Iron Mal said:
While that is true the male side of rape does tend to also some from the problem that it can sometimes be hard for some men to even realise if what happened to them was rape or 'getting lucky'.
Take the following proverbial situation, John and Jane are both at a party when they both get absolutely and hopelessly drunk, both are taken into a different room/out back/into someone's van (feel free to get creative with the details here) and are taken advantage of sexually by a complete stranger without protection.
The next morning both wake up, Jane would quite likely come to the realisation that she was raped while John would either be happy or confused (in any case, the thought of 'I was raped' isn't likely to enter his head).
Getting people to report to the police when they're the victim of a crime is hard when there is a sense of shame attached to it but still possible (they may eventually feel more comfortable seeking help or they may have a friend or family member who is willing to speak in their place etc.) but getting someone to report a crime they don't even think happened is next to impossible.
the question here is, if john was happy about it, was he actually raped?
Consent is a tricky subject. I take back the point i was making in my debate with Caverat earlier, because i was thinking about alcohol solely in terms of clouding judgement. Actually it removes inhibitions, and in many cases people actually WANT to have those inhibitions removed, (though sometimes they may not even realize it until they're already gone.)
now if men were better informed about the nature of consent, i think you're right, more rapes would be reported by them. but i also think that if you made this a consensual situation, allowing people to agree to it beforehand, more men would be willing to entertain the scenario than women would. this would be true for a number of cultural reasons, the most basic being that sex tends to be riskier for women than it is for men. and that's why i have my doubts that men are raped in equal proportion to women, because i think men are generally more willing to consent.
Iron Mal said:
i have the exact same problem with them. Yet i still don't see why you brought them up in this topic, since they have very little to do with the position men currently find themselves in.
To be fair maybe this is my own knee-jerk reaction coming through but when the subject of the article was 'Are men finished?' it did remind me of some of the arguements I have seen and been involved in that have involved the people you ad I both detest (along with the fact that most of the 'statistics' seemed to be based more on stereotypes and double standards than any actual research).
yes, the title did leave me with the impression that this thread was more antagonistic than was intended.
Iron Mal said:
I think they're the ones people pay the most attention to because they're extreme and controversial. And i wonder how long i have to go on disavowing them before people get over their knee-jerk reaction.
This is similar to why most environmentalist announcements tend to always be proclaiming how we're all in grave danger and unless we do something
now then we are
dooming the planet and our children and our children's children to a fate worse than death as they slowly suffocate under the manifested pollution born from our laziness and greed.
It shouldn't be any suprise that most of the attention and interest in a particular subject is always going to be directed towards the most sensationalised and dramatic claims because, frankly, we naturally have more immediate interest in stuff that sounds the most pressing and important (it's why you're more likely to pay attention to the knife wielding maniac who's screaming at you about how you must all bow before the mushroom god than the old couple who are quietly bickering amongst themselves about who will get the last rolo).
You'll probably find yourself having to disavow any connection to them until either they disappear or yourself and others who still actually engage in something besides misandry find a different title to identify yourself under (trying to 'reclaim' words hasn't exactly worked well in the past, if you need an example then just look at what happened when minorities tried to take back the 'N word').
It's a no-win situation. Be calm and reasonable and be ignored, or be loud and boisterous and be accused of overreacting. Alas.
As for reclaiming words, i'd say queers have been largely successful in doing that. And i don't think feminism even needs to be "reclaimed", because i don't think misandrists ever really claimed it in the first place.
Iron Mal said:
What we need is a cleaning of the slate to make everyone equal, not to give boosts and benefits to those who've had it hard in the past.
i disagree on this point. Boosts and benefits are fine as long as they don't unjustly impact others. Affirmative action works fine when it gets qualified minorities into jobs they deserve; it be comes problematic when it starts pushing out more qualified members of the majority.
Iron Mal said:
That's why i don't buy the "men are inconsequential" thesis. I agree that two-parent homes tend to be more stable than single-parent households, although i don't think the genders of the parents are particularly important.
You're right that social change, at least in this regard,hasn't been healthy, and that's why the work of feminism (and black social activists) isn't done yet. Not being dependent on a spouse means you can't depend on them to financially support you, either.
While I agree that there is always more to be done I would have to argue that things are genuinely better now than at any point in the history of our society (while there are still a few standing issues things tend to be, for the most part, fairly equal overall), as a result it isn't too hard to see why there are probably a lot of people who are unsympathetic and have something of an 'oh for fuck sake' kind of reaction to topics of gender issues (not to mention that it sometimes seems a bit silly when, as for reasons previously explained, the 'loudest' members of the feminist movement seem to be 50 years too late to the discussion and aren't dealing with problems like open discrimination or second-class citizen status anymore).
Things are better now than they've ever been. But they're still not perfect, and i doubt they ever will be. Feminists overreact a lot, sure, but that doesn't mean they should be disregarded entirely.
Iron Mal said:
As for the notion that 'you shouldn't be dependant on your spouse to support you', most people depend on their spouses for the same reason some of us move into appartments with friends, it's economically and practically easier to divide the various tasks and costs associated with having a home of your own between two people ('more hands make light work'), granted, in some cases there are families where the Dad goes out to work and the Mum stays home to do dishes and raise the kids but I think you'll in most cases these tend to either be out of choice (some women actually prefer the notion of being a housewife just as some men elect to be househusbands).
I would agree with this 'I don't need anyone to support me' mentality if the circumstances upon which people found themselves depending on others were always the role of patriarchy and gender roles but in modern times with the freedom of choice and oppertunity granted to all it could be argued that situations like that are more often the result of economic necessity and personal preference rather than 'because a woman's place is in the kitchen'.
If you freely
choose to stay at home with the kids or go out and work, then you're not being dependent. You've agreed to share responsibilities in way that suits your capabilities and preferences. When you're
forced to do these things out of necessity, then you're dependent. Economic necessity is a force, too, though one that affects men and women more or less equally.
Gonna cut it off here, i'm running late and i think i've already addressed most of the rest of your points here. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
