Are Racist and Sexist jokes ok if they are used purely in a joking manner?

[DEAD34345]

Yes, it's perfectly acceptable to make a joke about anything in my opinion, as long as it is completely in jest. However, if you make a joke around someone who does not know that it is completely in jest, then they will likely react very badly.

That's all very well to say. However, let's take an example. Rape and abuse jokes. I've heard so many of these, date rape jokes especially. To most people they're just jokes. To survivors of rape and abuse they're triggers for flashbacks, turmoil and upset. And the person telling it is trying to make a joke out of that, almost always from the persona of the perpetrator. It's a supremely unhappy combination, whether or not the survivor is aware that it's in jest.

That would be unfortunate. It doesn't change the fact that I think that the person who told the joke is well within their rights to do so. You can't predict how people are going to react to anything you say, someone could also have had a bad experience involving a tuba and an chimpanzee, but that doesn't meant that jokes about them shouldn't be made. Obviously, if you know someone will react badly to a joke about rape (or about anything for that matter) then it would be cruel to make the joke in front of them, but otherwise I'm still OK with it.

If someone can make others laugh with a joke about anything, including rape, then good for them as they have brought a little happiness into other's lives.

 

[DarksideFlame]

Some people just have problems with seeing that it's a joke and think that the person who said it actually supports those views that are in the joke.
I joke about sexism but I do not wish to actually offend someone and if someone suddenly is offended when I tell a joke to my friends then they just want attention and pretend to be special

 

[Icaruss]

As long as its funny and well meant.

 

[Tim Mazzola]

Honestly?

That's why when people tell me Duke Nukem Forever is a satire of sexism, I don't buy that. Nothing about how the game was marketted suggests that they are criticising the idea of sexism or using women as sex objects, and the character Duke himself never becomes someone we are expected to dislike or pity. It certainly isn't critizing Duke, if anything it's celebrating all the sexist imagery.
Especially with that whole 'Capture the babe' thing. The game that makes a woman into a human equivilant of the 'flag' in a CTF gametype. One who you have to clam down by slapping her on the arse.
If this was meant to represent some kind of deep and important criticism of sexism, I'm not seeing it. And if this is some sort of joke, I, and a lot of women's rights groups, are not laughing.

Duke Nukem is a satirical caricature of Rambo-esque testosterone-fueled action films. They are not "criticizing the idea of sexism" so much as they're blowing it out of proportion to laughably ridiculous levels, and the way it's marketed plays it straight because frankly the genre Duke Nukem is satirizing does this despite its inherent ridiculousness. The satire is not the elements of Duke Nukem that people find offensive. Rather, the elements of Duke Nukem that people find offensive are satirizing a genre. Is it tasteful? That's entirely subjective. I, for one, think it's clever and amusing. I don't really play Duke Nukem games, but they have a right to be made, and I appreciate the humor.

Not trying to turn this into a "Is Duke Nukem sexist?" thread, but I feel like a lot of people just aren't getting the joke with Duke.

Yeah, but the "Movie Movie" people (in other words, all of the Wayans brothers besides Damon and Keenan Ivory, the only 2 talented ones) do satire too; they just do it poorly. If you want to see satire of over-the-top adolescent-pandering violence and hypersexuality (in addition to a great many other things), done with wit and intellect, may I recommend No More Heroes. Instead of a hulking hypermasculine figure, the hero is (in addition to a badass killer) a nerd. Who doesn't get laid. And has transformer figurines all over his apartment.

Frankly, I a) never said I wanted to see anything, b) never mentioned satire of "over-the-top adolescent-pandering violence and hypersexuality". My entire post was basically trying to point out that that is NOT what Duke Nukem is. If Duke Nukem wasn't a hulking hypermasculine figure, he wouldn't be something that poked fun at Rambo and James Bond and other hypermasculine dudes like those guys. He's supposed to be a classic stupid action movie turned up to 10,000. I honestly don't see how your post responds to mine in any way. Just because the "Movie Movie" people do satire badly has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion about Duke Nukem and adds nothing to your point, so I'm just confused about where you were going with that.

I don't know. Honestly, like I said, I don't really like Duke Nukem that much. I just get annoyed that people don't get the joke of it at all and try and actually take it seriously or think it's what you said it was.

That's what's commonly referred to as a figure of speech, frankly. And it sounds like you don't want to see anything other than your own point of view. Um, yes, you did say that Duke was satire of over-the top adolescent-pandering violence. If you like, I can provide youtube clips of Rambo movies. Sorry, I also added hypersexuality, since that's what Duke is, according to its creators (both the original franchise and this new manufactured nostalgia game). I humbly submit that you are not as clever as you think you are. There's nothing Bond-esque about Duke Nukem - except of course that he is a sexist. The comparison to the Wayans films was more than apt - 3D realms and Gearbox are shitty satirists, just as are the Wayans. The only real difference is that Duke began simply as a work that pandered to try to overcompensate for its own glaring flaws and later on its fans and creators made the claim that it was satire, whereas the Wayans movies were always just shitty collections of mini-parodies with tons of pandering.

Oh yeah, I get the joke (bra). It's a 10-year-old's joke. Not very clever.

...and that's why I think you should check out No More Heroes...

It's not that I only want to see my own point of you, you just still seem to somehow completely misinterpret literally every word I say.

Also, I never claimed to be trying to be clever about this. I claimed to have common sense and plainly see that Duke Nukem isn't supposed to be played straight. I still have no idea why you're bringing up the Wayan's movies when it's like comparing apples and oranges. The Wayan's movies satire by making crappy, pointless references that you're supposed to laugh at because it's a reference. Duke deconstructs and makes fun of one specific character archetype. Every personal attack your making about me in your posts is applicable to yourself. You're clearly not paying attention to anything I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to be clever. I'd try to see the points you make if they were actually relevant. I'm actually trying to form a coherent explanation and you're just rambling about off-topic.

I still have never stated that Duke was satire of over-the top adolescent-pandering violence. I state again, my whole point is that THAT IS COMPLETELY AND 100% WRONG and couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, that IS what Rambo is, but Duke isn't satirizing what Rambo is, it's satirizing Rambo and it's ilk itself. I hate to use the same example but I just can't really think of anything else. Like I said, I don't really like these games or watch a lot of action movies, so I'm probably not the best guy to try and explain this to people, but like I said, it's not satirizing content, it's satirizing archetypes. It's a play on the stereotypical action hero. George Carlin once said that a joke is just something that has been taken and partially blown completely out of proportion. That is what Duke is vis-a-vis stereotypical testosterone-feuled action soldier men. I NEVER SAID IT WAS A GOOD JOKE. I NEVER SAID I PERSONALLY LIKED IT. I'M JUST SAYING THAT IT'S A JOKE AND THE SEXISM THEREIN IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY OR SERIOUSLY. Your ad hominem attacks do not refute this, they just try to ignore it for reasons I can't figure out. My posts aren't attacking anyone, why are you attacking me?

I've wasted enough of this thread's time. All I'm doing is repeating myself but it obviously bears repeating as people are clearly still completely misinterpreting what I'm trying to say and ripping it apart in completely incoherent ways. I never intended to drag this out so much.

 

[aba1]

when you joke about these issues you show that the idea of these being true is laughable and joke worth somthing to laugh at rather than take seriously

 

[funguy2121]

I still have never stated that Duke was satire of over-the top adolescent-pandering violence.

I quoted you saying it, then saying that you didn't say it. I bolded it in both places. Look again. It's there.

As for the rest of your comments, I don't think of Duke Nukem as a deconstructionist. I don't think that Derrida would have much use for him. I explained how the Wayans brothers movies were analogous. I think you give Duke far too much credit for being sophisticated than it has warranted. A great many hacks have created material that was offensive for controversy's sake (a sure sign that one is not a member of the "art" club), then said later in its defense that it was satire. When intelligent satire is created, its author never has to say so, because others will point it out. I can run through my workplace high as a kite (mods: I don't indulge in illicit substances) playing grab-ass, and then claim that it's satire. That's a cop-out.

Also, how does aping the Ash lines from the Evil Dead movies (and not paying them for it or crediting the author) fit in with your idea that it is satire?

 

[Wintermoot]

As long as no one gets offended

the problem is that people (at least in the US) get offended very easily
OT
pretty much this comment

 

[CounterReproductive]

Doug Stanhope said (I think), "If I say something that offends you, don't get aall pissy with me and storm out offended because before long I'm going to say somethig that only you and mefind funny and the rest of the audience are going to think we are both assholes"

George Carlin RIP said " Its not the word hat is offensive, its the context in which it is used, Noone complains when Richard PRyor or Eddie Murphy call anyone a ******, Why ? Because they are niggers. I know I'm a cracker ass honky motherf*ckin white boy. Why would I take offence at that. Its true "

 

[Flight]

If the company said jokes are made in are alright with it, then yes. Otherwise, one should watch one's language.

 

[Gigano]

Never. Not once. It hurts sensitive people.

Or, as GLAdos would undoubtedly put it, helps them overcome the genetic disadvantage of being adopted into humanity from their biological parentage of jellyfish or similar organisms without any hide or spine.

Not every sensibility should be grovelled before; that anyone - including those who aren't particularly eloquent or refined - be able to utter their provocative views in the free debate necessary in a democratic society supersede most - if not all - concerns that others might be offended by hearing these views.

 

[Chalacachaca]

Everybody uses them here, and nobody gets offended, so yeah pretty much it's okay (at least where I live). Unless you are being hateful, but it's pretty rare to find someone like that.

 

[jamesworkshop]

no since most make a discrimination between races or sexes rather than discrimnate against sexes or races, which are two different things.

 

[Flying Dagger]

No, there's nothing wrong about an individual joke, only in what it accomplishes.

What it creates is a climate in which a certain people become fair game to laugh at, making homophobic jokes might seem to be funny to all ten of your friends, except for the one who is struggling to come to terms with being homosexual, it is another nail on that closet door he is hiding in, a process which can lead to horrific consequences.

All political correctness tries to do is create a climate in which being nice is seen as more important than getting a cheap laugh. I'll admit, I enjoy cheap laughs, but they are never worth the ultimate consequences.

 

[Estocavio]

Yes, its fine.


As a comment though, the legal system is already biased in Favor of Women, so it isnt as funny as it may have been about two decades ago.

Where do you live? In Pakistan where a rape victim goes to prison for adultery because she can't furnish 7 witnesses, or in America where 15 out of 16 rapists never spend a single day in jail?

The dating system favors women. Some female-dominated fields dominate women. That's about it.

Source: http://www.rainn.org/statistics

Edit: This should say "favor."

Australia.

Both here, and in the USA, ive attented Family Courts as an observer, and i can guarantee that anyone who does the same in either of the two will draw the same conclusion.

Its more than the dating system, i assure you.
Also, im no sexist. But it remains factual, that here, if a woman applies for a job, and there are Three other Male candidates, she can attempt to charge the potential employer with discrimination, even if she is less qualified.
And before you try and say it, no, this does not happen in Family Courts. Only with many employers ive spoken to.


Now can we remain on topic, about jokes, rather than the impact of sexuality in modern Society?

 

[The Night Shade]

I'm sorry i couldn't resist

<youtube=rlluWyTT9Gw>

It pretty much sums it up,some people are offended by it other people not, other people are just trying to be fun take your pick.

 

[JasonKaotic]

As long as it's not said with the intention of offending people, it's fine. But if anyone gets offended (which, to be honest, they shouldn't), the joker should apologise.
People get too sensitive about this stuff. Most people actually don't care if you make jokes about their race/sex as long as you don't have any intention of offending them. I usually find white jokes pretty funny, never really offensive at all unless it's hate speech. Same with man jokes (except I usually don't really get them).
Like, I'm quite fond of Hitler jokes, and some people take it way too goddamn seriously. They assume people who like those jokes are some kind of Jew-racist. For one thing we're not even making jokes about the Jews, and again, it's said purely for the joke, no intention to offend.
(Unless the person saying the joke is a jew-racist, then they're just a dick.)

 

[Labyrinth]

That would be unfortunate. It doesn't change the fact that I think that the person who told the joke is well within their rights to do so. You can't predict how people are going to react to anything you say, someone could also have had a bad experience involving a tuba and an chimpanzee, but that doesn't meant that jokes about them shouldn't be made. Obviously, if you know someone will react badly to a joke about rape (or about anything for that matter) then it would be cruel to make the joke in front of them, but otherwise I'm still OK with it.

If someone can make others laugh with a joke about anything, including rape, then good for them as they have brought a little happiness into other's lives.

Problem with those kind of jokes is you just don't know whether people you're telling it to are sensitive to that. I'm a fan of self-aware censorship with derogatory slurs against minority groups, the same for jokes like that. Is it really worth the kind of emotional upset it can cause for a cheap laugh?

 

[Johanthemonster666]

One thing that annoys me about the web community (and indeed my generation) is that the Carlos Mencias,Daniel Toshes and other untalented comedians/trolls of the world have convinced a whole bunch of people that being politically incorrect and "shocking" just for their own sake equals humor and that people who find it inappropriate lack a sense of humor. There's a difference between Mel Brooks politically incorrect humor (which is purposeful and usually makes fun of the bigotry itself) and some of this stuff I see on here which just amounts to "we're laughing at your expense...you mad bro?... oh get a life dude, this is funny 'cause it's controversial!" -_-

Unfortunately, masking racist, sexists and homophobic jokes as gestures of some underlying tolerance or healthy sense of humor is not always an indication of either.

I've heard far more people spit out inappropriate race and sex jokes verbatim (from a comedian or show) without understanding the context or the negative connotations either. Take my one female friend for example: She's an airhead and makes a fool of herself when she tells Jewish jokes (in front of her Jewish friends)gives Nazi salutes to a friend of mine who's of Swedish-Nordic decent calling her "The Aryan", calling me and my BF f**ots in public (she's bisexual herself) and using rather old, outdated slurs to describe the people (while assuring everyone she's not a bigot and is just trying to be funny).

True she may be an idiot: not meaning to be offensive or a bigot at all.... it just makes her sound like a complete moron when she tells politically incorrect jokes out one side of her mouth, and then getting upset when the media or friends make jokes about obese people (which she also is).

This is how I feel about things like "No Homo" or calling people "f*gs" on 4Chan. It's pointless,and makes you sound like a Westboro church member and would definitely not fly if other terms were substituted so casually. To me it's passive aggressive bigotry for people who don't want to be considered bigots to say and laugh at.

And no, changing a slur into an everyday word to describe people you don't like (without supposedly holding any prejudice toward the people who were originally "assigned" that word by society as an insult) does not "empower" victims to laugh alongside everyone else, or change the word's original meaning at all. One black man calling another "ni**er" does not fly when a white or Hispanic person says it, nor does that word's meaning change because it is being used in a "friendly" or "humorous" way or if it is ever turned into an Internet meme.

You can say whatever you want in the end I guess. Be politically incorrect if you must, and say fa*ot or ni**er around me, because I sure won't be the one to punch you in the face.

Just don't expect other people to take it so lightly. ;-/

 

[DEAD34345]

That would be unfortunate. It doesn't change the fact that I think that the person who told the joke is well within their rights to do so. You can't predict how people are going to react to anything you say, someone could also have had a bad experience involving a tuba and an chimpanzee, but that doesn't meant that jokes about them shouldn't be made. Obviously, if you know someone will react badly to a joke about rape (or about anything for that matter) then it would be cruel to make the joke in front of them, but otherwise I'm still OK with it.

If someone can make others laugh with a joke about anything, including rape, then good for them as they have brought a little happiness into other's lives.

Problem with those kind of jokes is you just don't know whether people you're telling it to are sensitive to that. I'm a fan of self-aware censorship with derogatory slurs against minority groups, the same for jokes like that. Is it really worth the kind of emotional upset it can cause for a cheap laugh?

In my opinion, yes. Anything can cause emotional upset, and if you worry about things like that you would end up not saying anything for fear of someone reacting badly. If you have a funny joke, and you think the people around you won't be offended, go for it. If someone reacts badly you can shrug, and tell them you didn't mean to offend them. If they hate you forever for telling a joke, then chances are you don't want be around them anyway, at least I wouldn't.

To be honest though this is all kind of irrelevant, because offensive jokes are almost never funny in the first place.

 

[Hamster at Dawn]

It's ok as long as people can understand that it's a joke. Of course, there are always going to be people who are offended by the silliest of things so that's not necessarily a good way to gauge anything. I would just say that in general it's fine to make jokes about pretty much anthing as long as it's not mean spirited and only said for a laugh.