Any moral choice systems done right?

[maconlon439]

I admit I am getting tired of moral choice systems, but sometimes gaming can surprise me by doing them right. Case in point: The last two Frogwares Sherlock Holmes games, (Crimes and Punishments, and The Devil's Daughter) They did it in a way that makes more sense. It is impossible for Sherlock Holmes to be evil. It is possible for Sherlock Holmes to be uncaring. Basically whenever the case is solved you choose whether Sherlock Holmes is totally cold to the culprit, or instead to show a little sympathy. It works because in some cases, the culprit clearly deserves sympathy, while in other cases they clearly don't. I'm not saying these two games are perfect, but I did like how they did that at least.

So, are there any other games that do moral choice systems better than other games?

 

[meiam]

Alpha protocol, kinda....

There's no moral but instead reputation for every character and organization and they all influence each others. If you're a jerk to someone maybe they'll there co worker about you and you'll have worse rep with them, but if your hated by one group well maybe the enemy of that group will like you. Nothing stop you from having different attitude for each characters, actually the game encourage you to do that.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I wasn't opposed to Bioshock. Harvest the little sisters for a quick boost of Adam right now, or spare them for larger rewards later. Wasn't a terrible design choice.

 

[Glongpre]

The Witcher series.

The choices are all usually shades of grey. You try to make the best decision with the information you gather, sometimes it turns out good, sometimes you are like shit, I can't believe I helped that ****.

 

[madwarper]

I haven't really seen one, because of the idea that there is an arbitrary morality behind a choice.
Someone could rationalize their actions which would be counter to the assigned morality of the expected action.

Spoiler

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Alpha protocol, kinda....

There's no moral but instead reputation for every character and organization and they all influence each others. If you're a jerk to someone maybe they'll there co worker about you and you'll have worse rep with them, but if your hated by one group well maybe the enemy of that group will like you. Nothing stop you from having different attitude for each characters, actually the game encourage you to do that.

Yeah, that was a great game that did it right.

It's not a "Moral choice" system, though. It's just got branching dialogue and it keeps track of everyone's impression of you.

If we're going pure "Good or evil" moral system, Undertale is the best one I've played. It's really just the same choice over and over (Befriend and spare your enemies, or kill them?), but it's done so well that I just have to praise it.

If we're just going to talk about "games which contain tricky moral quandries", Etrian Odyssey 3 fucking NAILED IT.

At the midway point of the game, you have to choose between 2 factions who each have different goals and each one tries to win you over. Then near the end, the stakes get raised and a terrible truth gets laid bare and you have to choose between them again, and it's a REALLY hard ethical question that you, yourself will need to rationalize as neither one is "Good". I still stand by my choice and the heartbreaking ending I got. It was tragic, but after a lot of thought I felt it was the only choice I could make...

Unless you look up a walkthrough and find the "guide-dang-it" bogus 3rd option that gives you a happy ending, thus ruining the whole appeal of the choice. XD

 

[Saelune]

Alpha protocol, kinda....

There's no moral but instead reputation for every character and organization and they all influence each others. If you're a jerk to someone maybe they'll there co worker about you and you'll have worse rep with them, but if your hated by one group well maybe the enemy of that group will like you. Nothing stop you from having different attitude for each characters, actually the game encourage you to do that.

Thats basically what I came up with for how a good moral system would work. (That isnt meant to sound arrogant or anything, just glad that others have had the same idea)

Im curious to give it a try now.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Im curious to give it a try now.

You totally should. Alpha Protocol is a little clunky but it's very smart and has a lot of possibilities.

Just make sure that you put some good points in at least one gun style so that you're not in serious shit for boss fights, and you should be ok (I personally like Pistols for stealth during the levels and Shotguns for bosses or clutch fights, but to each their own)

 

[meiam]

Alpha protocol, kinda....

There's no moral but instead reputation for every character and organization and they all influence each others. If you're a jerk to someone maybe they'll there co worker about you and you'll have worse rep with them, but if your hated by one group well maybe the enemy of that group will like you. Nothing stop you from having different attitude for each characters, actually the game encourage you to do that.

Thats basically what I came up with for how a good moral system would work. (That isnt meant to sound arrogant or anything, just glad that others have had the same idea)

Im curious to give it a try now.

Its an obsidian game so its very rough in a lot of area, bugs and some clearly cut or unpolished content. But it has a lot to give too, on more than one occasion the game will actually acknowledge how you played, so if you clear a mission stealth with no kill or just knocking out guard some character might actually mention that.

Has aegis said, it has the deus ex:HR problem of forcing you into boss fight, so even if you play pure stealth make sure you have some combat skill, although stealth skill aren't useless. Its a lot more RPG than your usual stealth game, so for example one of the skill you eventually get will grant you a few second of invisibility if a guard spot you, so there's less save and reload.

It's a wonderful little game, but don't go in with too high expectation.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

Alpha Protocol is brilliant. An utter nightmare at times combat-wise, with a few sections whichh will push you to quitting, but buy it & persist because for every annoying low there's far more juicy highs to enjoy.

It's essentially an average game, but a brilliant overall experience.

 

[SmallHatLogan]

I wasn't opposed to Bioshock. Harvest the little sisters for a quick boost of Adam right now, or spare them for larger rewards later. Wasn't a terrible design choice.

It ultimately made little difference overall though. I spared all the little sisters and still had more Adam than I knew what to do with by end game. I would've preferred it if sparing the little sisters netted you significantly less Adam. That way the gameplay effects would have actually matched the narrative. Being evil makes things easier, being good makes things harder.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

I wasn't opposed to Bioshock. Harvest the little sisters for a quick boost of Adam right now, or spare them for larger rewards later. Wasn't a terrible design choice.

It ultimately made little difference overall though. I spared all the little sisters and still had more Adam than I knew what to do with by end game. I would've preferred it if sparing the little sisters netted you significantly less Adam. That way the gameplay effects would have actually matched the narrative. Being evil makes things easier, being good makes things harder.

Agreed. It could have been...explicit. Like you get more Adam overall killing the Sisters, but after awhile Big Daddies automatically go agro on you, whereas sparing them nets you less, but eventually Big Daddies will help you in combat. Not come to your aid Superman style, but they won't wait to accidentally be hit by a grenade from a splicer before attacking him if he's attacking you.

 

[DoPo]

Alpha protocol, kinda....

There's no moral but instead reputation for every character and organization and they all influence each others. If you're a jerk to someone maybe they'll there co worker about you and you'll have worse rep with them, but if your hated by one group well maybe the enemy of that group will like you. Nothing stop you from having different attitude for each characters, actually the game encourage you to do that.

Yes, I also think this is sensible. Dragon Age: Origins also kind of did that - you don't have a "morality bar" but if you take certain choices your companions might agree or disagree, so if you try to help somebody who Morrigan considers helpless, she might be angered, even if it's a normally "good" deed. And other characters will react differently.

Overall, reputation with others is a far more organic way to handle this sort of mechanic. The concept of "morality" never really made much sense aside from some very clearly artificial settings - in other games you might find a dog and petting it will net you, say, 5 "good" points, and yet nobody will ever know, at the same time, you can murder somebody in cold blood with lots of witnesses and that would give you 10 "evil" points. So it's rather meaningless.

 

[Worgen]

Undertale. There is no in game counter or anything like that, it all comes down to how you play it and the game reacts accordingly. It will even fuck with you if it doesn't like how your playing it, but you can still play it like that.

 

[madwarper]

If we're just going to talk about "games which contain tricky moral quandries", Etrian Odyssey 3 fucking NAILED IT.

At the midway point of the game, you have to choose between 2 factions who each have different goals and each one tries to win you over. Then near the end, the stakes get raised and a terrible truth gets laid bare and you have to choose between them again, and it's a REALLY hard ethical question that you, yourself will need to rationalize as neither one is "Good". I still stand by my choice and the heartbreaking ending I got. It was tragic, but after a lot of thought I felt it was the only choice I could make...

a)It's not really a morality choice. Just a which class do you want to unlock first choice, because you can simply replay the game with your existing guild members, choosing to align with the other city to unlock the other class. And, of course, getting through the game is a whole lot easier when you can just plow through the FOE's instead of navigating around them.

b) There's a secret third option to fight against the Deep Ones and unite the two cities.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Alpha Protocol is brilliant. An utter nightmare at times combat-wise, with a few sections whichh will push you to quitting, but buy it & persist because for every annoying low there's far more juicy highs to enjoy.

It's essentially an average game, but a brilliant overall experience.

It REALLY depends on what skills you pick. On my second run, I picked Pistol and Shotguns, and literally only one battle at the end was a pain in the ass (fortunately there's a hidden sniper rifle you can use that helps).

The shotgun's skill can let you literally stunlock bosses for a few seconds, which, if paired with the incendiary ammo and the pistol's "Pause time and mark 3-7 headshots" skill, can decimate just about everything in the game. XD

The shotgun is also surprisingly not completely shit at midrange. That charge shot saved my ass so many times it's hilarious.

I just wish this kind of "You built wrong, you're fucked" problem never happened. I've heard of people getting stuck in System Shock 2 because they didn't have enough regular ballistic weapons for the endgame, and I myself had a super hard time in Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines when I played a Nosferatu the first time. I missed a ton of side quests because I stuck to the sewers and rarely ever talked to anyone and stuck to being super super moral, meaning I missed the regenerating blood sac and didn't have access to the blood bank (Or the money to use it), and my combat stats were shit across the board. XD I demolished most normal enemies with sprinting stealth kills, but bosses would wreck my shit over and over and over. Nosferatu is NOT meant for a first run of the game. ;_;

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

If we're just going to talk about "games which contain tricky moral quandries", Etrian Odyssey 3 fucking NAILED IT.

At the midway point of the game, you have to choose between 2 factions who each have different goals and each one tries to win you over. Then near the end, the stakes get raised and a terrible truth gets laid bare and you have to choose between them again, and it's a REALLY hard ethical question that you, yourself will need to rationalize as neither one is "Good". I still stand by my choice and the heartbreaking ending I got. It was tragic, but after a lot of thought I felt it was the only choice I could make...

a)It's not really a morality choice. Just a which class do you want to unlock first choice, because you can simply replay the game with your existing guild members, choosing to align with the other city to unlock the other class. And, of course, getting through the game is a whole lot easier when you can just plow through the FOE's instead of navigating around them.

b) There's a secret third option to fight against the Deep Ones and unite the two cities.

a)
If you take game plots seriously like I do, the first branch is a minor dilemma. I would have preferred the samurai class (not that I would have used it, I stuck with my initial party all the way through the game), but I sided with the deep city anyway because it made more sense to me.

Spoiler

I mean, yeah, they literally tried to kill you, AND killed off hundreds of explorers over the years with that damn F.O.E. feeding grounds trap. But considering the Deep Ones are on the level of Miniboss when you first encounter a pair of them, and they supposedly feed on fear? I was willing to understand their motives and decided that keeping a flood of guilds out of the lower labyrinth was probably a hell of a lot safer than the Upper City's plan to just "Keep exploring, if there's a threat, we need to confront it even if it's already safely sealed away!"

b) Yeah, but how many people are going to figure that out without a guide? You have to make 2 slightly contradictory minor decisions earlier in the game, THEN after turning in a major mission you have to turn around and go back to a character you have no reason to think will give you the time of day, and THEN you need to not get riled up by his attitude and agree that yes, you CAN live in harmony with his human-eating, sociopathic, literally-a-scourge-of-darkness-upon-the-World-Tree-that-saved-the-planet species of monsters.

Unless you're following an FAQ, or are insanely perceptive and ultra forgiving you will not discover that option without outside help. At least not your first run.

Plus it really does kind of ruin the major dilemma that the game present you with at the end. :s Which is sad because I REALLY enjoyed that the game hit me with a decision that I had to literally take a full day to decide on and had the guts to follow through on the gut-punch.

 

[Worgen]

Undertale. There is no in game counter or anything like that, it all comes down to how you play it and the game reacts accordingly. It will even fuck with you if it doesn't like how your playing it, but you can still play it like that.

I'd have to disagree with you here. It's very simplistic and overly idealistic, to get the golden ending you need to forgive people who attempts to murder you. And a lot of it boils down to guess what is the contrived way the game was designed to do that rather than give a choice. Also the whole EXP and LVL felt forced and "in your face".

It is idealistic but not simplistic, especially if you don't play as a paragon of virtue.

Spoiler

Even when you do play as a pure pacifist the game still addresses it. It literally addresses that this wouldn't work in real life and the only reason you can do it in game is because you can reload, you are in control of the game. When you play genocide Sans will attempt to break the game so you cannot kill everyone. The way you play really impacts the game much more than the simple system that bioware uses in mass effect. Even the system they use in dragon age is more simple, cause most of your choices are dialog, not gameplay. In Undertale almost all your choices are gameplay, its not asking you if something is moral, its judging you when you do something immoral, something immoral in actual life, which we do all the time in games, cause its easy to do in games.

 

[Danbo Jambo]

It REALLY depends on what skills you pick. On my second run, I picked Pistol and Shotguns, and literally only one battle at the end was a pain in the ass (fortunately there's a hidden sniper rifle you can use that helps).

The shotgun's skill can let you literally stunlock bosses for a few seconds, which, if paired with the incendiary ammo and the pistol's "Pause time and mark 3-7 headshots" skill, can decimate just about everything in the game. XD

The shotgun is also surprisingly not completely shit at midrange. That charge shot saved my ass so many times it's hilarious.

I just wish this kind of "You built wrong, you're fucked" problem never happened. I've heard of people getting stuck in System Shock 2 because they didn't have enough regular ballistic weapons for the endgame, and I myself had a super hard time in Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines when I played a Nosferatu the first time. I missed a ton of side quests because I stuck to the sewers and rarely ever talked to anyone and stuck to being super super moral, meaning I missed the regenerating blood sac and didn't have access to the blood bank (Or the money to use it), and my combat stats were shit across the board. XD I demolished most normal enemies with sprinting stealth kills, but bosses would wreck my shit over and over and over. Nosferatu is NOT meant for a first run of the game. ;_;

Actually I think that's a fair point with a lot of games. There are plenty out there which rely on you choosing or creating an enjoyable build to enjoy the game. I tried Divinity 2 as an all out mage and it was OK, but lacking; As an archer and found it poor; but as a battle-mage thought it was awesome.

I think Kingdoms of Amalur has a novel approach to this problem, and obviously other games allow you to re-spec. But personally I think the best solution all round is to have builds a 1/3 or so complete to start with so the player can get an accurate feel for that build or character. I think Alpha Protocal offers these options if I remember rightly?