Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Phasmal]

But I'm sorry you feel that way about "cheap obvious pandering and sexism". But I'm curious as to how sexualizing your game is automatically discriminatory, or how not having an ideal role model for a female demographic is automatically misogynistic.

You don't see how making the women in your game nothing but sex objects with no personality just there to be gawped at and virtually shagged is misogynistic?

As has been addressed before, there is nothing wrong with sexy female characters. What is wrong is when `sexy` is the only thing available to women in games. Portraying women as cheap stupid stereotypes is sexist, no matter if the intent behind it is just to sell it to more dudes.

 

[need4snacks]

But I'm sorry you feel that way about "cheap obvious pandering and sexism". But I'm curious as to how sexualizing your game is automatically discriminatory, or how not having an ideal role model for a female demographic is automatically misogynistic.

You don't see how making the women in your game nothing but sex objects with no personality just there to be gawped at and virtually shagged is misogynistic?

As has been addressed before, there is nothing wrong with sexy female characters. What is wrong is when `sexy` is the only thing available to women in games. Portraying women as cheap stupid stereotypes is sexist, no matter if the intent behind it is just to sell it to more dudes.

No, I do not. Sexual objectification of a fictional character is not in of itself misogynistic.
The hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women can be manifested in sexual objectification, but it does not have to be.
There is no underlying message is God of War's sex scenes. They're kinda silly, some might say very immature, and they're definitely very sexual. But what they're not is an attempt at the developers to send a message across to the player that "this is all women are good for".

When a developer props up a sex object for a female character it is not the producer saying "This is how women ought to be!", it's "This is how females are portrayed within the context of our game." Again, intent matters for a lot more than what people give credit. If an action is racist, sexist, etc... then the author must also be racist, sexist, etc... But simply being perceived as such does not make the action so. You should be railing against those who are interpreting fantasy sexualization as what things ought to be, not the authors of innocent pandering.

Further more, it's just silly to group all the games ever made together and try to make a case that there is a trend of purposeful denial for pandering for women or more srs bsns female characters. It's not like all the game companies get together and go "LOL, Let's not have good female characters in any of our games this year!". You're seeing nothing more than the product of market forces. One should only expect that the demographic making and buying a product would appeal only to that demographic.
If more consumers purchased or demanded srs bsns games with srs bsns female characters, one would expect that kind of product to grow. In turn, if producers made more srs bsns games with srs bsns female characters, it would mean that more of those games would be made available, but it doesn't mean they will be purchased. That's not how markets work.

Now, understand - I would love to see more srs bsns games about srs bsns female characters. Who doesn't? But it isn't wrong that they don't exist in a greater quantity or quality. Understand what you're saying here - because something is not appealing to you at all, it's wrong.
Do you not see how terrible that is?

 

[Phasmal]

Now, understand - I would love to see more srs bsns games about srs bsns female characters. Who doesn't? But it isn't wrong that they don't exist in a greater quantity or quality. Understand what you're saying here - because something is not appealing to you at all, it's wrong.
Do you not see how terrible that is?

That might be terrible if that were anything close to what I was saying, but it is not.

This is another: What you've done/What you are type thing.

I have no idea if some devs are sexist, some probably are. That does not matter.
If they stick 1-dimensional stereotyped women in their games, their intent does not change it, and dev's know that. They are not stupid. When you stick a stereotype out there, it doesn't come with a sticker stating the intent of the creator. We shouldn't accept crappy sexist/racist stereotypes.

They are responsible for what they put out there. There is absolutely no reason you can't have a sexy but well developed female character but time and time again we get flat stereotypes.

As for GoW, thats just pandering. Pandering to a certain demographic which the gaming industry has focused on so strongly. They know this may be their largest market but is not at all exclusive. Female/minority gamers exist and are kind of tired of this balls.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

If gender of the main protagonist is stopping you from playing a game . You are doing it wrong . I guess authors who write books with a male protagonist hate women also . Oh not to mention movies with guys as the protagonist , they hate women also .

I mean really ... Why do people look for things to nitpick . I actually find you're claims rather sexist against men .

1. An overwhelming majority of video game protagonists are male.
2. Female characters often offer ridiculous amounts of fan service.
Pointing this out and complaining that the industry focuses on what guys want too much is not sexist.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Political correctness is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.

Yes i know what it means.

Gold star for going to Wikipedia. Now, since we can sum up political correctness as just being nice to people... why do you hate this exactly?

Meh, you have fun in your way, and I'll have it in mine. =) Actually, a fucking achievement system is a brilliant description for it!

I'm just of the opinion that sex is something natural, part of every day life. Sensationalizing it just feels like cheap pandering. I won't lie, I enjoy the occasional bit of fan service myself. But to use an earlier metaphor, I enjoy it in the same way I do junk food. It's nice to have now and again, but it's not really good for me in huge doses.

I think that's a fair reading of your playthrough - I'm just not sure that's the reason Bioware wrote Tali the way they did.

I don't disagree, but I don't always put a lot of stock in authorial intent. It could be my own egomania at work, but the reality of the game is how I roleplay it in my head. They're giving me the chance to tell my own story (within limitations, obviously), so I end up turning my interpretations into canon based on how I believe this incarnation of my character sees the world.

...I just realized that there's no way I can say any of that without sounding like a pretentious twit. I guess my point is that I'm not saying you're wrong, and there's always room for improvement, but I feel that individual experiences count for something as well. Even if authorial intent doesn't match the interpretation, there's something to be said for the latter.

Its not just being nice its not being allowed to express certain opinions because saying it will hurt someone's feeling.
If i say i dont understand why the a man would want it in the ass im homophobic.
If i say i say i dont like it when woman want a developer to make a new model re-record every word of dialogue and make every animation again just so you can play a female characters.

Do you understand that.
Its not "being nice to each other" its not being allowed to use free speech because it could hurt an oversenitive man/woman's/Man of any race's feelings.

You are allowed to say whatever you want. "Freedom of Speech" is not, however, "freedom to say whatever I want and having no consequences".

 

[need4snacks]

Now, understand - I would love to see more srs bsns games about srs bsns female characters. Who doesn't? But it isn't wrong that they don't exist in a greater quantity or quality. Understand what you're saying here - because something is not appealing to you at all, it's wrong.
Do you not see how terrible that is?

That might be terrible if that were anything close to what I was saying, but it is not.

This is another: What you've done/What you are type thing.

I have no idea if some devs are sexist, some probably are. That does not matter.
If they stick 1-dimensional stereotyped women in their games, their intent does not change it, and dev's know that. They are not stupid. When you stick a stereotype out there, it doesn't come with a sticker stating the intent of the creator. We shouldn't accept crappy sexist/racist stereotypes.

They are responsible for what they put out there. There is absolutely no reason you can't have a sexy but well developed female character but time and time again we get flat stereotypes.

As for GoW, thats just pandering. Pandering to a certain demographic which the gaming industry has focused on so strongly. They know this may be their largest market but is not at all exclusive. Female/minority gamers exist and are kind of tired of this balls.

That is exactly what you are saying. The developers know that their intent means nothing about their product? That's ridiculous. No it doesn't come with a sticker, but one shouldn't assume that it's an attempt to portray actual women. This is a fantasy universe in a fantasy setting - it doesn't not actually exist and as such we shouldn't jump to any conclusions as to the underlying meaning to something that isn't intended to carry weight on reality. Furthermore, you continue to define stereotypical sexual objectification as inherently sexist or misogynist, when in fact it is not. The maker of a game usually crafts the world how they want it to be in their game, not how they want actual reality. Underlying messages can exist in games, but it doesn't have to and for the most part it isn't; particularity when it's nothing more than just soft core (or hardcore) porn in your game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making your virtual universe how you desire it.

You're right, there is absolutely no reason to not have a sexy but well developed female character. But have you ever considered the fact that there is no obligation to so either? A creator has the full right to make whatever he/she wants - it's his/her product, and it shouldn't be looked at as immoral because it didn't tailor to your optimum desires for the characters within.

As for the demographic make-up of the consumer base, understand that these market forces are what is to be naturally expected. I'm not saying that it SHOULD be a male appeal dominated industry, but I'm not saying that it SHOULDN'T either. Market forces dictate that one should expect products to reflect a consumer base - that how it usually goes, and it shouldn't be looked at as offensive. Now, even if women made 99% of the consumer base for games and men only 1%, what would happen if all games were still pandering to men? Would that be wrong or discriminatory? No, it's not discriminatory to make a product that doesn't appeal to a group of people or to anybody. Now, the game industry might collapse with such a strategy, but that would be a natural expectation of the way markets work.

Just because it has no appeal to you, or you even dislike it's content, doesn't automatically make the product wrong. I can understand being frustrated about it, and desiring to increase its attraction towards your desires. But I cannot stand on the idea of accusing developers of being discriminatory because they are not producing anything I care for, or because they make things I do not like.

 

[Fr]anc[is]

Its not a generalisation if its true, unless of course you are denying that you would enjoy a life of debauchery. Are you a priest?

No I am not, I am a man. And real men require a bit more than a breathing sex toy and a high five from their buddies in 1st period the next morning. You'll see for yourself when you are older.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

Okay. This obviously bears repeating. Because thats NOT what I was saying, if you actually read my comment.
There is a difference between what you are and what you do. I never said the product was wrong or the developers are sexist. If you make a character which is a stupid sexist stereotype, it comes across as sexist (duh). Doesn't matter what you are. Matters what you did. Marketing to dudes doesn't automatically mean you have to make shitty female characters, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up that.

There may be no obligation to make good female characters but thats the point, who does it hurt to make them good? Nobody. And if you continue to make them shit, real women will look at them and go : `Thats shit`.

I never said game developers have to specifically cater to women. I just said it wouldnt hurt them to broaden their inclusiveness. If I thought games didnt have any appeal to me unless the developers gave a shit about female players, I probably wouldnt have any games to PLAY.

In short: I am not saying not to target games to men. I am saying you do not need to make female characters shit in order to do so.

 

[Nomanslander]

Yes! That's exactly what developers don't want, female gamers. I mean what company would want a broader demographic of customers paying good money for their product?

Anyways, the reason you won't see a lot of female protagonist in games, movies, even some genre's of books is because women aren't exactly the general demographic that likes those medias (certain genre of books too). Most gamers are white males between the ages of 14-35. If the general demographic was homosexual Swahili women between the ages of 90-135, most game protagonist would probably be the sort. It's not racism or sexism, it's knowing your audience, and if more females were willing to also join that audience more games would start catering to them.

 

[Phasmal]

and if more females were willing to also join that audience more games would start catering to them.

That's not strictly true. Look at Hollywood. If Hollywood is to be believed, black people don't watch movies. You want to agree with that?

Plus, look at the image the gaming industry puts out of itself (and our charming community which so welcomes female players), would you wanna join if you were a woman who knew little to nothing about gaming? It's not an easy thing. And there are female players in the audience, more than you would think.

 

[Nomanslander]

and if more females were willing to also join that audience more games would start catering to them.

That's not strictly true. Look at Hollywood. If Hollywood is to be believed, black people don't watch movies. You want to agree with that?

It's not about exclusion, it's about what the dominant general audience tends to be, and with movies that still tend to be white males between 14-35. Now if you haven't noticed movies today have already gone too far in trying to cater to everyone. You'll always find one token black person in a movie, and two women having a conversation about something other than men for 30 seconds just so the film can pass the Bechdel Test. Plus they'll throw in Jar Jar Binks like character for children. The movie will be PG-13 to fill more aisle even though the original work was intended for a R rating.

Even with all that, the movie will still try to cater mostly for males 14-35 years old because that's what generally has been accepted by everyone.

 

[Kahunaburger]

And there are female players in the audience, more than you would think.

^This.

Bioware is terrible at basically everything these days, but if there's one thing they do right, it's understanding that women play vidya gaems too.

The "games and gamers are actively hostile to women because not many women play the sorts of games that are actively hostile to them" is a bass-ackwards way of looking at the situation.

 

[Kahunaburger]

and if more females were willing to also join that audience more games would start catering to them.

That's not strictly true. Look at Hollywood. If Hollywood is to be believed, black people don't watch movies. You want to agree with that?

It's not about exclusion, it's about what the dominant general audience tends to be, and with movies that still tend to be white males between 14-35. Now if you haven't noticed movies today have already gone too far in trying to cater to everyone. You'll always find one token black person in a movie, and two women having a conversation about something other than men for 30 seconds just so the film can pass the Bechdel Test. Plus they'll throw in Jar Jar Binks like character for children. The movie will be PG-13 to fill more aisle even though the original work was intended for a R rating.

Even with all that, the movie will still try to cater mostly for males 14-35 years old because that's what general has been excepted by everyone.

Tyler Perry and his millions tell us that most of Hollywood saturation bombing 14-35 white males with movies made for them and only them might not be the brightest idea ever.

 

[need4snacks]

Snip.

Okay. This obviously bears repeating. Because thats NOT what I was saying, if you actually read my comment.
There is a difference between what you are and what you do. I never said the product was wrong or the developers are sexist. If you make a character which is a stupid sexist stereotype, it comes across as sexist (duh). Doesn't matter what you are. Matters what you did. Marketing to dudes doesn't automatically mean you have to make shitty female characters, so I'm not sure why you keep bringing up that.

There may be no obligation to make good female characters but thats the point, who does it hurt to make them good? Nobody. And if you continue to make them shit, real women will look at them and go : `Thats shit`.

I never said game developers have to specifically cater to women. I just said it wouldnt hurt them to broaden their inclusiveness. If I thought games didnt have any appeal to me unless the developers gave a shit about female players, I probably wouldnt have any games to PLAY.

In short: I am not saying not to target games to men. I am saying you do not need to make female characters shit in order to do so.

You don't see how making the women in your game nothing but sex objects with no personality just there to be gawped at and virtually shagged is misogynistic?

As has been addressed before, there is nothing wrong with sexy female characters. What is wrong is when `sexy` is the only thing available to women in games. Portraying women as cheap stupid stereotypes is sexist, no matter if the intent behind it is just to sell it to more dudes.

1 - Intent matters. What you are dictates what you do, they are not independent of each other. An action is defined by the intent of the author, not the perception of an observer to that action. Yet you continue to label sexual objectification as automatically discriminatory.
2 - I didn't say that marketing to dudes means you automatically should make shitty female characters. My argument was that a creator has totally freedom to do has he/she pleases, and that he/she has no obligation to satisfy anyone (deep female characters OR 'shitty' sexual objects) I also totally explained that it's warranted for you to feel anyway you want about a game in it's quality or appeal. Just as with the personal opinions of anyone else.

But when terms like misogyny and sexism are being thrown around, it becomes more than just complaining about it 'being shit' or wanting to be better. Such things are real problems in this world, and attempting to label actions as sexist or racist has broad and serious implications. It's one thing to criticize the gaming industry for not being which ever way you want it to be, it's another to try and demonize the gaming industry to solidify a position.

If the product is not wrong and the developers are not sexist, then the product cannot be misogynistic and the gaming industry cannot be either. The whole reason for this thread is about a possibility for some underlying tones of disdain for women as an explanation for the vast amounts of what some describe as 'cheap pandering' and 'lack of good representation'.

If this is not necessarily your personal outlook, then I apologize for assuming, but I have come across one to many fellow gamers who do.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I didn't say that marketing to dudes means you automatically should make shitty female characters. My argument was that a creator has totally freedom to do has he/she pleases, and that he/she has no obligation to satisfy anyone (deep female characters OR 'shitty' sexual objects) I also totally explained that it's warranted for you to feel anyway you want about a game in it's quality or appeal. Just as with the personal opinions of anyone else.

Hi, argument from the ME3 ending debate. What hath pseudo-intellectual game journalism wrought?

If the product is not wrong and the developers are not sexist, then the product cannot be misogynistic and the gaming industry cannot be either. The whole reason for this thread is about a possibility for some underlying tones of disdain for women as an explanation for the vast amounts of what some describe as 'cheap pandering' and 'lack of good representation'.

Someone does not have to be an avowed sexist to engage in sexist behavior. In fact, it's much more common for people to mindlessly reproduce sexist behavior that is encouraged by society. Game devs don't wake up in the morning and say "you know what, I feel like discouraging women from playing my games today." But they do engage in behaviors that create a hostile atmosphere towards women in their games.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

I find it just plain deceitful for a female fan of 'X' genre to claim that just because women make up 42% of the general gaming population, so now 'X' genre must now change to accommodate her. The overwhelming majority of that 42% of women might not even like or play 'X' genre at all, but instead might prefer 'W', 'Y' or 'Z' genres.

I recognise and sympathise with the original poster's frustration that more Action-RPGs don't do more to include the women who do enjoy them but not so much as to decree that henceforth all male player characters should be rendered down into boring, bland standardised unisex player wish-fullfillment vehicles.

 

[Nomanslander]

Tyler Perry and his millions tell us that most of Hollywood saturation bombing 14-35 white males with movies made for them and only them might not be the brightest idea ever.

That's another thing. It's not that Hollywood and the Game Industry has no real interest in capitalizing among other demographics, it's that they don't know how to. They don't have the practice. Most developers and film makers themselves are the young white males and trying to get such group to cater to anyone else besides themselves isn't exactly easy. You can be the biggest openly minded non biased objective white guy, but if I asked you to make a game for migrant Mexican workers you're going to be in over your head. And as hard as you try not to, chances are you might fuck up and put in something that that said group would find racist or simply disagreeable.

Tyler Perry in the end is a black himself. Of course he would know how to cater to his audience. But you know what's funny? I bet he would also know how to cater to young white males as well. Why? Because he's grown up in that culture for so long he's also a part of it and would know what to do.

Now, some of you might be thinking that I'm for all this. Well, I'm not. I'm not here to say this is right, I'm here to say that that's just how it is.