yards away and damn, EO's have gone ballistic with very good reason. It's a potentially fatal sport (not that others aren't) so safety is paramount.

As for the concept itself: accuracy and elegance.

When it was a martial form, true, it was about weight of fire and practicality, because of the average life expectancy of an archer in the field was not very long...

*bugger* Damn this work PC...

More to follow later... >_>
 

Gray-Philosophy

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I think he's great. Arguably the jumping about might seem kind of silly and dramatic, but I suspect it's just a way for him to display speed and versatility in an exaggerated manner.

And while it may be inefficient to run around and shoot targets that are within melee range, there is no question that he's able to shoot the bow really bloody fast. And he does seem to be able to hit his target at quite the distance as well (03:20)
 

Queen Michael

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I'm not a bowman. I know nothing about archery. But I do know this: That looked freakin' awesome.
 

Ragsnstitches

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At the 3 minute marker, where he's catching the arrow, something didn't look right. I played the video at .25 normal speed and there is some pretty obvious video artifacts at the exact moment the arrow is loosed (look at the right edge of the video). Now I could be wrong, the footage is too grainy to be sure, but that is usually a sign of a sloppy edit, possibly even some added CG effect (the arrow in flight). It could be just some issues with the video upload or the capture device (camera), but the timing seems too coincidental.

Does that suddenly make this guy out to be a fraud? No. A lot of the stuff looks real to me, but me thinks there is a combination of skill of the bow and skill of editing at play here.

Still looks cool, I just felt I needed to point that out.

EDIT: there are other moments in the video that didn't look right to me, but I didn't bother checking them. This one bit was just the most notable.

EDIT EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not doing this to squash anyones interest in Legolas here. He clearly has genuine skill. I'm no archer and I've had a sum total of 20 minutes in my life using a bow, so I can't actually talk about the value of that skill.
 

Buckets

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I remember seeing a guy on UK TV a few years back who fired an arrow through the hole in a series of axeheads which went into a target some distance away, can't remember what show but it was a pretty impressive feat.

They also have archery displays at the royal armouries in Leeds every year, see some very impressive skills on display there.
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

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That looked sick! O:

Not an archer, I only managed to handle a bow over the course of four summers. The only way I see myself getting into it again is probably in archery tag.
 

God'sFist

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I have some experience with the bow but I am no where near what this guy does. I actually saw this same video a few days ago too. Splitting an arrow mid flight is insanely cool. My archery ability is that I can hit a target maybe 15 yards away and that's about it. Some of the techniques he was using in the video I've wanted to try doing like the multiple arrows in the hand, which would be pretty damn neat.
 

Sniper Team 4

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I'm good with a bow, but not that good. I only shoot stationary targets, but everything that was said about the position of the arrow on which side of the bow makes perfect sense. It does take a while to string an arrow the way we do it now, and in combat you don't have that luxury. Also makes sense about bowmen being able to fire while on the move, because I'm fairly certain that only a fool stands still while fighting. And while I've never heard of an archer being able to catch an arrow, even Tolkien had Legolas picking up enemy arrows in the books. An arrow doesn't become unusable the moment it hits a target unless the shaft breaks.

As for the quiver on the back, yeah, only someone who watches movies would think that's viable. It's like trying to draw a full sword from your back. Unless you are using stupidly short arrows--like maybe even smaller than crossbow bolts--you're not pulling one from your back. A human's arms are not long enough to comfortably pull it out without catching the edge of a quiver and spilling it. As such, yes, we carry arrows on our hip, and I've even seen a few people carry them on the small of their back, near their waist.
 

SckizoBoy

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Gray-Philosophy said:
And while it may be inefficient to run around and shoot targets that are within melee range, there is no question that he's able to shoot the bow really bloody fast. And he does seem to be able to hit his target at quite the distance as well (03:20)
I eyeball that distance as approx. 50m which in the grand scheme of things isn't that long a range (for reference, Gent's Clout is at approx. 160yds IIRC). Accuracy, though, along with fast draw & release, can't fault the guy...

Ragsnstitches said:
At the 3 minute marker, where he's catching the arrow, something didn't look right. I played the video at .25 normal speed and there is some pretty obvious video artifacts at the exact moment the arrow is loosed (look at the right edge of the video). Now I could be wrong, the footage is too grainy to be sure, but that is usually a sign of a sloppy edit, possibly even some added CG effect (the arrow in flight). It could be just some issues with the video upload or the capture device (camera), but the timing seems too coincidental.
Hmmm... didn't really notice anything amiss, but might be worth a gander... -_-

Anyway... had an afternoon to ponder a proper response, so here goes, even if my knowledge is about 8 years out of date (hell, my Hoyt Vortec - yeah, hi gramps! - is collecting dust and the cable is shredded):

I admire and respect what the guy's done in terms of bringing to light the historicity and historiography of toxotic techniques of antiquity, but that is merely an illustration of how the martial intent has changed. As I mentioned earlier, modern archery is more about accuracy and elegance. To put it in a slightly more hammy way, whether or not modern archers realise it, archery has been imbued with a great deal of spirituality. I didn't quite grasp it until my back got messed over, but the two things archers respect most while on the line are silence and stillness (whether of themselves or their surroundings). Yeah, cheering at the Olympics by folks who just happened to draw the archery ticket... for every one of them, there's an archer wanting to slap them over the head with a board with the letters STFU on it. Still, that's just me and I haven't shot in years, so I'm guessing Olympic archers are way way way beyond such distractions. Thus, kudos to those who can shoot a 1000+ FITA when it's pissing it down with rain accompanied by a healthy breeze (which reminds me... why did ANYONE bother competing at the Southend Outdoors, it was such a lottery). Beyond all this is that most archers these days are always in search of the perfect shot, inclusive of state of mind, draw, load onto the back/driving through the wall, subtle rolling of the shoulder and the ideal back-tension release that results in a gold (hey, s'why back-tension release aids are a thing). The 'form' of modern archery is somewhat exemplified (perhaps ironically) in kyudo which is very ritualised even if some of the techniques this guy discusses are involved. Perfecting the motions until it basically becomes ingrained in one's muscle memory.

However, all of this is the logical extreme of luxury. By and large, modern archers are wimps compared to medieval/ancient archers, because, physiologically, of the way they load the bow's energy goes onto the back and shoulders. You never see an archer drawing to 30" in less than about a quarter of a second, and that's the full draw, not the initial, which a lot of people hold for several seconds. It varies from person to person, but full draw is held for a few seconds as well. Some compound archers are worse and stand at full draw for what feels like an absolute age. This time allows the weight to be transferred from the arms and is, bizarrely, both a consequence and a cause of said time taken.

Comparing against ancient forms, they were used pretty much exclusively for battle wherein accuracy and form are secondary to what can only be considered combat pragmatism. Shooting around the bow (i/o through the bow as now), holding arrows in hand and being able to do so on the move is all fair, though one thing he missed out was the ability to do it at range (the step back triple shot notwithstanding), though unfair on my part, given that there'd be a whole company of archers spewing arrows rather than just the one guy. That said, Cretan archers were expected to hit their mark from 200+ yds (albeit a rather large mark) (gotta reread Xenophon) and had to fight at every range, giving them, rightly, a feared reputation (I'm guessing they shot both through and around the bow, depending on context). Sort of on that count, the arrows themselves are worth consideration, as archery those days was pretty much exclusively fire and forget so shot consistency was difficult (cf. nowadays, a set of 12 ACE's costs a small fortune and should be expected to last several years with the occasional replacement of pile/nock/fletchings... as I say, a luxury). Even the bow itself, I guess... I got my compound second hand for about USD400 (albeit with a dozen ACC's chucked in), I doubt an ancient bowyer's work was worth that much (except by commission, presumably). Ambidextrous archery is a curious one, though, as I suspect that horse archers were, out of tactical necessity, ambidextrous otherwise, presumably, they'd only be effective going on one direction. Still, must've been rather hard going for Anatolian Sipahis and Sagittarii Clibanarii given the barding, but eh... -_- I wonder if he contemplated shooting in armour...

So I guess, it's good because he's shown how much it's evolved. *shrug*
 

Smooth Operator

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Well you have to wonder how legit all those feats are, even if he can do them it's probably not that high a percentage.
That being said however the dude has his fire technique down, while they might be presenting it all in a very cheesy way that makes you question every single word his moves leave things without doubt, dude got mad skills.

If that guy is level 3 then I'm still at the character creation screen, I need every gimmick possible and a really long time to hit shit properly.
 

SckizoBoy

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inu-kun said:
Just a question, shouldn't the cheapest modern bow (not a knock off) be as strong and sturdy of a premium bow from a few centuries ago? Today the range and price of materials should far better than most back then.
Nope... nowhere near! Well, in one instance, maybe not the other.

A Welsh longbowman's draw weight was approx. 75lbs+ (AFAIK, might be higher)... that's more than compound archers' bows (usually around 50-60lbs). Trad Mongolian bows are similarly high-weight. But because Welsh bowmen (and some English by extension) and Mongol nomads (and most horse archer cultures at that), were raised with bow and arrow in hand, they developed the musculature to be able to handle that weight by their mid-late teens. Most teens these days won't go much over 30-34lbs for fear of messing up their back since they likely didn't start archery until they were at least tall enough to hold a recurve (even for youngsters, they'll be 60"+ unstrung) without it touching the ground! These days, the bows are made with longevity and safety in mind, not strength. That said, because of wood warping, even composite bows would lose their strength within a few months of extended use, settling on (I think) about 75% of initial draw weight... or something...

Even compounds are designed with safety and (oddly) comfort, because the combined mass of a compound's accoutrements (high metal content compared to every other type of bow, long-rod, twins, launcher, sight, along with cams etc.) is quite high and forward heavy, the limbs are very thin (less than 1cm in most cases, though having said that... still thicking than most recurve limbs). So sturdy... probably, at least... strong? Not so much. Ergonomic? Definitely.
 

Hoplon

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SckizoBoy said:
inu-kun said:
Just a question, shouldn't the cheapest modern bow (not a knock off) be as strong and sturdy of a premium bow from a few centuries ago? Today the range and price of materials should far better than most back then.
Nope... nowhere near! Well, in one instance, maybe not the other.

A Welsh longbowman's draw weight was approx. 75lbs+ (AFAIK, might be higher)... that's more than compound archers' bows (usually around 50-60lbs). Trad Mongolian bows are similarly high-weight. But because Welsh bowmen (and some English by extension) and Mongol nomads (and most horse archer cultures at that), were raised with bow and arrow in hand, they developed the musculature to be able to handle that weight by their mid-late teens. Most teens these days won't go much over 30-34lbs for fear of messing up their back since they likely didn't start archery until they were at least tall enough to hold a recurve (even for youngsters, they'll be 60"+ unstrung) without it touching the ground! These days, the bows are made with longevity and safety in mind, not strength. That said, because of wood warping, even composite bows would lose their strength within a few months of extended use, settling on (I think) about 75% of initial draw weight... or something...

Even compounds are designed with safety and (oddly) comfort, because the combined mass of a compound's accoutrements (high metal content compared to every other type of bow, long-rod, twins, launcher, sight, along with cams etc.) is quite high and forward heavy, the limbs are very thin (less than 1cm in most cases, though having said that... still thicking than most recurve limbs). So sturdy... probably, at least... strong? Not so much. Ergonomic? Definitely.
English Longbows (which we totally stole from the welsh) where more like 160lb draw. and the archers could fire them from horseback. honestly the video doesn't impress at all since he's basically point blank with 40 lb draw bows. fuckin' should be hitting everything, reminds me of star wars kid more than anything.
 

mad825

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Youtube description said:
I'll never be able to shoot really fast with 100 lbs+ war bows
/Thread

While it is a impressive skill, I could and would do the same with a bow poundage that felt comfortable with me Towards the beginning of the gunpowder age, high poundages were required to penetrate the thicker armour that was being developed.
 

Byte2222

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Trick shots. Bloody good trick shots and by no means is he a bad archer but this is stage archery. I'm going to try to break it down but one thing to bear in mind is that we haven't seen any failed takes here.

For reference, I've been shooting for 4.5 years at Warwick Uni and in that time I've shot recurve (olympic-style), coached beginners and developing archers and I recently started shooting compound. I normally shoot target but I have been to a few field shoots. My personal best score on a Portsmouth (a standard indoor round) is 556 and on a World Archery 1440 (once known as a FITA Gents) is 912. I also studied Aikido for 2 years, so I have a little martial arts experience too.

'Historical methods' are based solely on depictions in art. Modern depictions can be absolutely dire and there's no reason to believe old paintings/carvings/whatever are accurate. A classic example in both historic and modern depictions is not using a stable reference point on the face. Technically you can shoot without one but technically you can walk to school/work on your hands every day - both are unreasonably difficult and totally unnecessary.

Quivers are not suited for running-and-shooting. I won't dispute that. I will, however, say that no-one should be running on the battlefield and an archer should definitely not be running-and-shooting. Even a melee fighter should measure their approach and avoid fatigue and fatigue is an extra killer for archery (trust me)

Left side of the bow, right side of the bow? Depends on your handedness but a right handed archer should always have the arrow on the left side of the bow. There are many reasons for this. One-eye aiming (like the video says) is one reason, and a pretty good one - I'm right handed and left eye dominant and have to close my left eye, as shooting with both eyes would mean I would use my left and the arrow would go miles off, or I'd just see a blurry unresolved image. Another reason to have the arrow on the left side is to control the arrow's bending. "But Byte, arrows don't bend"! They do when you look at them in slow motion. The string rolls of the archer's fingers (off to the left for a right-handed archer) and, because you're applying 40+lbs to a thin little arrow, it will flex as the string zig-zags to rest. This is the reason olympic bows have a pressure button: a little plunger nub on the end of a spring. Adjusting the pressure on the plunger controls the arrow's reaction. It also makes it more repeatable - Lars shoots by resting the arrow on his thumb, which is anything but repeatable.

Something he does throughout the video but that I only just noticed: I don't think he ever shoots with a glove or finger tab. Given that his fingers don't look red as a beetroot or super-calloused, that makes me think he's only using a light bow (sub 30lbs). I would never shoot my 40lb recurve without a tab, it hurts just to draw it and come down using only my fingers. For reference, the warbows retrieved from the sunken Mary Rose were (reportedly) over 100lbs in draw weight. The weight is relative to what kind of bow it is: you don't hold a longbow (~60lbs male target) as long as a recurve (~40lbs male target) and a compound goes light as the cams roll all the way round (~60lbs male target going down to ~26).

Shooting both right and left handed is a good idea in principle but it literally doubles the training time needed (that's lifetime training, you need to build up right and left muscles independently). When I did my coaching course, we shot opposite hands specifically to emulate being complete beginners again. It was very effective.

Splitting an arrow. The only archers in the world who could split an arrow on demand at 20yds (18m) or more (on a blade or by smashing their own) and a few world-class compound archers shooting ultra-modern bows. Suggesting a traditional archer could split an arrow on demand is like suggesting that they could take down a fighter jet. It's absolutely, completely and literally impossible.

Shooting another archer's (dropped) arrow is something that, in theory, can be done. However, arrows are all very individual and can be different weights, lengths and stiffnesses and all of these factors can radically affect how they fly.

Catching an arrow (one that's flying fast enough to kill someone) is impossible. A modern hunting compound shoots just over 300 feet per second, I clocked my recurve in just over 200fps and, even if a traditional bow can only shoot at 100fps (which, personally, I reckon is a huge underestimate), it's still flying at 100 feet per second!

Nitpick (but an important one): you never "fire" a bow. You shoot it, there's no fire involved. Most archery experts can appreciate this and, I know ad hominem can be a fallacious argument, but the video is making some bold statements and shouldn't be making such a rookie error.

The upside-down shot is 100% trick. The arrow should have dropped off the bow.

"Used both hands to give the arrow more power". How? The power depends on the length you draw to and you should always shoot with your bow arm fully extended and your draw hand at a repeatable position on your face. Are they suggesting adding the acceleration force of drawing the bow because that's tiny compared to the powerstroke of the bow itself.

-

Apparently that's everything. Like I said at the start, I'm not saying this guy is a bad archer (although the narration's full of shit) but these are trick shots and probably took dozens or hundreds of takes each.

Another archer's take on this video: http://www.theinfinitecurve.com/archery/bad-archery-pt-251/
 

DocJ

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I'm quite bad at archery. I have my own bow and arrows and go to a club with a bunch of people. It is rather fun to watch the people with old Longbows and bows to be used from horseback instead of my petty, standard recurve bow. I find some of the shots in this pretty cool and found it quite interesting. To be honest archery is a plain hobby for me. I have nowhere where I could practice except once a week at a special club.