Are almost all military shooters mediocre since Medal of Honor 1999?

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You seem to look at it from a gameplay perspective, where granted, aiming down sights is mostly just an adjustment of the sensitivity. And I look at it from the real world perspective, where holding the rifle by your hip, and properly shouldering it, is worlds apart, and as such I think that they should be included (basically hip-firing for panic'y situations where you're literally in the face of the enemy, and ADS for everything else, assuming it's a game where ADS fits).

Yeah, I'm talking about just gameplay. Like I said I don't care about how unrealistic or realistic the shooter is as long as it is fun and has depth. I gave an example how you can integrate ADS and hip-fire while having an impact on gameplay and being truer to actually shooting a gun. Making it take at least a full second to bring up your sights to be able to accurately fire (vs inaccurate hip-fire) would have huge impacts on gameplay and convey the difference of your character aiming or not aiming. Even a game like ARMA has your character bringing up sights/scope instantaneously making ADS pointless from a controls standpoint.

 

[MrFalconfly]

You seem to look at it from a gameplay perspective, where granted, aiming down sights is mostly just an adjustment of the sensitivity. And I look at it from the real world perspective, where holding the rifle by your hip, and properly shouldering it, is worlds apart, and as such I think that they should be included (basically hip-firing for panic'y situations where you're literally in the face of the enemy, and ADS for everything else, assuming it's a game where ADS fits).

Yeah, I'm talking about just gameplay. Like I said I don't care about how unrealistic or realistic the shooter is as long as it is fun and has depth. I gave an example how you can integrate ADS and hip-fire while having an impact on gameplay and being truer to actually shooting a gun. Making it take at least a full second to bring up your sights to be able to accurately fire (vs inaccurate hip-fire) would have huge impacts on gameplay and convey the difference of your character aiming or not aiming. Even a game like ARMA has your character bringing up sights/scope instantaneously making ADS pointless from a controls standpoint.

"bringing up sights/scope instantaneously making ADS pointless from a controls standpoint"

Except the point of ADS isn't to induce a delay between recognizing a target, and engaging the target.

The point is to incorporate a procedure, which is authentic to the setting..

Also, a soldier taking 1 second to properly shoulder his rifle, would be considered a badly trained soldier. He'd be issued training by his sergeant if he was that clumsy with his weapon, if he took an entire second to be ready to fire. A well trained soldier can shoulder his weapon just as fast as any Battlefield and Call of Duty character (discounting sniper rifles, but I'll chalk that up as a game-balance thing, because sniper rifles are generally used from a prepared position).

EDIT:
Generally I'm suspicious of the "gameplay" perspective, because, looking strictly at gameplay, cars in racing-games shouldn't have gears, because that's just one more complication in the process of accelerating. But cars do have gears, and their power varies across the rev-range, so of cause I'd expect cars in racing games to have gears, and varying power over the rev-range.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Also, a soldier taking 1 second to properly shoulder his rifle, would be considered a badly trained soldier. He'd be issued training by his sergeant if he was that clumsy with his weapon, if he took an entire second to be ready to fire. A well trained soldier can shoulder his weapon just as fast as any Battlefield and Call of Duty character (discounting sniper rifles, but I'll chalk that up as a game-balance thing, because sniper rifles are generally used from a prepared position).

EDIT:
Generally I'm suspicious of the "gameplay" perspective, because, looking strictly at gameplay, cars in racing-games shouldn't have gears, because that's just one more complication in the process of accelerating. But cars do have gears, and their power varies across the rev-range, so of cause I'd expect cars in racing games to have gears, and varying power over the rev-range.

In a game, when you go to ADS, you've already aimed right on the enemy. Whereas as in real life, you can't just ADS and headshot instantaneously because you haven't actually aimed yet.

You can out-shift another player in a racing game to accelerate faster than them. Whereas aiming has already been done before either player actually shoots in a shooter. If ADSing actually had an impact on aiming and shooting, CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming.

 

[MrFalconfly]

In a game, when you go to ADS, you've already aimed right on the enemy. Whereas as in real life, you can't just ADS and headshot instantaneously because you haven't actually aimed yet.

No you aren't already aimed. You're just looking at the bloke and vaguely pointing the gun at him

You can out-shift another player in a racing game to accelerate faster than them. Whereas aiming has already been done before either player actually shoots in a shooter. If ADSing actually had an impact on aiming and shooting, CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming.

Counter Strike, more than anything is an arena-shooter, not any kind of "tactical, modern, military shooter".

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

In a game, when you go to ADS, you've already aimed right on the enemy. Whereas as in real life, you can't just ADS and headshot instantaneously because you haven't actually aimed yet.

No you aren't already aimed. You're just looking at the bloke and vaguely pointing the gun at him

You can out-shift another player in a racing game to accelerate faster than them. Whereas aiming has already been done before either player actually shoots in a shooter. If ADSing actually had an impact on aiming and shooting, CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming.

Counter Strike, more than anything is an arena-shooter, not any kind of "tactical, modern, military shooter".

I've seen a bit of the show Top Shot to know you can easily shoot better and faster in a game than real life.

CounterStrike is not an arena shooter. It's as military as you can get without technically being military with counter terrorists vs terrorists. COD even has the same exact mode as CS. CS uses real life guns much like every other MMS.

 

[MrFalconfly]

In a game, when you go to ADS, you've already aimed right on the enemy. Whereas as in real life, you can't just ADS and headshot instantaneously because you haven't actually aimed yet.

No you aren't already aimed. You're just looking at the bloke and vaguely pointing the gun at him

You can out-shift another player in a racing game to accelerate faster than them. Whereas aiming has already been done before either player actually shoots in a shooter. If ADSing actually had an impact on aiming and shooting, CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming.

Counter Strike, more than anything is an arena-shooter, not any kind of "tactical, modern, military shooter".

I've seen a bit of the show Top Shot to know you can easily shoot better and faster in a game than real life.

CounterStrike is not an arena shooter. It's as military as you can get without technically being military with counter terrorists vs terrorists. COD even has the same exact mode as CS. CS uses real life guns much like every other MMS.

CounterStrike, is more akin to CTF with painball guns, than any military, which is why I classify it as an arenashooter.

EDIT:
As you said "CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming".

That makes it an arenashooter.

Competitive gaming couldn't care less about emulating real actions, which is why it can ignore them.
This is exactly why I'm distinguishing competitive shooters, from modern military shooters. They have two different goals. One is to be a pure sport, the other is to emulate certain actions.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

CounterStrike, is more akin to CTF with painball guns, than any military, which is why I classify it as an arenashooter.

EDIT:
As you said "CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming".

That makes it an arenashooter.

Competitive gaming couldn't care less about emulating real actions, which is why it can ignore them.
This is exactly why I'm distinguishing competitive shooters, from modern military shooters. They have two different goals. One is to be a pure sport, the other is to emulate certain actions.

CS isn't even close to an area shooter. No one, but you, has ever classified CS as an arena shooter. If CS was an arena shooter, you think there'd be articles asking if the arena shooter is dead?

Competitive gaming only cares about how good the game is. None of the military shooters I've played seem to be concerned at all with emulating "military" actions. Something like Metal Gear Online 2, where a porn magazine is a trap and you can run around in a box, was far closer to emulating military actions than any military shooter I've played as it had leaning, no health regen, no grenade button, no melee button, no killstreaks, etc.

 

[MrFalconfly]

CounterStrike, is more akin to CTF with painball guns, than any military, which is why I classify it as an arenashooter.

EDIT:
As you said "CounterStrike wouldn't be the goto shooter from competitive gaming".

That makes it an arenashooter.

Competitive gaming couldn't care less about emulating real actions, which is why it can ignore them.
This is exactly why I'm distinguishing competitive shooters, from modern military shooters. They have two different goals. One is to be a pure sport, the other is to emulate certain actions.

CS isn't even close to an area shooter. No one, but you, has ever classified CS as an arena shooter. If CS was an arena shooter, you think there'd be articles asking if the arena shooter is dead?

Competitive gaming only cares about how good the game is. None of the military shooters I've played seem to be concerned at all with emulating "military" actions. Something like Metal Gear Online 2, where a porn magazine is a trap and you can run around in a box, was far closer to emulating military actions than any military shooter I've played as it had leaning, no health regen, no grenade button, no melee button, no killstreaks, etc.

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

A shooter's controls are the same regardless of single player or multiplayer...

 

[MrFalconfly]

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

A shooter's controls are the same regardless of single player or multiplayer...

And Formula 1 cars have the same control layout as a normal streetcar (Steering wheel, throttle to the right, brake to the left).

That doesn't mean Formula 1 cars are the same as a Fiat Multipla.

 

[mad825]

Full Spectrum Warrior. While I'm at it I'll throw ARMA into the mix.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

A shooter's controls are the same regardless of single player or multiplayer...

And Formula 1 cars have the same control layout as a normal streetcar (Steering wheel, throttle to the right, brake to the left).

That doesn't mean Formula 1 cars are the same as a Fiat Multipla.

I don't know why you come up with these nonsensical analogies. The point is, on PC, there's no point in having ADS as it is completely unneeded. An analogy that would actually make sense would be an automatic car having a gear shifter, which would be pointless much like ADS for a PC shooter UNLESS you are actually going to have ADS have gameplay affects like I've mentioned before.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

A shooter's controls are the same regardless of single player or multiplayer...

And Formula 1 cars have the same control layout as a normal streetcar (Steering wheel, throttle to the right, brake to the left).

That doesn't mean Formula 1 cars are the same as a Fiat Multipla.

I don't know why you come up with these nonsensical analogies. The point is, on PC, there's no point in having ADS as it is completely unneeded. An analogy that would actually make sense would be an automatic car having a gear shifter, which would be pointless much like ADS for a PC shooter UNLESS you are actually going to have ADS have gameplay affects like I've mentioned before.

No, the PC has nothing to do with it.

What decieds whether ADS is a thing or not is whether it's a competitive shooter, or a modern military fps.

Look at Battlefield 2 for example. That was a PC exclusive, and it had ADS (because of authenticity. Same thing with Arma, only even more so).

 

[ZeD [taken 0]]

Thank fuck, you've finally started differentiating between competitive multiplayer and other FPSs.

My job is done.

Cya.

A shooter's controls are the same regardless of single player or multiplayer...

And Formula 1 cars have the same control layout as a normal streetcar (Steering wheel, throttle to the right, brake to the left).

That doesn't mean Formula 1 cars are the same as a Fiat Multipla.

I don't know why you come up with these nonsensical analogies. The point is, on PC, there's no point in having ADS as it is completely unneeded. An analogy that would actually make sense would be an automatic car having a gear shifter, which would be pointless much like ADS for a PC shooter UNLESS you are actually going to have ADS have gameplay affects like I've mentioned before.

Okay, so when doesn't ADS have a gameplay effect?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

No, the PC has nothing to do with it.

What decieds whether ADS is a thing or not is whether it's a competitive shooter, or a modern military fps.

Look at Battlefield 2 for example. That was a PC exclusive, and it had ADS (because of authenticity. Same thing with Arma, only even more so).

Many MMSs are competitive shooters...

Okay, so when doesn't ADS have a gameplay effect?

If ADS didn't come up instantaneously and actually simulated that it takes some time to aim after you raise your sights. How you aim in any shooter is centering the free lock camera on the enemy and then shooting. Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate, which makes very little sense (outside of sniper rifles). Several PC FPSs function perfectly fine without ADS because of the mouse whereas console shooters need ADS for FPSs and over-the-shoulder shooting (for TPSs) to provide that sensitivity "switch" to allow you to fine tune your aim due to using a controller.

 

[ZeD [taken 0]]

Okay, so when doesn't ADS have a gameplay effect?

If ADS didn't come up instantaneously and actually simulated that it takes some time to aim after you raise your sights. How you aim in any shooter is centering the free lock camera on the enemy and then shooting. Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate, which makes very little sense (outside of sniper rifles). Several PC FPSs function perfectly fine without ADS because of the mouse whereas console shooters need ADS for FPSs and over-the-shoulder shooting (for TPSs) to provide that sensitivity "switch" to allow you to fine tune your aim due to using a controller.

So it does have a gameplay effect.

"Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate"

Because you're not aiming in the same manner.
Without ADS you're shouldering the gun without looking through the sights, or you're literally hip-firing. It makes sense that your accuracy would decrease.
It also adds the gameplay mechanic of whether or not you should use the flexible hip-fire at an enemy, or try and take him down with the slow and clumsy, but accurate, ADS.

It's not a console/PC thing, because consoles have had ADS-less FPS games since forever.
It's a design choice.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Okay, so when doesn't ADS have a gameplay effect?

If ADS didn't come up instantaneously and actually simulated that it takes some time to aim after you raise your sights. How you aim in any shooter is centering the free lock camera on the enemy and then shooting. Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate, which makes very little sense (outside of sniper rifles). Several PC FPSs function perfectly fine without ADS because of the mouse whereas console shooters need ADS for FPSs and over-the-shoulder shooting (for TPSs) to provide that sensitivity "switch" to allow you to fine tune your aim due to using a controller.

So it does have a gameplay effect.

"Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate"

Because you're not aiming in the same manner.
Without ADS you're shouldering the gun without looking through the sights, or you're literally hip-firing. It makes sense that your accuracy would decrease.
It also adds the gameplay mechanic of whether or not you should use the flexible hip-fire at an enemy, or try and take him down with the slow and clumsy, but accurate, ADS.

It's not a console/PC thing, because consoles have had ADS-less FPS games since forever.
It's a design choice.

Your CHARACTER is shooting differently but YOU are shooting the same.

 

[ZeD [taken 0]]

Okay, so when doesn't ADS have a gameplay effect?

If ADS didn't come up instantaneously and actually simulated that it takes some time to aim after you raise your sights. How you aim in any shooter is centering the free lock camera on the enemy and then shooting. Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate, which makes very little sense (outside of sniper rifles). Several PC FPSs function perfectly fine without ADS because of the mouse whereas console shooters need ADS for FPSs and over-the-shoulder shooting (for TPSs) to provide that sensitivity "switch" to allow you to fine tune your aim due to using a controller.

So it does have a gameplay effect.

"Regardless if you hip-fire or ADS, you're aiming in the same manner yet hip-fire is usually much less accurate"

Because you're not aiming in the same manner.
Without ADS you're shouldering the gun without looking through the sights, or you're literally hip-firing. It makes sense that your accuracy would decrease.
It also adds the gameplay mechanic of whether or not you should use the flexible hip-fire at an enemy, or try and take him down with the slow and clumsy, but accurate, ADS.

It's not a console/PC thing, because consoles have had ADS-less FPS games since forever.
It's a design choice.

Your CHARACTER is shooting differently but YOU are shooting the same.

No, I'm not.
I'm either aiming down accurately but clumsily, or I'm sacrificing accuracy for flexibility.
Again, it's a gameplay design choice, not something born out of necessity (same goes for consoles).