Are men finished? Will our new female overlords be kind?

[cobra_ky]

I'm sorry for any offense, but from what I understood of her comment, she was saying that woman could not possibly rape, my point is that new article. A personal attack would be saying that *note this is not serious, and only a example* that I was going to shoot her, of course I did not nor did I say I was going to. It was uncalled for because it was only showing a article is, within itself, uncalled for. So you either didn't understand or you took some offense, either case, that was not directed towards you, and sorry if you did.

Calling someone a "twat" is a personal attack, 'attack' meaning a denigrating insult, not an actual physical threat.

Her comment was in the context of discussing how much each gender is affected by various acts oppression and brutality. While there are situations in which men get the short end of the stick, women are victimized by rape far, far more often. that's not to say that all rape victims are women and all perpetrators are men, but by far the most common scenario is one in which a man rapes a woman.

 

[b3nn3tt]

Well, I can't really argue with that one. Unfortunately it's one of those areas where not an awful lot can actually be done. Things are also not helped by the fact that if ever anyone suggests how women might take measures to protect themselves they are accused of blaming the victim. In an ideal world, women should be able to dress and act the way they want without fear of being sexually assaulted. Unfortunately, there are people out there that would take advantage of opportunities to do so, so it may be necessary for women to take precautionary measures.

How about, say, telling men not to rape? Because ultimately, women can never solve that by themselves; it's almost entirely up to you all.

I'd say that actually that the vast majority of men abhor rapists just as much as women do. You're taking a minority of men (rapists) and then putting the blame on the rest of men. As I said, it's not an ideal world. The vast majority of people think that murder is terrible, for example, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens.

I'll agree that rape isn't taken as seriously by the police as it ought be, but that's an entirely different issue. It also doesn't help that it becomes something of a grey area when alcohol is involved. If a sober guy takes advantage of a drunk girl then that is clearly rape, but when both parties have been drinking it gets a bit murky.

 

[b3nn3tt]

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Sure, yeah, I'm not going to argue that women shouldn't be careful and watch each others' backs. My friends and I do that all the time; in fact, I think most women try to be cautious (or at least they've certainly been told time and again what to do and not do, even if they don't live up to it 100%.) But where it gets victim-blaming is when the precautions fail or a girl forgets/screws up/gets tired of worrying all the time and then someone rapes her -- and the first response is "well, why did you let that happen? Why were you drinking? Why did you wear that skirt?" and the like.

It's like looking at a bunch of lions circling a group of wildebeest and yelling out things like "hey wildebeest! Bunch up more! Keep your horns low! Gah, don't expose your rump like that you dumb critter!" and then when one of them eventually gets dragged off you say "well of course that lion ate you, you left your drink unattended!" (yeah, that metaphor broke down... ;p) The real problem is that guys are told it's okay to act like lions and try to pick off the young or stupid or weak (or just plain unlucky) prey -- the problem is the whole model of "sex = hunting" where women have to take extraordinary measures to protect themselves from men who don't consider them equal humans beings deserving respect. Just because a guy manages to drag a girl off into the underbrush and rip her intestines out (hey, my metaphor's back!) doesn't mean she did anything wrong; it means that that guy is a rapist predator and his gut-chomping behavior is what should be focused on.

The otherwise-reasonable advice of "watch your drink" etc. becomes victim-blaming because the whole culture around rape and sex is focused on blaming the victim, and the advice just feeds into that. Rape trials turn into careful analyses of exactly how foolish and delicious the wildebeest was, rather than on how viciously and cheerfully the lion attacked her. If our culture reacted to rapes by turning to the rapist and saying "what the hell, guy? Why would you do that??" instead of asking the victim how she "let" it happen, then women would probably be less defensive about hearing the same advice again.

(And if you think that "change the entire culture" sounds like a frustrating task... YOU'RE TELLING ME! XD)

I agree, there are a lot of problems when women try to report rape. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to actually prove it was rape and not consensual sex. This is exacerbated when alcohol is involved. Like I've just said to someone else, when a sober guy takes advantage of a drunk girl, that's clearly wrong, but when both parties have been drinking things become a little less clear. I think one of the main problems is that, because the woman chose to get drunk, her actions are still her responsibility. It's here that I think the major problem kicks in; if a woman goes back to a guy's place after a night out, he will be expecting sex, whereas she might change her mind. In this scenario, I fear that most guys, especially if they've been drinking, don't really want to miss out on some tasty wildebeest meat, so will pressure the girl into sex.

And that, I think, is where the change really needs to happen. It needs to be made clear that people can change their minds about sex, whereas guys in these situations I think tend to feel entitled because the girl has come back to their place. Of course, the whole sex=hunting thing is also a problem, but I fear that that tends to be the nature of things when people are in bars/clubs and looking for a one-night stand.

I also think you raise a good point about the advice. It does seem that it's only advice until something actually happens, and then it becomes a list of reasons why the woman could have avoided being eaten by a lion (wait, what?). And I completely agree that that's not right. It shouldn't become 'well, here's what you did wrong, what did you expect would happen?' It should be 'that's terrible, let's go and get this terrible man.' I think that the main problem here is the police attitude to rape, because it really doesn't seem that rape is taken anywhere near as seriously as it should be.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'd say that actually that the vast majority of men abhor rapists just as much as women do. You're taking a minority of men (rapists) and then putting the blame on the rest of men. As I said, it's not an ideal world. The vast majority of people think that murder is terrible, for example, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens.

I'd disagree with that. There's a large slab of men who hate rape, of course, but there's a massive amount of men that aren't rapists themselves, but who are content to tolerate it. Plenty of people like to stick their head in the sand and ignore unsavoury problems, or go one step further and claim it was the victim's fault (so that it doesn't happen to "good" people)...or who think it's funny or sexy.

Of course, that's far different from actually committing rapes, but it goes along way to explain why rape is so common and conviction so rare.

 

[Caverat]

Do I need to remind you that is not a trial, but a witch hunt? Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Considering this is on the internet, I can say this isn't the middle ages. A trial is a trial, not some carnival of humiliation. Even then, there is some statistics that rape accusations are being abused in an attempt to ruin a person's reputation. No one bothers to step back and use their brain, and jump the gun regardless of the harm it causes. Even juries are faulty, driven by mere emotion rather than the evidence at hand.

Even now emotional fervor strips rights, destroys lives, and causes paranoia.

My fault for not elaborating, I meant for that kind of treatment after their guilt is established. I probably should have left out the use of the word 'Trial', used 'convict' instead.

As far as the false accusations, that is a crime, isn't it? If its not, it should be.

I'm by no means a legal expert, sorry if I gave the impression that I thought I was.

I'd disagree with that. There's a large slab of men who hate rape, of course, but there's a massive amount of men that aren't rapists themselves, but who are content to tolerate it. Plenty of people like to stick their head in the sand and ignore unsavoury problems, or go one step further and claim it was the victim's fault (so that it doesn't happen to "good" people)...or who think it's funny or sexy.

Of course, that's far different from actually committing rapes, but it goes along way to explain why rape is so common and conviction so rare.

Calling shenanigans to that claim that there is a massive amount of men who, while not conducting rapes, are tolerant of them. I counter with the claim that there is a massive amount of women who secretly want to be raped, so they let it happen.

There, a statement that is just as accurate, and offensive.

 

[b3nn3tt]

I'd say that actually that the vast majority of men abhor rapists just as much as women do. You're taking a minority of men (rapists) and then putting the blame on the rest of men. As I said, it's not an ideal world. The vast majority of people think that murder is terrible, for example, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happens.

I'd disagree with that. There's a large slab of men who hate rape, of course, but there's a massive amount of men that aren't rapists themselves, but who are content to tolerate it. Plenty of people like to stick their head in the sand and ignore unsavoury problems, or go one step further and claim it was the victim's fault (so that it doesn't happen to "good" people)...or who think it's funny or sexy.

Of course, that's far different from actually committing rapes, but it goes along way to explain why rape is so common and conviction so rare.

I would disagree. Also, it's impossible to claim that it;s the victim's fault without admitting that a rape actually took place. I think what is more likely is that people see their friends leave a club with a girl they've met there. I think it's generally assumed in that situation that the pair are going to have sex, and if their friend tells them that they had sex then they are likely to believe that that's what happened. If the woman then claims rape, people are more likely to believe their friend. I don't think that's the same as ignoring the problem.

The main issue as I see it is that it's extremely difficult to prove that it was rape and not consensual sex. As I said, if people leave a club together and go back to someone's place, the assumption is that they will have sex. This is not to say that that's right, but that's what people assume. I think that what likely then happens is that the woman doesn't want sex, but the guy feels entitled. That is the biggest problem as I see it.

 

[Caverat]

Its not a crime. If your accused of rape, you are basically blacklisted. You cant wipe that off, and you cannot jail someone. You get a small amount of cash (if you take the person to court over defamation of character), but that wont get you work or anything. It basically means your life is over, and the person who ruined your life gets nothing but a slap on the wrist. This is why emotion is so dangerous, people jump the gun without using reason and logic. Even a conviction does not mean he may have actually done it as juries are prone to go by emotion than by healthy skepticism and evidence.

Hell, American courts resemble the courts of the Salem witch trials than anything else. The juries just makes things worse. Its a literal cluster fuck of pure emotional fervor.

I agree with you, that isn't right. The justice system would definitely be an excellent application for AIs. Reasonable doubt seems to be forgotten in some cases, at least in the court of public opinion.

I would disagree. Also, it's impossible to claim that it;s the victim's fault without admitting that a rape actually took place. I think what is more likely is that people see their friends leave a club with a girl they've met there. I think it's generally assumed in that situation that the pair are going to have sex, and if their friend tells them that they had sex then they are likely to believe that that's what happened. If the woman then claims rape, people are more likely to believe their friend. I don't think that's the same as ignoring the problem.

The main issue as I see it is that it's extremely difficult to prove that it was rape and not consensual sex. As I said, if people leave a club together and go back to someone's place, the assumption is that they will have sex. This is not to say that that's right, but that's what people assume. I think that what likely then happens is that the woman doesn't want sex, but the guy feels entitled. That is the biggest problem as I see it.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If there is no evidence other than a claim that a rape took place, there shouldn't be a conviction. The whole reasonable doubt thing again.

 

[cobra_ky]

I agree, there are a lot of problems when women try to report rape. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to actually prove it was rape and not consensual sex. This is exacerbated when alcohol is involved. Like I've just said to someone else, when a sober guy takes advantage of a drunk girl, that's clearly wrong, but when both parties have been drinking things become a little less clear. I think one of the main problems is that, because the woman chose to get drunk, her actions are still her responsibility. It's here that I think the major problem kicks in; if a woman goes back to a guy's place after a night out, he will be expecting sex, whereas she might change her mind. In this scenario, I fear that most guys, especially if they've been drinking, don't really want to miss out on some tasty wildebeest meat, so will pressure the girl into sex.

And that, I think, is where the change really needs to happen. It needs to be made clear that people can change their minds about sex, whereas guys in these situations I think tend to feel entitled because the girl has come back to their place. Of course, the whole sex=hunting thing is also a problem, but I fear that that tends to be the nature of things when people are in bars/clubs and looking for a one-night stand.

I also think you raise a good point about the advice. It does seem that it's only advice until something actually happens, and then it becomes a list of reasons why the woman could have avoided being eaten by a lion (wait, what?). And I completely agree that that's not right. It shouldn't become 'well, here's what you did wrong, what did you expect would happen?' It should be 'that's terrible, let's go and get this terrible man.' I think that the main problem here is the police attitude to rape, because it really doesn't seem that rape is taken anywhere near as seriously as it should be.

There's a distinction to be drawn here between rape as a criminal offense and as a moral/cultural issue. If you wake up next to someone you'd never dream of sleeping with sober, well, that's going to be traumatic, whether s/he knew s/he was raping you or not. If you were both drunk and neither of you can clearly remember what happened that night, then yeah, under those circumstances it's difficult to prove rape in a court of law. That doesn't mean that what happened wasn't rape, it just means it's impossible to punish the rapist fairly. Fighting rape means fighting those "gray areas", too, and that's why law enforcement is only part of the issue.

That's also why it's important to address the underlying cultural problems, which i think you've done a good job of identifying here. Men feeling that they're entitled to sex, that plying women with alcohol is an acceptable means of attaining consent, are both attitudes contributing to the prevalence of rape in society. We need to recognize that consent is always revokable, and we need to start thinking about drunk sex the same way we think about drunk driving; a dangerous act that you should prevent if you can help it.

 

[cobra_ky]

Do I need to remind you that is not a trial, but a witch hunt? Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Considering this is on the internet, I can say this isn't the middle ages. A trial is a trial, not some carnival of humiliation. Even then, there is some statistics that rape accusations are being abused in an attempt to ruin a person's reputation. No one bothers to step back and use their brain, and jump the gun regardless of the harm it causes. Even juries are faulty, driven by mere emotion rather than the evidence at hand.

Even now emotional fervor strips rights, destroys lives, and causes paranoia.

My fault for not elaborating, I meant for that kind of treatment after their guilt is established. I probably should have left out the use of the word 'Trial', used 'convict' instead.

As far as the false accusations, that is a crime, isn't it? If its not, it should be.

I'm by no means a legal expert, sorry if I gave the impression that I thought I was.

Its not a crime. If your accused of rape, you are basically blacklisted. You cant wipe that off, and you cannot jail someone. You get a small amount of cash (if you take the person to court over defamation of character), but that wont get you work or anything. It basically means your life is over, and the person who ruined your life gets nothing but a slap on the wrist. This is why emotion is so dangerous, people jump the gun without using reason and logic. Even a conviction does not mean he may have actually done it as juries are prone to go by emotion than by healthy skepticism and evidence.

Hell, American courts resemble the courts of the Salem witch trials than anything else. The juries just makes things worse. Its a literal cluster fuck of pure emotional fervor.

Filing a false police report is crime in just about every legal system i know of. There are no reliable statistics that i know of indicating that false reports of rape are any more common than those for other crimes. There are statistics suggesting that rapes are significantly underreported, however.

That's not to say i think that the accused in any trial should be publicly shamed, you've certainly got a point there. But i think you're overstating the problem just a bit. I can think of a couple accused rapists who are still making millions of dollars a year in pro sports.

 

[Evil Earlgrey]

Once more: A black and white debate for a grey topic..

Women definately have the better spot to be in at the moment in western culture. But that doesn't make them Overlords. Nor will men be ever in such a position. If you spend some time thinking about it, you will realize that men are fucked without women and vice versa. As we only function in unison, there really is no one vs. the other debate. The really interesting question is how we can best live together and use each others strengths to help the group.
But then again.. it's silly to expect the average joe to think beyond fear, consumption and lazyness.

 

[b3nn3tt]

There's a distinction to be drawn here between rape as a criminal offense and as a moral/cultural issue. If you wake up next to someone you'd never dream of sleeping with sober, well, that's going to be traumatic, whether s/he knew s/he was raping you or not. If you were both drunk and neither of you can clearly remember what happened that night, then yeah, under those circumstances it's difficult to prove rape in a court of law. That doesn't mean that what happened wasn't rape, it just means it's impossible to punish the rapist fairly. Fighting rape means fighting those "gray areas", too, and that's why law enforcement is only part of the issue.

That's also why it's important to address the underlying cultural problems, which i think you've done a good job of identifying here. Men feeling that they're entitled to sex, that plying women with alcohol is an acceptable means of attaining consent, are both attitudes contributing to the prevalence of rape in society. We need to recognize that consent is always revokable, and we need to start thinking about drunk sex the same way we think about drunk driving; a dangerous act that you should prevent if you can help it.

A slight aside, but in the first paragraph who are you referring to as the rapist? Because I would say that if neither can remember, and if neither would have had sex with the other sober then it would either not be rape, or both parties would be rapists.

The thing is, in these scenarios it's pretty much impossible to prove rape, as all the guy has to do is claim that the sex was consensual and the woman now regrets it. And it's one of those things, similar to the women screaming at men for opening doors for them, that may have happened in a handful of cases but has become legend and is now assumed to be commonplace. And that, unfortunately, makes it very difficult for women to report rape and see something happen to the guy as a result.

 

[Caverat]

There's a distinction to be drawn here between rape as a criminal offense and as a moral/cultural issue. If you wake up next to someone you'd never dream of sleeping with sober, well, that's going to be traumatic, whether s/he knew s/he was raping you or not. If you were both drunk and neither of you can clearly remember what happened that night, then yeah, under those circumstances it's difficult to prove rape in a court of law. That doesn't mean that what happened wasn't rape, it just means it's impossible to punish the rapist fairly. Fighting rape means fighting those "gray areas", too, and that's why law enforcement is only part of the issue.

That's also why it's important to address the underlying cultural problems, which i think you've done a good job of identifying here. Men feeling that they're entitled to sex, that plying women with alcohol is an acceptable means of attaining consent, are both attitudes contributing to the prevalence of rape in society. We need to recognize that consent is always revokable, and we need to start thinking about drunk sex the same way we think about drunk driving; a dangerous act that you should prevent if you can help it.

I agree with the comparison to drunk driving, and that consent is revocable, but, calling it rape because someone agreed to something they wouldn't have while sober is a bit extreme. If someone is conscious during the act, and consenting while it is ongoing, it is not rape. So, while consent is revocable, it isn't in hindsight after the fact when one participated willingly during the act.

Remember I said conscious. As long as both parties are conscious and consenting, consent exists. Feeling shame, or disgust, the next morning does not another's criminal offense make. Doing something while drunk that you'd otherwise consider stupid doesn't mean it's someone else's fault, especially when they were probably just as drunk. The drunk driving is a really good analogy, if a person driving while drunk has an accident, they are responsible for their impaired decision, even if they drive safe while sober.

Again, talking about conscious and consenting individuals in the moment. Not talking about people who've been slipped roofies, or otherwise passed out.

 

[b3nn3tt]

In terms of being brutalised, more men are the victims of domestic abuse than women. And in the majority of cases where men are the aggressor, the violence is actually reciprocal, so both partners are being abused there.

You got a source for that?

Several. But credit where it's due, as I wasn't actually the one that found these. Enjoy reading:

Here is a study from Harvard saying exactly the opposite.
http://www.patientedu.org/aspx/HealthELibrary/HealthETopic.aspx?cid=M0907d
and here is a press release with pie charts
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/content/42/15/31.2.full
Here is a list of a few hundred studies breaking down the numbers, you can look up individual ones if you like, but the researchers broke it down and said that almost all studies showed women were at least as aggressive if not more so.
http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
and here is a different study finding women more often the aggressors
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/reprint/97/5/941

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If women were the wonderful, delectable angels that we sometimes think they are - why would they flock in droves to watch Twilight?

You seem like you have bit of a chip on your shoulder there... Break up or something?

Nah, I'm just a plain misanthropist when it comes to badly written Mormon Vampire Abstinence Porn.