Are modern video games easier or simply designed better?

Recommended Videos

Vendor-Lazarus

Censored by Mods. PM for Taboos
Mar 1, 2009
1,201
0
0
dscross said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
There are more things I despise in current games than I did for yesterdays.
Are you thinking of some specific games when you say that or most modern games?
I'm going to come straight out from the beginning and confess to not having played all that many modern titles.
I have watched and read a lot about them though, at least the most popular ones.

Taking off from there, it seems that most of the modern games each have at least one or more deal-breakers in it for me.
Most have to do with console ports or related things (I'm gaming on a PC) but some are inherent to PC's as well.
Everything that takes away control from players is a no go for me for a start.
 

dscross

Elite Member
Legacy
May 14, 2013
1,298
37
53
Country
United Kingdom
Vendor-Lazarus said:
dscross said:
Vendor-Lazarus said:
There are more things I despise in current games than I did for yesterdays.
Are you thinking of some specific games when you say that or most modern games?
I'm going to come straight out from the beginning and confess to not having played all that many modern titles.
I have watched and read a lot about them though, at least the most popular ones.

Taking off from there, it seems that most of the modern games each have at least one or more deal-breakers in it for me.
Most have to do with console ports or related things (I'm gaming on a PC) but some are inherent to PC's as well.
Everything that takes away control from players is a no go for me for a start.
It's not true of all games though. There are SOME genuinely challenging modern games. I'd put games made in a brand new style like Dark Souls in that category, though they are few and far between and, also, if you don't like that style of game it limits you.

I do find some of the changes in the past 15-20 years frustrating, in a way. Both the need for things like checkpoints in modern games and all the endless shooting (because of popular demand I guess?) have eroded some of my favourite franchises. Some games just flat out bore me. Resident Evil completely changed from the style I loved, for example, into more boring cliche shooter action. I was surprised they took it back a notch with 7 actually, which pleasantly surprised me, though it will never be the same as the original gameplay to me. It's exactly the same as what has happened to the film industry - too many action sequences, not enough substance.

Saying that the PS4 seems to be catering for old gamers at the moment. my games include, Grim Fandango, Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Wonderboy The Dragon's trap, REmake, Resident Evil 0, Rez - all Remastered (as well as the PS2 version of Code Veronica and Fahrenheit).

Then there's all the new takes on old franchises - I have Mortal Komat XL, Resident Evil 7, FF15 and Sonic Mania.

Many other newer games I own are all made in the old style - Freedom Planet (which basically plays like old school Sonic), Shovel Knight (basically an old school platformer), Shantae series (an old school metroidvania). That's not even counting the old remade PS3 games that are great for old gamers and the upcoming ones - OR the many indie games made old school platformer style.

So I mean, there's a lot of great content for people like us - it's just they also churn out a lot of easy, modern, generic shit as well.
 

dscross

Elite Member
Legacy
May 14, 2013
1,298
37
53
Country
United Kingdom
balladbird said:
game design philosophy has changed from the 8-16 bit era. As was mentioned above, the difficulty curve of oldschool games was to try to milk more quarters from the pockets of the player, and when they were ported over, it was kept that way because the intense difficulty would increase the time it would take for a player to complete the game, since the limitations of their technology meant the games couldn't be particularly long.


As time progressed, there was no profit in difficulty, and developers could find different ways to engage their playerbases. Games became less punishing and more about formula and gameplay diversity.

funny enough, with the advent of F2P game development philosophy, we're gradually starting to see a return to oldschool arcade game design tactics, because microtransactions have become the "quarters" for the developers to milk from their playerbase once more.
I've noticed a resurgence in some old school games generally. Not sure if it's designed for the nostalgic gamer though or whether there is a market for it among the younger generation. Surely children these days don't want their hand held through everything? I can see kids being wowed by some of the newer takes on old games. I've named a few in the above post. If I discovered some of those now, I'd be mega happy.

I suppose things like Lucasarts games wouldn't be that challenging these days though because I bet most kids wouldn't bother staying stuck on puzzles if they couldn't work it out - they'd just look up the puzzle answers online. Cheaters! ;)
 

Darth Rosenberg

New member
Oct 25, 2011
1,288
0
0
Isn't it a bit of a misleading or just plain redundant question (no offence intended personally - it's a well written opening post)?

Because what kind of games are you/we really discussing? Given the ever increasing variety of experiences that makes up the medium, surely games have become easier, harder, better, and worse all depending on a vast set of variables - which are unavoidably subjective as well as historic (in both cases that's massively shaped by what how old someone is, and when their formative gaming experiences were).

So speaking entirely subjectively I'd say the medium's never been in as healthy a position before, and that the diversity of experience means things are easier and harder depending on preference. To go into detail about design we need to specify genres or even franchises. TES, for example, is generally seen to have gotten easier - but to even the hardcore Morrowind's systems and mechanics are surely archaic, and so there is good and bad about both ends of the spectrum. An IP has evolved [into the mainstream], and it's simple preference as to whether that's positive or negative, harder or easier, superior or inferior 'design'.

I tend to greatly value and admire games where challenge is essentially a matter of player preference, and I'm not referring to diff settings. I go into DS[1] below, but Elite Dangerous is another good contemporary example; the complexity of its build system (i.e. outfitting a ship to perform specific roles, or fulfill multi-role duties, much like DS's character builds) gives players the option to tailor the experience they want. The game can be a relaxing [space] walk in the [space] park requiring the bare minimum of knowledge of builds, or it can be a ferociously competitive, min-max OCD nightmare entailing lots of visits to the Engineers (who customise your ship modules/weapons, but do so via a lot of RNG)...

They're quite rare, but games that can adapt to a player's preferences are an ideal, in a way, at least to me. And I feel games these days are more capable of supporting that kind of adaptive, malleable experience. Game design has certainly become more nuanced and diverse over the decades, which benefits far more people than it used to.

Saelune said:
And quest arrows...something else Pokemon has fallen victim to, but more notably The Elder Scrolls.

Morrowind you get no quest arrows, and have to actually know what you're doing and even if you're on a quest. But Oblivion most of it you can do without much though, and Skyrim even more so.
Heh, I assume the archives have been lost long ago, but when Oblivion came out I ranted on a TES forum against quest arrows/arrows-of-idiocy/the green-arrow-of-doom page after page, thread after thread, probably year after year. I was declared a Morrowhiner (fast travel in Oblivion was another major sin).

I adored how Morrowind did things, and to rebuke someone else's mention of the sometimes poor quality of the directions? Good, I liked that - it made it feel more real, and its denizens just as irritatingly vague or just plain wrong as people really can be. I concede it's arguably poor game design... but fuck it, I loved it, and I'd take some esoteric directions on a page over the patronising, thoughtless idiocy of waypoints and map markers any day.

Coupled with a glorious lack of fast travel (but plenty of options for travel points), and Vvardenfell remains one of the best open-world experiences I've ever had, with a sense of cohesion that nothing else has quite matched, because you came to know its contours and landmarks by necessity. What some saw - or see - as 'challenging', I simply embraced as immersive and engaging. The lack of cheat-oh-arrows also enriched role-play no end (e.g. a search for Mehrunes' Razor became a week long hunt which became a pivot point for my character's arc. simply running to a stupid icon on a map requires no thought or intelligence or effort, on either the devs part of the player).

Dark Souls 1 and Bloodborne do a good job of being hard for the right reasons. They arent actually as hard as people say because your death isnt the end. Even more so in Bloodborne where you dont hollow, but because of that being easier, it lets the enemies be harder and the game fun for it.
DS1 certainly could be challenging - and very occasionally it arguably wasn't fair - but part of its genius was, as you allude to, making death a part of the actual game loop itself; death was a setback, an opportunity to learn (if you were paying attention), but once you leveled up in plain ol' gameplaying terms (e.g. knowing how to avoid threats instead of having to fight them all, which often involved knowledge of shortcuts) the challenge was usually more about whether you could get back to those tens of thousands of souls at your bloodstain.

So the 'difficulty' - and the respective punishment - often shifted depending how many souls you had on you, what you were planning to do with them, and so on. Scouting with barely any souls was always an option, which greatly reduced any punishment. The player was actively engaged in just how hard that game was (spellslinging ostensibly being easy mode), along with the punishment.
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
3,056
0
0
Seth Carter said:
I actually had the experience of playing Morrowind after Oblivion, despite having gotten Morrowind around its release, it was a horrible mess performance wise on my PC at the time (the fun period of PC gaming where it was basically a roulette game whether a graphics card would actually support whatever random 3d game at all).

While quest markers literally pointing to scene details and stuff is a bit overmuch, I wouldn't say Morrowind had a positive benefit from lack of them. It's maybe unfair to judge it for a lack of visual distinction, but even the directions they give are near meaningless half the time when everything looks the same and unique landmarks are few and spread thin. Interiors being even worse as they're just endless repeating identical hallways.

I never got the impression of an added layer of challenge or immersion, just padding busywork laboriously checking dozens of identical looking doorways til I found the one with the correct name on it. While we've made some technological strides in details and the amount of unique assets that can be used, I doubt any massive open world would able to be distinct enough to properly utilize a directional system.
Never mind the fact that everything looks the same and landmarks are few and far between in Morrowind. You can't even see the bloody landmarks, because the game's draw distance is absolutely dreadful. It's perhaps the clearest of example of poor visuals actively harming the gameplay experience I can think of. I've tried starting Morrowind twice, and both times I've quit within the first 2 hours. The appeal of "pick a direction and find your adventure" rather fails to materialize when at any given time, during any kind of weather, at any time of day, you can see maybe 50 meters in front of you. It's less like seeking adventure on a mountain you see in the distance, and more like stumbling randomly through a mist.
 

dscross

Elite Member
Legacy
May 14, 2013
1,298
37
53
Country
United Kingdom
Darth Rosenberg said:
Isn't it a bit of a misleading or just plain redundant question (no offence intended personally - it's a well written opening post)?
Only so far in that anything in the zeitgeist is worth discussing. I qualified it at the beginning saying that I thought there was a general consensus that games were easier. There is agreement and disagreement on both sides, therefore, it's very worthy of discussion.

Because what kind of games are you/we really discussing? Given the ever increasing variety of experiences that makes up the medium, surely games have become easier, harder, better, and worse all depending on a vast set of variables - which are unavoidably subjective as well as historic (in both cases that's massively shaped by what how old someone is, and when their formative gaming experiences were).
I did say at the end that it could be that variety is the answer. It just means that you fall into this camp in the argument. I was talking about general trends in gaming. There's variety in everything. There is no black and white in anything. There were easy games back in the day. There are hard games now. But what was the general trend back then and now. That is the question we are asking. We may as well not ask any broad questions about anything if we are going put everything down as 'unavoidably subjective and historic'. That's true of most things except human constructs like maths. [/quote]

So speaking entirely subjectively I'd say the medium's never been in as healthy a position before, and that the diversity of experience means things are easier and harder depending on preference. To go into detail about design we need to specify genres or even franchises. TES, for example, is generally seen to have gotten easier - but to even the hardcore Morrowind's systems and mechanics are surely archaic, and so there is good and bad about both ends of the spectrum. An IP has evolved [into the mainstream], and it's simple preference as to whether that's positive or negative, harder or easier, superior or inferior 'design'.
My point was not to bring into question the health of the industry. It's not a point I made. They are catering for the market, and the games industry sells more for that. There are certainly games made in the old style - in fact many of my games collection in the style of old games - because, for example, I hate FFS - but it's certainly not the mainstream way of making them anymore.

I tend to greatly value and admire games where challenge is essentially a matter of player preference, and I'm not referring to diff settings. I go into DS[1] below, but Elite Dangerous is another good contemporary example; the complexity of its build system (i.e. outfitting a ship to perform specific roles, or fulfill multi-role duties, much like DS's character builds) gives players the option to tailor the experience they want. The game can be a relaxing [space] walk in the [space] park requiring the bare minimum of knowledge of builds, or it can be a ferociously competitive, min-max OCD nightmare entailing lots of visits to the Engineers (who customise your ship modules/weapons, but do so via a lot of RNG)...
I think you take a game's 'normal mode' as the difficulty it is supposed to be played and compare it to against other normal modes or games that don't give you a choice. That will give you the difficulty level of the game set as it's meant to be played. objectively speaking, if you can find me any modern games as difficult as those old NES classics, for example. I'd be surprised. They were HAAARD. Im not saying the change of design philosophy is a problem, or where I sit on the argument. In fact that was the whole point of this thread - to discuss it. I'm just pointing out that it is an argument worth having, because it's interesting.
 

dscross

Elite Member
Legacy
May 14, 2013
1,298
37
53
Country
United Kingdom
Darth Rosenberg said:
Isn't it a bit of a misleading or just plain redundant question (no offence intended personally - it's a well written opening post)?
Only in so far that anything in the zeitgeist is worth discussing. I qualified it at the beginning saying that I thought there was a general consensus that games were easier. There is agreement and disagreement on both sides, therefore, it's very worthy of discussion.

Because what kind of games are you/we really discussing? Given the ever increasing variety of experiences that makes up the medium, surely games have become easier, harder, better, and worse all depending on a vast set of variables - which are unavoidably subjective as well as historic (in both cases that's massively shaped by what how old someone is, and when their formative gaming experiences were).
I did say at the end that it could be that variety is the answer. It just means that you fall into this camp in the argument. I was talking about general trends in gaming. There's variety in everything. There is no black and white in anything. There were some easy games back in the day. There are some hard games now. But what was the general trend back then and now. That is the question we are asking. We may as well not ask any broad questions about anything if we are going put everything down as 'unavoidably subjective and historic'. That's true of most things except human constructs like maths.

So speaking entirely subjectively I'd say the medium's never been in as healthy a position before, and that the diversity of experience means things are easier and harder depending on preference. To go into detail about design we need to specify genres or even franchises. TES, for example, is generally seen to have gotten easier - but to even the hardcore Morrowind's systems and mechanics are surely archaic, and so there is good and bad about both ends of the spectrum. An IP has evolved [into the mainstream], and it's simple preference as to whether that's positive or negative, harder or easier, superior or inferior 'design'.
My point was not to bring into question the health of the industry. It's not a point I made. They are catering for the market, and the games industry sells more for that. There are certainly games made in the old style - in fact many of my games collection in the style of old games - because, for example, I hate FFS - but it's certainly not the mainstream way of making them anymore.

I tend to greatly value and admire games where challenge is essentially a matter of player preference, and I'm not referring to diff settings. I go into DS[1] below, but Elite Dangerous is another good contemporary example; the complexity of its build system (i.e. outfitting a ship to perform specific roles, or fulfill multi-role duties, much like DS's character builds) gives players the option to tailor the experience they want. The game can be a relaxing [space] walk in the [space] park requiring the bare minimum of knowledge of builds, or it can be a ferociously competitive, min-max OCD nightmare entailing lots of visits to the Engineers (who customise your ship modules/weapons, but do so via a lot of RNG)...
I think you take a game's 'normal mode' as the difficulty it is supposed to be played and compare it to against other normal modes or games that don't give you a choice. That will give you the difficulty level of the game set as it's meant to be played. objectively speaking, if you can find me any modern games as difficult as those old NES classics, for example, I'd be surprised. They were HAAARD. Im not saying the change of design philosophy is a problem, or where I sit on the argument. In fact that was the whole point of this thread - to discuss it. I'm just pointing out that it is an argument worth having, because it's interesting.
 

Darth Rosenberg

New member
Oct 25, 2011
1,288
0
0
dscross said:
Only in so far that anything in the zeitgeist is worth discussing. I qualified it at the beginning saying that I thought there was a general consensus that games were easier. There is agreement and disagreement on both sides, therefore, it's very worthy of discussion.
Eh, it's potentially interesting to some, though the conclusion most would draw would ultimately depend on simple preferences/game tastes, thus making any answer fairly meaningless - expression of biased preference isn't a commentary on anything.

I did say at the end that it could be that variety is the answer. It just means that you fall into this camp in the argument.
Is stating that the industry is now more diverse than it ever was (ergo sometimes easier and sometimes harder) a 'camp'? There's the scope of PC gaming, the more populist consoles, whatever Nintendo are doing, VR, more successful explorations of AR, mobile gaming, and so on.

You could say that games are 'easier' simply because there are more of them, and it is now a much more populist, mass market medium. But if a gamer doesn't engage with any of that, well, then it's just academic... and the medium is as hard as they choose to make it due to the sheer variety on show.

I'd say core gamers are those most likely to complain about games getting easier. But isn't it really about them not being the only people being catered to, where once they largely were? There has been a cultural/demographic shift, and some are resentful of that.

My point was not to bring into question the health of the industry. It's not a point I made.
No, it was one I brought up in relation to things being harder, easier, worse and better thanks to more diversity. It's a boringly indistinct answer, but that's usually the case...

They are catering for the market, and the games industry sells more for that. There are certainly games made in the old style - in fact many of my games collection in the style of old games - because, for example, I hate FFS - but it's certainly not the mainstream way of making them anymore.
What's the old style for you?

I think you take a game's 'normal mode' as the difficulty it is supposed to be played and compare it to against other normal modes or games that don't give you a choice. That will give you the difficulty level of the game set as it's meant to be played.
Eh, I'm not sure that's ever been very relevant. If we're talking about consensus, then I'd say consensus also has it that the default diff is usually the casual, entry level experience - and more experienced gamers, particularly in a given genre, always view the one up from default as the baseline.

Heroic was always considered the true 'intended' experience by Halo fans, and Legendary was something many aimed for as well.


Objectively speaking, if you can find me any modern games as difficult as those old NES classics, for example, I'd be surprised. They were HAAARD. Im not saying the change of design philosophy is a problem, or where I sit on the argument.
What does difficulty matter anyway? Do you judge games only on their challenge?

The level of technology defines what can be made, and in terms of expressive art I'd say the medium's been severely hamstrung for most of its lifespan. So, very simplistically speaking, if games of old (I've personally no interest in anything before the latter phases of the 360 era) were more defined by challenge and skill level, then to me the broad shift in design ethos is a wholly positive one; digital toys maturing into an expressive medium (as well as an even broader mass market form of entertainment).

Apropos technology; PvP these days is arguably where most of the high skill level play is found, so in that sense a persistent challenge has simply been channeled into certain environments.