Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?
- Thread starter Moonlight Butterfly
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Something of a tangent, but what would you consider "strong female characters" in gaming? Better yet, can you think of any "strong female characters" that aren't primarily defined by their actual strength/ass kicking ability? I mean, I enjoy Ellen Ripley and Buffy Summers as much as the next guy, but it seems like every time we go to the "strong female character" well in gaming "strong" is defined by "how much ass can they kick". I want more Carmela Sopranos and fewer Lisbeth Salanders in gaming. More female characters where the "strength" comes from nuance and complexity, and not just from a laundry list of superheroic abilities. It seems like we never get a good, well rounded female villain. Or anti-hero. Or anything other than "tough babe".xXxJessicaxXx said:
Azure-Supernova said:
Zoë Castillo, April Ryan, Faith Connors, Chell, the lady from Fahrenheit, Jade from BG&E, Zoe from L4D, Cate Archer, Kate Walker from Syberia and probably more
OP: I think you're right. I don't think it's deliberate, but particularly with those examples you mentioned there is a definite bias. Perhaps some of it could be explained by laziness - having to write, code and voice-act things for both male and female characters does increase workload, at a time when publishers are pressuring developers to pop out games faster and cheaper.
There is something to be said, also, for the objectification argument. I've heard it described as "Male characters are designed to appeal to men as someone they'd want to be. Female characters are designed to appeal to men as someone they'd want to sleep with."
I don't think it's necessarily harmful to make female characters attractive, even specifically sexual; what I do think becomes harmful is when there's such a broad gap between the portrayals of male and female characters. (Prime example: the idiotic cleavage window on the average suit of female armour in games. And movies. And on TV. And in comics.)
Actually, you know what? Stick a bit of code in there. Have two versions of each set of armour, and two character models for each character. Let the player select their sex and orientation along a five-point scale - all straight, mostly straight, either way, mostly gay, all gay - and simply interpolate the outfits and character models so the characters they're attracted to are physically attractive while the others are plainer. That way the "romance options" are attractive - objectified, if you like - regardless of sex, while the others aren't.
I am joking, of course, but at least part of me thinks that it could work... ;-)
There is something to be said, also, for the objectification argument. I've heard it described as "Male characters are designed to appeal to men as someone they'd want to be. Female characters are designed to appeal to men as someone they'd want to sleep with."
I don't think it's necessarily harmful to make female characters attractive, even specifically sexual; what I do think becomes harmful is when there's such a broad gap between the portrayals of male and female characters. (Prime example: the idiotic cleavage window on the average suit of female armour in games. And movies. And on TV. And in comics.)
Actually, you know what? Stick a bit of code in there. Have two versions of each set of armour, and two character models for each character. Let the player select their sex and orientation along a five-point scale - all straight, mostly straight, either way, mostly gay, all gay - and simply interpolate the outfits and character models so the characters they're attracted to are physically attractive while the others are plainer. That way the "romance options" are attractive - objectified, if you like - regardless of sex, while the others aren't.
I am joking, of course, but at least part of me thinks that it could work... ;-)
I think it's silly that they didn't want to include a female protagonist in AC3 cause of the time period.
AC1 pretty much threw away the concept of accurate historical fiction when the Assassins you played as were hardly motivated by Islam. In fact Looking through the script shows no mention of of any significant religious icons or words (guess they had to play it safe).
More silly is the Team Ico throwing out the idea of female protagonist cause "players would see her underwear if she's climbing with a dress/skirt" to which me and the rest of the Escapist replied "girls can't wear pants?"
Women in gaming has been on my mind for a while now. Particularly cause I disliked how Feminist Frequency decided to pick a fight with Bayonetta,
AC1 pretty much threw away the concept of accurate historical fiction when the Assassins you played as were hardly motivated by Islam. In fact Looking through the script shows no mention of of any significant religious icons or words (guess they had to play it safe).
More silly is the Team Ico throwing out the idea of female protagonist cause "players would see her underwear if she's climbing with a dress/skirt" to which me and the rest of the Escapist replied "girls can't wear pants?"
Women in gaming has been on my mind for a while now. Particularly cause I disliked how Feminist Frequency decided to pick a fight with Bayonetta,
You don't think it's possible to state agreement and still specify points of disagreement? You don't think it's possible to agree partially?Zachary Amaranth said:
The phenomenon clearly exists. But I don't think there's a darkened room somewhere filled with Hefners and Dukes Nukem saying "Now, how can we keep those silly women from playing our games or feeling in any way empowered?"
I agree with the OP's analysis of the phenomenon as it exists. I disagree with the belief that it's deliberate.
That's how.
When the core point is the one you're disagreeing with, there's a pretty big freaking issue there.awmperry said:
But good job trying to shift it to a simple issue of partial agreement.
Personally, I would rather have no women at all instead of useless women who are just there for eye-candy or "gender representation" or to get kidnapped and move the plot along. A movie example, but when my friends and I watched Wrath of the Titans (in an otherwise empty theater) we kept saying, "Why is this woman even here? She has no combat abilities or anything, and she has no purpose other than to be a prize for the guy at the end." And sometimes you end up in a similar situation in games. I do not care whether I am playing a female character or not, just as long as we aren't getting a bunch of pointless females taking up space just so that they can stand around being female.
Maybe it's more difficult for male devs & writers to come up with convincing female viewpoints / actions / story arcs. I'm fairly sure I'd struggle to put something together based on what men want because I'd just aim for the stereotype that is tits and arse. I don't mean that in a belittling sense at all by the way, just that I don't think the weighting towards male protagonists is a considered slight against us ladies.
No, it makes complete sense. Women weren't allowed to do jack shit back then, Indians still could. Anyhow, to answer your question, no I don't think they are trying to discourage women to game, instead I think they are trying to build their games for a male audience. The difference is slight, but its still their.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Don't get me wrong, the current situation certainly reeks of laziness and lack of concern for female gamers. The remedy is only a focus group away, as you noted. However, since they can't be bothered to do even that and they can't do it on their own for the reasons I stated, then someone else has to do something about it. We can continue to scream on deaf ears or the affected group can take new, different measures.EclipseoftheDarkSun said:
The OP's original post in its entirety:Zachary Amaranth said:
The only mention of a deliberate conspiracy is in the title; the OP's analysis itself never mentions intent, just analyses the problem.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Now, answer me this: why are you so keen to find something to pull me up on? You clearly aren't interested in addressing any of my points, just trying to find something where you can imagine you've tripped me up.
Address the points or go away. I'm not interested in playing verbal badminton with someone who just wants to troll me.
Wouldn't your post have worked better if your examples were from gaming instead of film? And the "kitchen" line sort of ruins the effect of the rest of the sarcasm by cheapening it too much.yogibbear said:
Personally, I disagree with the OP that companies are "deliberately" discouraging women gamers, though she has a more recent post in which she also questions her use of that word. I certainly don't agree with her that the Witcher and Risen franchises are sexist; the women who play prominent roles in those games are tough and independent without being one-dimensional. No, they're not the leads, but there are story reasons for that, and I don't think every instance of (possibly) short-sighted development is the same thing as deliberate sexism.
Nevertheless, I agree that conditions in the industry and its various fan communities still tend to favor the male demographic, at least in so-called "core" game development. I wouldn't say that it's worse than before, though; I don't recall arcades as havens of female empowerment in the 1980s even though there were definitely women gamers who could trounce any challenger.
Chell is not a character. She's a cipher.teh_gunslinger said:
I'd argue the same is basically true of Zoe from L4D as well, although I suppose she gets the occasional snippet of dialogue to at least give the illusion of a hastily sketched personality.
meh, its easier to make a grey two dimension female character SOMEWHAT useful towards your game by adding big breasts to them. in the case of a grey two dimensional male character, they just stay grey (adding breasts doesnt help).Phasmal said:
now, while some series are notorious for going extreme (ninja gaiden), honestly i would like to see more strong female characters with one exception.
im tired of the industry trying to give a strong female character by making a ultra feminist. its annoying, with jokes straight out of the V monologue to the point where i can predict all of her lines. it kinda reminds me of Sam Carter from stargate SG-1 tv series. when it first started, she was the "just because my reproductive organs on the inside yadda yadda yadda", then she became this smart wonderful character later on. she went from "im on this show because im a female" to "im on this show because im awesome, deal with it"
Alex vance, from the halflife series, is one of my favorite characters, let alone female character. quite honestly, femshep seems to fit the game better than maleshep in the mass effect series, especially for the renegade path (i dont know why). morrigan from dragon age one was great, she can break apart a man's soul with just a few words (not even magical ones!).
there has definitely been significant improvement in regards to this field. i would personally like to see more memorable female characters full of personality. course that doesnt mean i want my eye candy COMPLETELY removed, i am a guy after all.
although, now that i think about it.....if i reflect on all of my favorite VILLAINS, women are not on that list.
the funny thing is that chell is basically the female version of gordan freeman, who was labeled as the best hero of all time on some gaming site poll.BloatedGuppy said:
i personally liked all of the characters from left 4 dead 1. now, rochelle from l4d2 on the other hand was extremely bland.