Anyone else bothered by the increased blurring of gender roles?

[Char-Nobyl]

Well, to answer simply the question put forth by the title "no." Now, on to the actual post:

Many traditionally male roles and traits are no longer celebrated or instilled in today's youth.

Probably because the jobs/roles you're thinking about were exclusive to men until a few decades ago. Wondering why it's only a recent phenomenon for women to be portrayed in the roles of soldiers? Probably because it was forbidden by law for women to be soldiers until relatively recently. And even now, they can't be drafted or deployed as frontline troops (US law, btw).

In my opinion, pop culture has largely contributed to the feminizing of men and boys.

Feminizing? What exactly are you talking about? The only thing I can think of is Japan, where it's the straight boys who could be confused with girls and the brawny manly-men who are more stereotypically gay.

For example, one thing that particularly bothers me is how popular it is on TV shows to portray husbands and fathers as bumbling idiots who are easily controlled by their wives and children.

Uh-huh...somehow I think that you're getting upset because it happens "at all" rather than "never." I can point to you any number of contemporary films, shows, etc that show fathers to be competent/intelligent for every film you gripe over.

And let's not forget the hypersensitive nanny-state parents that don't let boys be boys. I worked as a camp counselor at my local YMCA with 12-14 year olds, and I have never seen such a group of sissies, hypochondriacs, and whiners. How are these boys going to grow up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

What, among the boys, or the counselors? Maybe part of the problem is that you're counseling at a YMCA camp. What did you expect? That they'd be using steel-cage matches to settle arguments between kids?

And besides, all of that's moot when the "let boys be boys" thing has that annoying tendency to result in bodily harm, and bodily harm to children, no less. "Oh, little Johnny asserted his masculinity today! Also, he broke his arm in the process. We told him to walk it off like a man would." How many parents want to hear that sort of thing, and then how many of them would make legal trouble for the overseers who let their kids break their limbs "building character"?

EDIT: Since people on this forum never seem to read past the OP:

From Post #19: Never once did I suggest or condone a return to a time of women being "barefoot and pregnant" in the kitchen while the manly men went out to hunt bears. I like that women work and men have shared responsibility with children. I don't think the father/husband should hold a dictatorship over his household and beat his wife and kids.

Uh-huh...so in other words, you want to have your cake and eat it? You want women to be able to do things other than stay home and raise kids? Great, then you also need men to have some degree of skills as parents to pick up the slack. If you want a stable family, the parents can't be two completely separate spheres of skills and abilities.

Example: Jim's daughter Cindy is going through a tough breakup. Unfortunately, Jim's wife Laura is out of town for an extended period of time, and Jim spent his life wrestling alligators and kicking ass instead of learning how to empathize with other humans. So Cindy cries herself to sleep until she becomes a shell of a person who learned that emotions are a vulnerability to be suppressed.

Gee, I can't see that going badly.

But I do think that men and women have certain innate traits that make them better suited for different things. When I'm feeling sad and I need a sympathetic ear, I call my mother or a female friend, because women are generally better at empathy.

Okay...and, just for the sake of argument, what do you think girls usually do when they feel sad or have relationship trouble? Does it involve, for instance, talking to fathers or other people of the opposite gender? See, lots of problems that people have stem from interactions with the opposite sex. As a result, to get a proper perspective on those problems, we speak with people who can relate to the other side of the issue, but aren't the actual person in question.

And every girlfriend I've ever had enjoyed feeling safe in my presence, even if pragmatically there isn't much danger a cop couldn't protect her from.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. You're not some sort of paragon of manhood with an aura of safety. You're an ordinary guy. Most girls will place more immediate value in an ordinary guy walking alongside them on a dark night than they would in even the best staffed police department in the country for a simple reason: you're walking next to them, and a police force isn't. Same reason someone would feel better armed with a pistol in their jacket than an unarmed man with an armory at home.

But boys and male teens today are increasingly turning into overly sensitive delicate flowers

Probably because there aren't as many inherent behavioral differences between men and women as you like to think there are. If you allow people to develop any way they want, they will do just that. If a kid doesn't play football or camp out in the woods, it's not because you just need to inject him with more testosterone to make him a "proper" man, it's because he doesn't feel comfortable with them.

 

[Jonesy911]

I agree with the OP that men are being pussified, I just don't care. The only reason anyone would be "concerned" about this is because they're afraid of change.

 

[Jaded Scribe]

And "men only cry when they're exhausted" is a load of bullshit. That is not how men are wired biologically, it's how society has wired them. I know a number of men that have cried when their girlfriends broke up with them, or even when their significant other simply said hurtful things.

It's a generalization, but it's not bullshit. As I said, I've been analyzing a lot: I know I'm wired this way. Most men are. Also, breakups are usually more devastating for the men than for women, that's why men often cry afterward (not that they often show it). Getting ones pride or ego hurt is another thing which can be very shattering.

You know how long it took me to figure out why my gf cries a lot? I used to freak out every time, thinking she's got some really serious problem. Wrong; it's just her coping mechanism. Her brain is simply wired differently.

This has little to do with society: I've picked this example because it's a rule of thumb actually based on biology. It's very easy to make a mistake and think it's a society thing. And as I say, there are tons of such little things. We could discuss these merits to the end of the world.

Again, you may be wired that way, but it has nothing to do with your gender. It's based on how you were raised (and your clear need to rebel against it), or it may be biological, but not gender related. Maybe your family just aren't criers. I've seen plenty of women who almost never cry.

It's not a mistake to see that this is not a gender based issue. If you actually "self-educated" yourself on the issue, you would find that in societies with different expectations, people behave and display their emotions differently.

And you would also understand that our biology is not 100% based on our gender.

You keep talking about how you are wired a certain way, and that must completely be because you are male. This is so incredibly false that it blows my mind. There are a million things that can make a difference here. Besides, you are only one person. You can't turn around and make ridiculous, broad-sweeping generalizations based off of that.

And this comes back to another point, the benefits of a formal education. Self-educating on the internet leads you to a bunch of bullshit, with no basis for how to tell the good information from the bad.

Having studied psychology and biology in a formal setting, with textbooks that required a review of other masters of the field rather than any jackass with an internet connection, I think I have a much better basis of understanding in this topic than you do.

 

[SilverUchiha]

After reading the first page of responses, I must say, I am a little concerned and for only one real reason. The wussification of Men is not the reason, though that may be an issue later down the road, I can't say.

I will say that this breaking down the gender roles may be hurting traditional marriage, family, and so on. Hell, it doesn't have to be traditional either. Divorce rates continue to rise and I think this may be the main source of that problem. If both are trying to be career people, who's going to keep the homestead in order? (and vice versa). This becomes more problematic when children come along.

And don't start saying how "that's what babysitters and daycares are for". Do you know how many times I've been on these forums and when something goes wrong like a school shooting, kids buying mature games and putting games (in large) at risk in supreme court, and all the other issues revolving around kids and everyone here blames the parents and their lack of parenting? (long question). I'm thinking that, at least in the early years, there should be a parent in the relationship who is willing to be more of the parenting figure and make sure their kids are raised by someone responsible rather than hoping they'll grow-up fine through daycares and babysitters.

except there are plenty of dual income families that spend plenty of time with their kids. Your complaint is a hypothetical that has already been proven false. Shitty parents will be shitty even if one of them stays home full time, and good parents will make time for their kids even if both are working.

Not hypothetical. I'm basing it off all the various relationships I've seen of my friend's parents as well as various cousins. A lot of diversity among how the relationships of their parents work.

 

[Eldarion]

Well, since women don't need men to protect them anymore let's hope we are never invaded because very few men today were taught to fight. I am sure women can hold their own though against an invading army.

It has been mentioned that masculinity is not needed in todays world. Well, there are still alot of professions that most women don't want. Dangerous and dirty jobs are predominately male. Don't see alot of women mining or working in the sewers. Even in everyday jobs where heavy lifting is required, men are required to the lifting. I have seen more than a few female clerks at Wal Mart call for a man to lift something heavy.

I wonder, would society collapse if men just stopped working, maybe moved to an island and left the running of society to women? After all, masculinity isn't needed in todays world.

This only makes sense if masculinity and feminine behavior is exclusive to men or women. It isn't, the women you see asking for a man to lift something aren't incapable of lifting heavy things because they are women, its because they as individuals just happen to not be very strong.

Ah, so it would ok for a weak man to call a strong woman to do the heavy lifting? You know as well as I how socially unacceptable that would be.

So what do you think, if men just moved to an island and left everything to the women to run, how would it go?

It would go fine because men and women are equally capable in society. Masculine and feminine traits develop at the individual level regardless of gender.

I work at wal mart, I can't lift pallets. I usually get a female coworker I work with to get them for me or help me with the heavy loads. No one belittles me about this, because most people have moved on from pre convinced gender notions.

LOL, yeah ok. The double standards are all gone and men and women are treated as if they have the exact same strengths and weaknesses. I have never seen that world.

You blind? Cause I'm finding it very hard to believe you.

No I am not blind there are loads of double standards in regards to this topic. Heavy lifting just being one of them. Did you know that men still have to register for the draft but women do not? Is that a double standard or am I blind?

Men are still tied to the porvider/protector gender role while women were freed from theirs. Ever talked to stay at home dads about how they are treated?

Are you going on about how its not fair to some of these double standards to exist? Or do you still think that only men can display masculine traits and that women need you to do the "men work". Cause I've already explained that masculine traits are not exclusive to men and vise versa.

Just cause some unfair double standards exist does not make them right, but I'm a compassionate sensitive male and most everyone I know has no problem with it.

No one would have a problem with you being a sensitive male (that is what society wants you to be until they need soldiers), if you were a macho male you would be demonized and called immature. However, when a woman needs protecting, your feminine traits won't serve you well.

The double standards exist and they will remain if no one talks about them.

Well its not black and white. Feminine does not mean weak either.

You are spending too much time playing with terminology. Masculine and feminine mean different things to different people.

Let's drop the terminology and say that when a woman wants someone to protect her, your sensitive side won't serve you well.

I can't fight because I'm sensitive? Am I incapable of defending myself or others because I tend to shy away from confrontation? I was taught to avoid conflict whenever necessary, I was taught this in my martial arts class. Unless to you feminine equates to a pushover, to weakness perhaps? I don't think it does.

Go into the Army, see how fast some drill sergeant has you in tears. You were taught to avoid conflict and so chances are you have very little experience in dealing with conflict.

I grew up on military bases, I knew a few drill sergeants. A martial arts teacher instructs you to avoid unnecessary violence. Thee is no reason to go looking for trouble. That doesn't mean I can't fight. I'm calm, cool, passive but not weak. Feminine doesn't mean weak to me. If our terminology is clashing I'm not sure what to do from here. You seem to have your own idea of what those things mean.

I don't know how old you are but I will tell you that women do not really want sensitive men (except as friends). I learned that the hard way and so will you (because like me, you won't anyone else).

I'm 19 and I don't know you or your experiences but I've had a few relationships I look back fondly on. I don't think there is a magic amount of feminine or masculine traits that women are looking for, I depends on the person doesn't it? Not that I'm only looking at female partners. I'm bi. Perhaps that explains my viewpoint on the issue at hand. I don't see only feminine girls or masculine guys, I am looking at people.

 

[Jonesy911]

I agree with the OP that men are being pussified, I just don't care. The only reason anyone would be "concerned" about this is because they're afraid of change.

I am sure alot of men would love to be able to stay at home while their wife goes out to work. I am sure alot of men would love not having to be in a protector role (as enforced by law in the US).

That just isn't reality though.

What? I can barely make sense of what you said or what relevance it has to be honest. I think what you're saying is that you're sure that some husbands would love to stay at home while their wife is at work but that isn't reality? Well I know many adult males who are, for lack of a better word, "House husbands" so it definetly is a real thing.

Also, "alot" isn't a word.

 

[Agayek]

Ok, so according you (and just for the sake of this discussion) is a boy growing up to be softer, more sensitive a bad thing? Can a male grow up with feminine traits and mature healthily?

In fact, define a healthy male. I'm interested to see what you come up with.

Of course they can. Being more sensitive doesn't hinder anything. It doesn't overly help anything either. It's essentially irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

There are certain traits that all psychologically mature people share. These include a recognition of responsibility, acceptance of reality over fantasy, confidence in oneself and one's decisions, and the ability to process emotions in a productive (or at minimum non-destructive) manner. Anything above and beyond that is superfluous.

If you're one of those bleeding heart men that can't help but burst into tears when Bambi's mother dies or whatever, yet you have all of those traits, you're a mature, functioning individual.

Similarly, if you're a female femi-nazi man-hater, and still embody these traits, you're also a mature, functioning individual.

These traits are all learned, it is extremely rare to see anyone have such naturally. The reason I support and desire teaching different things to the different genders as children is that the genders learn differently. The most obvious example being that women have very different methods of handling/expressing emotion than men. It takes appropriately different approaches to teach these base characteristics.

 

[Agayek]

the plural of anecdote isn't data. you have a situation you think will happen (a hypothetical) and a handful of personal examples (anecdotes) you have no actual evidence. For every anecdotal dual income couple that fails, I probably have an anecdotal couple that succeeds. on a societal level, dual income couples are doing fine at parenting (From what I understand Britain is mostly dual income families, and I've yet to read anything saying there's more badly raised kids over there)

Considering the prevalence of "chavs" and the like, I'm not sure the UK is the best example for that. Just saying.

 

[VGStrife]

I am sorry to say this but gender roles are something completly arbitrary. Want proof?

Name one thing that men can do better/different than women and that has any relevance in today's world.

Physical strenght, right. But is this relevant for us?
Nope.

In this world of gunpowder and tasers, this lone attribute becomes meaningless. A woman can drive a tank just as well as any man.

So. Are gender roles starting to fade? Yes.
Is this a bad thing? Depends on your point of view.
Are gender roles something necessary? Probably not.

Builder, Fitter, Mechanic etc?

There are plenty of jobs that need a degree of physical strength.
Yes women could do them, but the strength required comes more easily to males as we are genetically designed to be stronger.

While this is true none of these jobs have a high reputation or are very popular. Cpitalist world works against gender roles by emphazing the importance of money. Mechanics don't earn more than programmers = value of strenght fades.

I would have to disagree to an extent, without builders i doubt programmers would have anywhere to program. Without fitters and mechanics what machines would the programs be written for?

Strength is valued in several professions, professions that are vital to the world we live in today, reputable or not. Men are suited to these jobs, and women are not. That is all I am saying.

 

[Eldarion]

Ok, so according you (and just for the sake of this discussion) is a boy growing up to be softer, more sensitive a bad thing? Can a male grow up with feminine traits and mature healthily?

In fact, define a healthy male. I'm interested to see what you come up with.

Of course they can. Being more sensitive doesn't hinder anything. It doesn't overly help anything either. It's essentially irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

There are certain traits that all psychologically mature people share. These include a recognition of responsibility, acceptance of reality over fantasy, confidence in oneself and one's decisions, and the ability to process emotions in a productive (or at minimum non-destructive) manner. Anything above and beyond that is superfluous.

If you're one of those bleeding heart men that can't help but burst into tears when Bambi's mother dies or whatever, yet you have all of those traits, you're a mature, functioning individual.

Similarly, if you're a female femi-nazi man-hater, and still embody these traits, you're also a mature, functioning individual.

These traits are all learned, it is extremely rare to see anyone have such naturally. The reason I support and desire teaching different things to the different genders as children is that the genders learn differently. The most obvious example being that women have very different methods of handling/expressing emotion than men. It takes appropriately different approaches to teach these base characteristics.

Ah it has nothing to do with capacity, your just talking about inherent differences. I misunderstood then. I see now.

 

[Agayek]

you're gonna tell me chavs didn't exist before women were emancipated? my point was that yes there are fuck ups everywhere, but dual income families have not increased the incidence of said fuck ups.

Fucked if I know. I can't be bothered to look up foreign crime rates for the last 100 years.

I was just pointing out a relevant fact.

Also, there's no way to tell without some sort of facts at hand that dual income families have not increased the rate of fuck ups. It's fully possible to go either way.

 

[D0WNT0WN]

How are these boys going to group up to be leaders of men and protectors of women?

Well, not, obviously. And women don't need men to protect them.

Not anymore atleast. Welcome to the 21st Century everyone, there is no need to protect your women from other tribes, bears and tigers.

Im fine with women taking on other roles it makes no difference to me, there are two girls in my Engineering Course and they deal with everything just aswell as the guys. I dont like the feminisation of males though or the super feminazis who are basically hypocrites in their own right they think that they can have all the pros of having a non gender specific society and disregard the cons because it is "Unfair To Females".
Male feminisation really pisses me off though. Im fine with self improvement, it is something that everyone should strive for but when you see a guy with his hair dyed, wearing skinny jeans and eye liner I know it has gone to far.

Japan is quite guilty of this.