kurokotetsu said:
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As far as what can be done with mental programming, there are entertainers who do hypnosis shows that can do a lot of what your claiming is impossible to begin with (I've seen it). When it comes to deprogramming, that is a little more than just hypnosis, and your typical shrink isn't in a position to attempt to do it, nor would they generally talk about things like that as shrinks have trouble freaking people out to begin with. Boot Camp which you mention does involve some psychological elements, to break people down and then rebuild them as something better, but that's not full on deprogramming, which for the most part is pretty much illegal. The only time you officially see deprogramming being used is to say overcome the brainwashing certain people conditioned into cults and the like have undergone, which is not all that common (Hollywood aside). That said yes, someone with enough of a background in psychology, the time, and the opportunity, can pretty much change everything about you, and there really isn't much that can be done about it.
Then why it isn't done? Why are there still prisoners, psychopaths, sociopaths, war prisoners that refuse to talk and all those other people that aren't "deprogrammed"? Why has the military and correctional systems in such a problem to crack those people open, seeing a lot of them are held indefinitely and they have access to people with "enough of a background in psychology" and plenty of opportunities. Why is that "deprogramming" limited to cult members? Are the methods too extreme (even when there are other evidences of torture to Guantanamo Bay prisoners) to be done and breaking the amendment of cruel and unusual punishment? Why do they seem to have little success with that? Why can't they make them allies? Why can't they be reprogrammed to upstanding citizens? Why such a useful skill seems to be used so little? If it where that possible, that infallible, then it should be a discussion about making a standard practice to hypnotize, to program or deprogram people that are considered extremely dangerous. A la Clockwork Orange one could say, at least for individuals with psychosis that make them a threat to everyone and other mental disorders which may end up with several deaths which, according to you can be changed. Shouldn't there be a discussion about that, since psychology is so powerful and can be done to anyone?
We apparently aren't going to agree though, and just keep talking circles around each other, so there is little point in continueing. The bottom line is you are saying you don't believe in psychology, by denying one of the central foundations it all springs from. You are entitled to that opinion (and any opinion for that matter). I on the other hand do agree with it based on my own education and things I've seen. The central point here is that Dusty wasn't being unfair or unrealistic when you omit the bad attempt to blindly project specifics. Dusty also has very little to prove, vet, or provide citations or whatever for (nor do I) because we're again, talking common knowledge stuff here, the very foundation of an entire branch of medical science that has been around and put to use for so long that it's become pretty much indisputable, and really as time goes on, psychology is just going to find new and better ways to manipulate people and show how predictable we are. The usual reason why people deny psychology is because of some innate belief in the unique and mystical nature of humanity and the individual, call it the soul. The argument being that the existence of that special trait invalidates any effort to predict, categorize, or control human behavior and sense of self, despite all evidence and demonstration to the contrary. I on the other hand personally believe in the existence of a soul (being a Christian, albeit not a deeply spiritual one) and the validity of psychology, but that gets into an entirely different discussion which would turn philosophical and go well beyond the context of this discussion which was simply me explaining, and defending, someone else's point which I believe you were dismissing unfairly.
Euclidean geometry went undisputed for almost two thousand years, well above what psychology has been around in its current form. It was common knowledge to anyone that went to college, it had been even cited in antiquity as the defining piece of knowledge you had to have (Plato's Academy is reputed to have had the inscription "Let no one ignorant of geometry enter) and was used as the most stable piece of knowledge a human may have. The foundations of that were challenged, and proven not to be as steady as they were thought to be. Just because something is "common knowledge" is not undisputable nor shouldn't be sustained when asked to. That is just not very critical way of seeing stuff. I would say that challenging the foundations requires even more sustenance and can have a lovely debate. You don't seem to agree to that. Things can be proven beyond doubt. Too bad.
OT: Maybe this thread could be seen as proof that there isn't much overlap as you thought? half of the posts are about living in Ontario or discussing psychology, few people have come forth as BDSM or kinky and geeks. So maybe there aren't that much in a predominantly geek site that classify themselves as kinky? That could be pondered on.
It's one of those situations where I don't exactly have textbooks handy, and while I could find examples it would involve doing a lot more research than is practical for an internet debate. This is why I've referred you to read up on the fathers of psychology (Freud, Skinner, Rogers, and maybe Jung). Especially seeing as even if I *DID* start bringing up specific ways these things were proven, it wouldn't matter much unless you understand the subject enough to get all the ramifications.
As far as using Hypnosis and Deprogramming to condition criminals and such, it represents a moral issue in terms of making people into what you want them to be. Furthermore if you simply change someone, does that really punish them for their transactions? (which of course gets into the whole concept of crime an punishment which goes beyond this debate). It's not easy to do at the moment, taking a lot of time and effort, and not something that could be done on a massive scale. However if you read much sci-fi various authors have dealt with the moral and social ramifications that arise from doing exactly that, and as a result have sort of put the question out there. Things like "A Clockwork Orange" probably wind up on so many recommended/required reading lists due to touching on these kinds of subjects. While hardly an academic work, the movie "Demolition Man" featured a cryogenic prison where prisoners were re-conditioned while they were in a deep freeze, something which in part contributed to a utopian society that had become largely unable to defend itself (which was pushing it admittedly), and the plot also involved someone using the system for doing this to instead make an imprisoned criminal even worse before releasing them.... then of course you have issues about free will and the right of people to develop, and what would potentially be lost in curing all the problems if we say used technology to invariably turn everyone into a model citizen. After all, if your going to condition criminals, why not say condition everyone and turn them into model citizens much like vaccinations, when there is no crime everyone is happier, right?
That said there are those who have actually pushed for trying to do things exactly like you say.
As far as the Gorean subculture goes, my knowledge comes from dealing with people who have been involved in it, or claimed to be. For example, back when I was on the Palladiumbooks forum years ago there was a guy from DC who was into that and actually posted a couple of pics of his girlfriend/wife and the mark he gave her if I remember. I also had some conversations with "Rana Of Gor" who was involved in one of the east coast's bigger Gorean communes through something called LIC (Long Island connection) <I think I have the names right, it's been a long time and I wasn't exactly close to them>. One of the girls I hung out with in college had her ear notched by her boyfriend as a show of love/submission after she cheated on him, but the theater guild crowd was weird. I played Magic The Gathering with them in the cafeteria with some regularity (this was at Three Rivers Community College).
Perhaps most importantly however I'm a veteran of WOG (Warriors Of Gor) which years ago was a fairly big time, invitational GOR MUD. I got invited due to doing some kinky RP as a Forsaken (basically a weird combination of GM and IC ultra bad guy) on a Wheel Of Time MUD called "Moments In Tyme". I was assigned to play Graendal as she was the one who opened up (replacing the previous player in admin due to my RP ability). At any rate WOG had all the combat and stuff you'd expect from a MUD but also had an ERP community as it's foundation, and involved people who were absolutely obsessive/compulsive about GOR (for obvious reasons). I picked up a lot of stuff there, and I believe LIC was involved in the forums to help try and arrange people meeting up IRL, but the distances were too long and it pretty much didn't happen for anyone I know of, besides as you know from the RP scene what people are in RL is oftentimes a lot different from what they present as online, and face to face meetings can thus be awkward. I had of course read Gor a lot more recently (and brushed up on it constantly) not to mention having plenty of people who spelled out what was expected from various kinds of characters.
Now, one thing I will point out that was big on WOG is that when you play "Gorean" the thing to remember is your not Tarl, Jason, or Elizabeth. Those characters were from earth, and have a somewhat alien perspective to Gor, which comes through even when Tarl is acting as Bosk and goes through his irredeemable emo phase (doing things like abandoning Elizabeth as a slave). While in a position of authority most of the time, your largely dealing with nice guys by the standards of Gor even when they seem to be brutal. Your also generally dealing with slave merchants and trainers rather than the end consumers.
One key element of Gorean slavery (which of course can't come up in RL versions) is that properly training a slave involves in part a sort of bondage/seduction thing to get them to fall in love with/need their master. The final aspect of slave trading is to basically shatter them, because basically when the slave loves you, that's when you sell them to someone else. After all as a slave owning Gorean man, a slave girl is beneath you, or anyone else, and this reaffirms it. The slave trainers won't generally abuse or mark slaves physically, but that's because they want to sell them, the end consumers on the other hand are oftentime vicious pieces of work, and in many cases will ruin and go through slaves rapidly which ensures there is always a demand. Indeed one of the reasons why Goreans travel through space to capture earth women is not just because it's so wonderful to break their spirit, but because at the rate Gor depletes it's hot babes it literally needs a steady supply from elsewhere. See, in the course of the books, if your say reading about Tarl becoming Bosk, you'll get a better picture of the big time Gorean slaver from his companion Samos (I think that was his name) who was pure Gorean.
Slaves being so worthless and disposable is also why Tarl becomes so shattered when he's taken as a slave even if he's never fully broken. That's something the sense of honor he's indoctrinated with cannot stand. What's more even after rescueing Marlaneus of Ar later on (saving his life) he's pretty much scored by perhaps his greatest friend because of what happened to him. Marlaneus also supports, but officially disowns, his own daughter when she was captured, because she was no longer a free woman and could never be again and thus even his daughter isn't worth a remote amount of respect, despite him being obligated to support her.
Some of the later books deal with a guy called Jason Marshall who is pretty much taken as a man slave by women which goes further into those aspects of things. But also gets into the concept that even dominant women are looked down on, at least in secret, and are among the favorite of men to make fall and break, as nature demands (well by Gorean standards).
The point is I know enough, and have RPed it from a number of perspectives, to put it bluntly while nobody does it "ideally" IRL, the Gorean culture is basically misogynism practiced by sadistic sociopaths. IRL people just play the role of course, but in going with the trappings it can get pretty hardcore, depending on how far you want to take it, and a lot of it comes down to how masochistic the person on the receiving end actually is of course. Chances are if your just into more general Dominant/Submissive stuff your not going to identify specifically as Gorean, which tends to imply a certain level of hardcore commitment and going a bit further than most of those casually into the movement, but that's not a definite.
One thing I will point out about the Gor books is that they start out as more or less straightforward heroic fantasy with some erotic trappings. Later they turn more into bondage books with some sword and sorcery trappings. If you haven't gotten as far as "Bosk" yet, then your really kind of missing the meat and potatoes of the whole bondage thing since that is when it takes off, and Tarl stops being as... noble and humanitarian. Arguably this was done to him on purpose to hamper those attitudes, The Priest Kings (for whom he was an agent) actually arranged for him to be taken as a slaver (by the rince fielders I believe). His buddy Samos was another agent of The Priest Kings sort of sent to keep an eye on him and ensure things went according to plan as I remember. It should also be noted part of this is also that some of the guys who enslave Tarl were former slaves themselves, which is where you start seeing more details on what people throughout Gor actually do to slaves. This is also touched upon later when they briefly introduce the "Panther Women" who are female slaves who escaped and became Amazons and have a definite vengeance vibe due to their treatment (including raping dudes before killing them). Prior to the Bosk thing and relocation to Port Karr, your actually dealing mostly with Ar which is a world power and one of the more enlightened nations in Gor overall, but understand even Ar's relatively progressive king shows himself to be kind of a jerk and how far the cultural conditioning here goes.
When it comes to the ear notching and stuff I believe the first time it winds up being mentioned is in regards to a thief girl who winds up being enslaved and winds up being part of one of Bosk's expeditions (the story where he meets The Panther Women and rescues Marlaneus if I remember, but it's been a while). However later you run into slaves who have their ears notched into rags by masters who get off on doing that to them for even minor infractions. I believe when Tarl is first captured one of the guys that did it was an "exotic" intentionally bred to have large ears, and much later you find out that particular breed of exotic was created specifically for consumers who wanted to torture/notch the ears of their playthings (more ear, means more you can cut away over a period of time).
The point here is that while my memory isn't perfect, yeah... I kind of know what I'm talking about.
It's also how I know I can be a passable writer of certain kinds of erotica and erotic horror (purely amateur of course though and I haven't stayed in practice since ERP really hasn't been my thing for a long time, I went through a phase though).
