Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[DeadYorick]

I don't know if you have noticed, but most of the female protagonists don't have a love interest, like Lara Croft for example because they don't want straight men to feel uncomfortable.

Samus Aran did in Metriod Other M I think (I only heard that she was given a speaking role and a male lead to play off of, can anyone clarify?)

As well Lara Croft did have a semi romantic counterpart in The Angel of Darkness (the one no one likes and don't want to talk about) with Kurtis Trent, and believe it or not it actually felt realistic and didn't make me uncomfortable at all. There was also Larson being re-written in Tomb Raider Anniversary to be a slight romantic character for Lara (implied with the developer commentary during some of the levels he appears in.) But they never made it explicit or focused on it at any point in the game. This is a case where a romance can be implied but not shown, which happens a lot in games on the flipside with male protagonists.

I don't find the idea of a romance with a female lead uncomfortable. I do find the idea of a male writing one uncomfortable because I can foresee it would look unrealistic.

I think the bigger issue with it is that male developers don't exactly know how to write romances from the perspective of a female character. Thats more to do with the vast majority of developers being males, and the demographic still being very male dominated. In a marketing perspective for a game that revolves around violence, they are looking to cater to males significantly more. Whereas games such as the Sims are marketed toward women. With how much Downloadable content goes to downloadable outfits/houses/neighbourhoods etc. Until this changes and the hobby becomes less associated with socially awkward creepy males I don't foresee less objectification of females.

What does power have to do with image?

Power is seen through actions, not appearance.

Mentally people associate power through things like stance and appearance. A tall well built male looks more powerful and stronger to us then a scrawny short male. That is what he is referring to on a sexuality basis not on an actual logical basis.

Anyway I realized I didn't answer your question, if developers are "deliberately' discouraging women from gaming. It would be foolish to assume they would deliberately want to cut out a good sizeable chunk from their market. However a better question would be are they deliberately marketing their games toward males rather then women. If that was the question I would say yes, but I don't believe that a mainstream developer would say in a board meeting "Make the woman look more weaker, that way women wont play our games and we can put as much nudity in them as possible"

 

[Vault101]

Yes, but with the storyline how it is, it would basically be a man in a woman's body, which would be rather confusing for everyone involved...

As for KoA, well... that game's just plain fucked in so many ways, that it seems more like an accident than an intentional snub...

confusing?...nah

sure mabye they dont really want to "go there" (a man is a womans body? whats the first thing he does?) but I'd say its hardly confusin, it would only take a little maturity

 

[DeadYorick]

So, yeah, it's NOT a good example of treating female characters well...

I'd say it's more of an example of horrible writing and disrespect of the character. Though I'd be curious what the original japanese context would have been before they translated it.

 

[Major_Tom]

A little help for you.

Spoiler: What men (generalising) want a hero to look like

Spoiler: A man that is popular with women

Spoiler: What women want a hero to look like

Spoiler: A female character popular with men

Do you see the difference? tip...chest area.

I going to side with women on this one.

OT: I don't think they do it on purpose, they are just lazy (don't want to make new models, record new dialogue etc.), Also, Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

[Da Orky Man]

Does Karan S'Jet counts as a strong female lead? She's one of about three characters in the whole game, and certainly the only one you see on a regular basis or is one your side.

 

[Voltano]

The video game industry is still a young industry when compared to books or films, but unfortunately video games have had a lot of influence from these medias: Stories trying to create emotion like films, sound techniques from films, emphasis on writing from books, realistic avatars that may delve into the uncanny valley, etc. I know that games haven't done well with being appealing towards women (or any minority figure, such as Hispanics, Blacks, or Jews), but that might be due to the influence of other medias being targeted toward white heterosexual male.

I remember a survey being given to Black children on what they thought was a beautiful person, and the majority of them thought it was a White person because each film or video game shows this. Other games like BioWare's "Mass Effect 3" might allow you to modify the color or gender of Shepard to fit your image, but the marketing and box cover doesn't remind people walking by Wal-Mart of this feature. Part of the problem is lack of understanding these cultures or relying on stereotypes that may be offensive; like all women like "pink" or Native Americans only care about casinos or pagan-like beliefs.

The OP here stated that female avatars/protagonists don't have a love interest in these games/stories because it would make the male audience uncomfortable. I think the reason behind that is that it would clash with the tradition of one reward for going through a hero's journey is to get the girl. Lois Lane in the original "Superman" comics was only there to be saved and swoon over Superman, and a suggestive message about that seems to state that only men could acquire the ones they love. Other cultures are a little hesitant in believing women are capable of this; such as how some Japanese committee members are concerned that fictional women who take the sexual initiative toward men might turn them gay. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115173-Japanese-Censors-Sexually-Aggressive-Women-Turn-Kids-Gay]

 

[butternut]

Plus it's easy to please guys but it might be tricky to please girls. Guys basically want gears of war, ultra masculine men, with big loud guns etc

No. No we don't. I hate Gears of War for that very reason.

I think we need more Morrigan's and Jack's!

Um, more strong female characters? Yes, we do. But not those two. Of the two Jack is more interesting, but still. Morrigan is a royal ***** who insults you for doing anything "nice" even when it directly benefits you. And Jack is, well, psycho. And neither one is apparently able to wear a shirt.

If you want a good example from BioWare games, check out Wynne. She's old, so obviously not sexualized, can kick ass with the best of them, is basically a Zombie, and yet still flirts with both Ohgren and Alistair. She's one of the best examples breaking the female stereotype in gaming. She's strong, not a pin-up, yet still very much a woman.


I think a lot of the problem with females in games is due to the image the industry has of gamers. They perceive us as greasy nerds, hiding in our parents basement, so they think any woman has to have DD cups to keep our attention. I think if the developers realize there is more call for true female characters they'll start showing up more. Good example is FemShep finally making into Mass Effect's Marketing.

I completely agree with this. I think out of all the female party members in DA:O Wynne was the most interesting. Just through talking to her you could see how she was an example of a woman who was strong and assertive without having to take her top off. She isn't a romance option because she doesnt need to be and to me that just makes her character stronger. She is able to resist that Grey Warden ass where everyone else, from the Elves to the Priestesses, clearly wants it.

On topic. As a man, it's difficult to see how women are treated differently when it comes to games. As stated earlier in this thread though, no matter how I see it, it's unlikely to change until the message gets through to the devs.

 

[Khada]

In some cases the reasons for this are legitimate. In many they are not, rather, they are excuses for poor/neglectful game design. Eventually we and the industry will realise this and take action to remedy the situation.

Constructive posts like this are good.

 

[Soxafloppin]

Nope, women are potential customers too, so discouraging them would be counter productive.

 

[barbzilla]

I dont see why this is such a big deal with people lately, seems some wont rest until everything in the world is politicaly correct, and how dull it would be. Does a character have to have the same gender or sexual preference as you for you to identify with their story or problems? If so then you are probably focusing on the wrong things. Games are mainly targeted at males, bang out all the statitics you want about how there are many female gamers but the fact remains the main core audience percieved by the public and devs is males between 16 and 25 be that the real situation or not. So over sexualised women and tough male leads are going no where.

I think if you read further into the discussion you will find that the OP doesn't feel she "needs" to play a character of the same sex or sexual orientation. She just wants the fairer half of our species to be treated as useful and intelligent beings apart from sex appeal and reproduction purposes.

 

[Voulan]

Well, they haven't done a good job of discouraging women from buying games so far. I remember on the official Thief series forum the gender split of the fans (done in an actual poll) was around 40 women to 60 men - that's almost 50% either way.

As a female, I prefer to play games with female protagonists simply because it's something different. And lord knows we need some diversity in our AAA titles these days, what with the hundreds of sequels and prequels that get churned out yearly.

We're still a young world coming to terms with equality and tolerance. There's a long way to go yet. But if games need to lead the way, fantastic - it'll get Fox News off of our backs.

 

[Westaway]

1) I serriously doubt it they're doing it on purpose
2) Why should they bother catering to women? They're still the large minority in hardcore gamers. What if they can't write for a female main character, but they can for a male? They should go out of their way to please the 1% who might buy their game?

 

[Kahunaburger]

I dont see why this is such a big deal with people lately, seems some wont rest until everything in the world is politicaly correct, not sexist and how dull nice it would be.

Fixed.

Nope, women are potential customers too, so discouraging them would be counter productive.

You'd think that, but then game designers continue to shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

I barely see any black people in games.

Another legitimate problem.

 

[joe-h2o]

This is where I love(d?) BioWare, particularly in Mass Effect. If your Shepard was a woman... No one really cared. Not even the Krogan. When I headbutted Uvenk, the Shaman thought I was awesome, and this is from a tribal species that keeps its women separated from its men. No one was surprised that I could do awesome things even though I played as a woman, no one talked down to me, no one got all feminist on me and praised me for being the alpha female the galaxy needed, no one ever said, "You go girl!" and no one ever turned on "Bad Reputation" while I was being Renegade FemShep. It was the first time I really felt like a female character was being treated as a perfect equal instead of being looked down upon, patronized, or over-praised because she was a woman.

Actually, I'd argue that they *should* have made something of it if their backstory has such a culture.

For example, Fallout: New Vegas handles it very well. If you play as a female character and interact with Caesar's Legion then your experience is different than if you have a male character. The quests are the same and so on, but the responses you get specifically highlight that faction's extreme sexism.

If they were simply to ignore it and treat you as a gender-neutral character then I would read that as the devs simply allowing you to pick male or female at the start just to keep people happy, and not have it affect the game play at all. The fact that it does have an impact is what makes it interesting.

To go further with that, F:NV also features strong female characters (often in positions of authority) as NPCs, which demonstrates that the devs themselves aren't falling into the typical trap that says "we're being sensitive to women, since you can choose your gender, but if you pick female you'll never see anyone else in the whole game world with XX chromosomes".

I have not played ME3 (or any of the ME franchise), so I can't speak to how women were treated as a whole, but I would feel slightly jarred out of the experience if I was playing a female character and the fact wasn't mentioned when interacting with a misogynistic group (eg, Krogan, Caeser's Legion, Klingons etc), even if it is to point out that they have contempt for you for being "inferior" and then proceed to hand you the quest reluctantly.

(disclaimer, I'm male, but often play female characters).

 

[HellbirdIV]

I don't think any developer deliberately would discourage anyone from buying their game.

Even if they design a game "to appeal to males", that's because they have the misguided belief that males will be more likely to buy games with tits in them (as opposed to, as most men I know who play video games would approach the subject, simply finding nice tits to be a bonus on top of a gaming series they like for other, less retarded reasons) and that women just don't buy the kind of game they make.

Choosing to target a specific demographic does not always mean discriminating against other demographics, at least not on purpose.

Sexy women in games aren't sexy to discourage female players who might be turned off by the ridiculous sexualization, but are simply there to look pretty for adolescent boys who, most likely, won't look at them for that long since they have internet access and can just look at tits online if they need to fap.

I suppose all in all, just an unfortunate coincidence, yes?

 

[axeaxe]

It always striked me as extremely strange that the entire "racist"/"sexist" stuff is usually brought first, and not last, which it really should be.

Not doing what most of your customers want to see is a suicide.
Providing extra "options" is resource-consuming.

Simple stuff really. If you provide a game fully comfortable for males (in case they are your major demographic) you only risk to "piss off" only the persons(usually females) that find the absence of female main character "offensive", which usually is a minority in already minority .

So in case where you need to apply a lot of extra resources(lite x2 times the VA, x2 LIs, so forth) to please insignificant(numerically) part of customer base may be FAR less cost effective than to simply ignore the issue. Again simple maths.

It is same every ware. It is like airlines, they provide direct flights only for flights where significant enough number of pasagers to fill planes, and the small number of pasagers will have to change planes multiple times to get to where they need.

Again if devs deliver good experience for most they can legitimately get away with "we had to prioritize our resources" argument which is true in general.

You can get away pretty fine with the "we didn`t include female/gay/lesbian LIs, because we were focused on the main game".

Trying to get away with "our ending(hello ME3)&parts of story sucked because we were putting our limited time and resourses into pleasing small minorities(hello again ME3)" is by FAAAAAR
harder.
Granted BW doesn`t do that, but you probably would get that a quite chunk of their fans are thinking "they bothered to put as may options for females,gays,lesbians, but they didn`t bothered to make a proper ending? what a kind of BS is that?!".
Which kinda makes it worth for the entire "equal representation" motion picture.