Are mainstream devs deliberately discouraging women from gaming?

[Kahunaburger]

Of course, they like the game. But which part?

They aren't all that interested in "progression" - for most part taking it very very lightly. So what other reason is there to play the game if you aren't "playing the game"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test

The players you encountered would be considered "socializers" by this system. Both male and female players can be "socializers," and both female and male players can fall into other personality archetypes as well.

I agree. It's just that I contend that most female WoW players are socializers, because that is what I personally observed. I see that as a sign that the core gameplay mechanics might not be engaging them.

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

 

[Vault Citizen]

In regards to the Assasins Creed example of the original post I wouldn't have introduced a female main character either. I imagine it would be very uncomfortable for Desmond to be synced up with a body of a different gender, his other ancestors have all looked close enough to him for a smooth transition so there haven't been any problems there.

Another way to think about it, it causes the program to run less efficiently if Desmond hits someone he isn't meant to, think what it will do to the program if Desmond finds that he suddenly has breasts.

 

[deadish]

Establish generalizations based on scientific data rather than your own extremely limited assumptions? Just a thought.

Ah. And "scientific data" has point out that there aren't many female gamers. If there were we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

That's the answer you're going to give me with a straight face? I'm not sure how to react to that just yet, but none of the possible reactions are a positive one.

These are my personal observations and I present them as such and nothing else. And what do you mean "none positive"?

That's a bit rich coming from a guy who's using a 1950's model of what he thinks women want.

I don't know what women want, I wish I did. But I do know it's different most of the time from what I as a guy want.

If that's the fight you want to start, you're going to fucking lose.

You started it me not me.

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Benjamin Disraeli

You're talking to a mentalist. I know way better than you that it's possible to make numbers mean whatever you want them to. Numbers are useless without qualitative research to put them into context and give them meaning, something you have completely failed to produce.

I repeat myself. If gaming isn't male dominated, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Do you see posts like "Are film makers deliberately discouraging women from watching movies?" ?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What part of "common traits" do you not understand? No one is exactly the same as another, but certain groups of people can have similarities.

Your assertion is that "the desire to play games to play games", or in this specific case, the desire to progress in World of Warcraft, is a biological trait commonly shared by men, and not by women. Apparently our penises make us want to raid? And you used your anecdotal experience as evidence for this assertion. And for some reason, you can't understand why people are laughing.

And when did I assert that ALL women play to socialize? Stop attacking a strawman.

You asserted that they don't "play the game to play the game", and speculated that socialization could be the reason instead. It's the age old "No True Scotsman" fallacy as applies to gaming. You've even trotted out the timeworn CoD/Sims routine in an attempt to give the argument a backbone.

 

[deadish]

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

And my opinions are presented as such. They are opinions formed from personal observation, which I think I'm entitled to have.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into what I'm writing here. ><

 

[deadish]

Your assertion is that "the desire to play games to play games", or in this specific case, the desire to progress in World of Warcraft, is a biological trait commonly shared by men, and not by women. Apparently our penises make us want to raid? And you used your anecdotal experience as evidence for this assertion. And for some reason, you can't understand why people are laughing.

WAT?!

I assert it was it was not shared by MOST women and that conclusion is base that of my personal observations. You can take my opinion anyway you like, feel free to disagree. But I believe I have to right it.

You asserted that they don't "play the game to play the game", and speculated that socialization could be the reason instead. It's the age old "No True Scotsman" fallacy as applies to gaming. You've even trotted out the timeworn CoD/Sims routine in an attempt to give the argument a backbone.

WTF you talking about?

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

And my opinions are presented as such. They are opinions formed from personal observation, which I think I'm entitled to have.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into what I'm writing here. ><

I've never been sympathetic to the "so what if my opinion has nothing to do with reality? It's my opinion, dagnabbit!" defense.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

WAT?!

I assert it was it was not shared by MOST women and that conclusion is base that of my personal observations. You can take my opinion anyway you like, feel free to disagree. But I believe I have to right it.

No one is taking away your "rights", Rosa Parks. You stated your opinion and were not marched off to jail for it. Rights have nothing to do with it. If you don't want your opinions challenged, you can start by not airing them in public forums.

 

[deadish]

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

And my opinions are presented as such. They are opinions formed from personal observation, which I think I'm entitled to have.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into what I'm writing here. ><

I've never been sympathetic to the "so what if my opinion has nothing to do with reality? It's my opinion, dagnabbit!" defense.

I'm relating my personal experience and offering a conclusion I have drawn from this experiences and that's all I'm doing. I don't really see a problem with that.

Not to mention, you guys are arguing from personal anecdotes too. Pot calling kettle black much?

 

[deadish]

Oh, I wish you could see the shit-eating grin on my face right now.

As of 2006, 62% of all online gamers who played on a consistent basis are... women. However, 70% of them play as male characters and never reveal the truth about their gender. Por que? Because they don't generally feel very welcome in a male-dominated environment.

Online gamers. Ah.

And that disproves my view that most females gamers play for socialization how?

If the first thing that leaps to mind when you think of interacting with women is WoW, that doesn't inspire a lot of positive mental images, now does it, sparky?

What are you talking about? What image?

There are ways to find out, you know.

I know. That's how I know they are different.

And you're still going to lose.

OK. Whatever man. LOL

That is a can of worms you don't want to open with me. I am a filmmaker and I guarantee I know movies and the industry way better than you do.

For now, I will say that movies that target women as an audience specifically are in the extreme minority because Hollywood mistakenly believes that adolescent boys and men are where all the money is. This is bullshit, but that's "conventional wisdom" for you.

Well, the bean counters disagree with you. I don't think you are in any position to argue with them, since they are the ones that have intimate knowledge of the "movement of the money".

As for women target movies, fortunately they aren't very expensive to make - at least I think they aren't. As long as it's profitable they will get made.

Don't bullshit a bullshitter. Opinions are only as good as what you back them up with. You don't want your flimsy, poorly supported opinions to be criticized? Don't open your mouth.

I will open my mouth if I like.

If you don't agree with what I say, you are free to do that. But it's not my problem. I don't give you shit for your opinions.

 

[deadish]

The fact that it's bullshit.

Your opinion. I have no problem with that.

Name one. Go ahead. Point to the personal anecdotes we have used to refute your arguments.

Point to the "scientific data" you have used to refute my opinion?

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, unless you did a detailed survey about gender and playstyle of an SRS of WoW players, your personal observations don't really give you anything you can generalize.

And I'd submit that a MMO with chat, team quests, and emotes most certainly provides several core mechanics that cater to socializers.

And my opinions are presented as such. They are opinions formed from personal observation, which I think I'm entitled to have.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into what I'm writing here. ><

I've never been sympathetic to the "so what if my opinion has nothing to do with reality? It's my opinion, dagnabbit!" defense.

I'm relating my personal experience and offering a conclusion I have drawn from this experiences and that's all I'm doing. I don't really see a problem with that.

Other than the fact that basing your opinions on generalizing your very non-general personal experiences is only slightly more accurate than picking your opinions at random?

Not to mention, you guys are arguing from personal anecdotes too. Pot calling kettle black much?

[citation needed]

 

[deadish]

OK, I'm outnumbered here and this is getting tiring. [1]

I posted my personal experience with WoW and the conclusions I have drawn from said experience. That is all.

I would be happy to hear your experiences and how you came to your conclusions. You know trade data points, even if they are just personal personal anecdotes.

Why you guys are attacking me like I called your mum a slut ... I seriously have no idea.

Other than the fact that basing your opinions on generalizing your very non-general personal experiences is only slightly more accurate than picking your opinions at random?

When did I claim it was accurate? I'm well aware of my own fallibility.

I'm just here to share what I experienced and my own view on things.

Truth be told. Like most internet arguments, I expect it to end on a "agree to disagree" note.

Where all the taunts and accusations about my supposed poor moral character comes from. I have no idea.

[1] What? It's fucking tiring conversing with half a dozen people you know.

 

[Vault Citizen]

Another way to think about it, it causes the program to run less efficiently if Desmond hits someone he isn't meant to, think what it will do to the program if Desmond finds that he suddenly has breasts.

That I'd pay to see.

I suddenly had a scary thought "Achievement Unlocked - Honk"