Are RPGs loosing their RPGness?

[Brotherofwill]

Mass Effect 2 came out and was an instant hit. It had great athmosphere, characters and was polished as hell. The only problem in my opinion: It was hardly an RPG.

It seems to me, in the ever present war to widen a game's appeal to the most amount of people to make the most amount of money, RPGs are being streamlined into action games. ME2 felt like a shooter to me, barely even like an Action-RPG. But if you agree on my opinion of ME2 is beside the point here.

Just recently FF XIII hit Western shores. Same problem: No towns, no open worlds, linear progression, stat simplification, streamlined story progression and less custimization.

I love RPGs when they are big, unforgiving and raw. When you can revisit them countless times and work on your characters. When you have to figure out yourself how to progress through a lively world without anyone holding your hand. When the story isn't so much the main world but rather a loose string to lead you through an open world. What happened to these types of games? (sorry for the drama)

Are RPGs loosing their RPG elements? Are they being streamlined? How do you see them develop in the next few years.

ME2 and FFXIII were only used as examples for their popularity and aren't necessarily the best choices (ME 1 being already an action-oriented RPG). I see this trend in a lot of contemporary games and want to get your input on it.

 

[FactualSquirrel]

Well, I'd say that ME2 was an awful example, but I won't go into that.

From what I can see, you mean the RPGs with levelling systems and open worlds, and they've never actually been that common.

Although TESV might be up your street.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I'm going with Daniel Floyd here: Streamlining is not dumbing down. [http://videogamesand.blogspot.com/2010/02/streamlining-does-not-mean-dumbing-down.html] It's understandable that you prefer a specific variety of RPG, but you can't just keep sounding the alarm because genres are becoming less how they're "supposed to be".

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I don't really consider Mass Effect 2 an RPG anyway. It's a hybrid, it was never meant to be a 'true' RPG. Look at Dragonage, perfect example of an RPG.

 

[Phoenixlight]

I think that they might be but is it such a bad thing? It removes the frustration of not knowing where to go at least.

 

[EMO_of_LiGHT]

Well, it's just that great RPG's take a great amount of time and care to make, and publishers don't want things to take long. They want more money, more quickly. Just look at Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines. Was a very good RPG with plenty of everything one could ask from the genre, but it just needed more polish. With RPG's these days, you either take the time to make it, or you just put RPG elements into Shooters or Brawlers.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Yes, which is a good thing in some games and a bad in most.

 

[Brotherofwill]

I don't really consider Mass Effect 2 an RPG anyway. It's a hybrid, it was never meant to be a 'true' RPG. Look at Dragonage, perfect example of an RPG.

If you look at Dragon Age and compare it to the last type of this game from Bioware, Baldur's Gate 2, then I see the same thing happening. It's simplified and the depth is cut down.

It's not so much that there are no more 'big RPGs' that bothers me, it's just that the way that game-series are developing. Like Diablo 3 not having manual stat progression.

ME2 wasn't such a good example, but I used it for popularity's sake (it seems to be a touchy subject for people). I still think the same trend happened from ME1 to ME2, even if it was hardly a traditional RPG to begin with.

 

[Axeli]

I'm not sure if I'd call ME2 an RPG in the firs place. And the one who starts complaining about some semantic crap related to the literal meaning of "RPG" dies a cruel and horrible death by the way.

There's some truth to what you say though, but I don't mind the genre changing. As long as it keeps its own kind of depth and skill development, that is. Overly simplified systems, such as in ME2, are not exactly what I want from RPGs.

 

[Keava]

Propblem is with using the word RPG in context of video games. Back in the days i remember it was all called cRPGs for Computer Role Playing Games which suited it better, drawing some sort of line between the pen and paper expierience and limited visualisation of it in form of pc/console games.
Those cRpgs never really managed to come close to real PnP expierience with maybe a little exception of first Never Winter Night if you managed to find a good role-play focused server which offered community made content along with easy to handle DM tools so people oculd play their own stories in custom settings.

Somewhere along the time PCs and consoles alike became more popular thus developers started catering to wider audience, which is perfectly normal considering its their job and they want to earn money. Digital RPGs started to mix with other popular genres resulting in miriads of hybrids but also bringing more fresh blood to the genre, letting it get popular outside of your typical 'nerdy' Dungeons and Dragons population of our beloved Earth. For many people i met on the internet Diablo was first contact with the RPG term and i would ardly call it such by my geeky-butt standarts.

For me, cRPGs always been like advanced, more compicated version of those old 'interactive-adventure' books where you would flip to pages according to your choices. You wer eput in a pre-set story with more-less pre-set character and just guided it within the limits of the adventure.
Is it bad? Hell no. Is it RPG? Not in 100% but it wont be anytime soon unless we discover some alien technology of sorts. Game in its concept is closed medium, you are limited by what the developers did or allowed you to do with their product, there is, was and for long time most likely will be sort a wall around whatever you may expierience in digital RPGs, even sandbox ones have limitations.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Many people interpret RPG as being a dialogue or cutscene heavy game so don't really see a problem. I'm not that interested in the genre at the moment so shall reserve judgement.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

Yeah. but not because of the lack of towns...And FF13 REALLY REALLY REALLY opens up at Chap 11, btw.

It's because of lack of depth in leveling.

ME2 pretty much had just skill points.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Those cRpgs never really managed to come close to real PnP expierience with maybe a little exception of first Never Winter Night if you managed to find a good role-play focused server which offered community made content along with easy to handle DM tools so people oculd play their own stories in custom settings.

I hate to be an asshole but the first Neverwinter Nights was on AOL. The first graphical MMO from 1991.

Actually, I don't mind being an asshole but whatever. The facts are the facts.

 

[kioko9959]

WRPG's are usually full of the free roaming, leveling, fighting end bad guy sort of set up with side quests around every corner. ME2 didn't seem to have much free roaming, but i think in this case free roaming would of sucked, the speed at which your character moves, and just general setting and controls would of made searching every single space a bore.

When i comes to RPG's, I find the best fun from JRPG's. Final Fantasy is starting to lack a lot
While i won't complain about the turn based battle system or ATB i will say this
after final fantasy 7-8, the should of switched to the LMBS (Linear Motion Battle System)
I'm gonna use the Tales of Series as a reference here, simply because that series is awesome
Tales of series has been using LMBS since their first game on the SNES Not only does this way of battling give a better sense of immersion, it's also a lot more fun.
Also Tales of series has 4 player co-op drop in drop out battles, something which needs to be used a lot more on consoles with RPG's

Also what's with Final Fantasy XIII's battle system, it's like a super gimmicky LMBS

 

[LWS666]

I think that they might be but is it such a bad thing? It removes the frustration of not knowing where to go at least.

i think the point of the PRGs the TC is talking about are the ones where there isn't anywhere to go. you can throw a dart in the map (but don't because you'd break your TV) and go there, and there'd be a cave or a building there.

 

[aPod]

I find every good game is different. There are plenty of those open world go explore and do the quest at your leisure games. They might not be the ones coming out recently or at least not the overly hyped variety.

The next Bethesda game might tickle your fancy.

As for Mass Effect 2... its an RPG with heavy TPS elements. Why isnt it a Role playing game. In fact i think it MORE RPG than most in that it accurately captures the experience of shooting in space instead of a drop menu that lets me pick attacks. I hope more RPGs take this route.

 

[VoidEternal]

I got some qualms about this, so I'm going to blab my gob off before I answer the TC's questions.

RPG elements in games. This basically turns out to "Put points in shit and make them stronger". When I think of more in depth RPG elements being put to use, I'm reminded of Oblivion, or Fallout 3, Dragon Age (Which I hated). I think when it comes down to leveling elements in a game, we need to put more content in there for the user to interact with. ME1 and 2 was a horrible example of this. Especially as an Adept. You don't really get a lot of anything. Just a few particle effects here and there, and in the end, it's the same shit different day. I feel a prime example of what an RPG can do nowadays is appearing more and more in MMORPGs. The only downside to that is having to deal with other people. (Bad and good, but mostly meh). If you want an RPG with depth, how about giving yourself one, completely clay like character,and having them grow in numerous ways. Strength, ability to jump really high, combining spells, making your own spells (Maybe I want pillars of lightning instead of fire). Basically I feel that developers nowadays are losing their imagination.

Of course, games are an industry, and an entertainment form. They're there to make money. Can't be blamed, but people who are gamers who have been blessed with more depth when you had to use your imagination for most of the spells and shit you could make my taking table top D&D and making your own spin on it are getting the stick. Developers need to take our new technology and go back to the roots of imagination land.

Are RPGs losing their elements? Yes, I do believe that it's dying down a bit. I'm always going to take FF7 as my example, because it's so old, and did things so well. Open ended world, plenty of content, good story, the stats business was simple, but it came down to your equipment, materia, and battle plan that got you through it all. Also, I remember dying a lot when I first played FF7. Maybe I'm just a game master, but I rarely ever die in today's RPGs. Things just seem a little too.... Halo-ish. The standard is going down. People focus too much on aesthetic appeal rather than content. We can split the game into several discs if we wanted to. So why not?

Are they being streamlined? Yes, I could agree with this as well. I'll take Dragon Age as my example. I HATE DRAGON AGE. It had a wonderful story, and I loved all the fucked up choices it had you make, without labeling you a "good guy" or "bad guy". You were just doing your job. However, the gameplay was awful. The abilities and such, crap. No armor variation, weapon variation. At the end of the game, I felt my character looked just as wimpy and pathetic as when I started. Take into the fact that the most powerful move in the game was for a Ranger? Give me a fucking break. It felt like I was playing a Half Assed MMORPG with barely any abilities to use for my characters. The use of Tactics was clever, but ultimately pissed me off. How come my party members have to be specifically told to heal me, or themselves? Whatever happened to AI? Go onto Mass Effect 2, and I realized, after I beat the game, that I didn't really DO anything. I ran around shooting people and casting Shockwave, and raping various planets of their resources. It was like I was some kind of Space Aged One Man British Empire. It felt like there was so much there, but it was all a lie. How come all the Adepts in the game can only really telekinesis shit around? How come I can't Force Choke someone? Why do all the loyalty abilitiy suck balls? These are all questions that can be answered with a simple answer. "Run and gun." As in, they were running through the game, trying to make the story as likable and compelling with good guy, bad guy shit in it, they forgot there was combat in the game. I'll take an experimental system over bland funtionality anyday

Where do I see RPGs going in the future? Well, as of right now. Straight into the shitter. I don't feel compelled anymore. I'm rarely challenged. And why is there always ONE ULTIMATE way to do things? If I train through the entire game using a bow, how come I can't shoot three people at the same time? Why can't I climb walls like Altair? If I'm a mage, how come it's so hard for me to annihilate people Richard (Looking for Group) style? If I'm a warrior, how come I can't do any fancy cut-scene style attacks, or kill someone in such a manner that their friends think twice about coming after me? Why, why, why?

It's because it's shifting away from what we should be trying to do, to sticking with what works. All the game types are starting to meld into one another, like some diseased melting pot with all the imagination and creativity torn out of it. It'll pick up maybe when the economy is done butt fucking us. But, if people are too afraid to bust out of the box, then we're not going to get anywhere in gaming, period.

Sorry for the ramble. I've been up too long. xD

 

[ranger19]

Some serious walls of text, so apologies if this has already been stated, but I think RPGs are getting better at actually being role-playing games. (From those I know about at least.)

Take the classic example: Final Fantasy (the older ones, before this linear XIII came out). Sure, you could explore all over, but you were never actually role-playing in the game. You assumed the guise of a very specific character, and had to do things his way: if the character doesn't realize that the cave is a trap or that your "ally" is really an enemy, you can't do anything about it, even if you realize it yourself. (I believe there was a prime example of this in The World Ends With You, where your character didn't understand a coded message.) You had to steer him around until he figured it out.

But games like Oblivion and Fallout let you mold your own character, choose your own specialties, and take quests in your own order. You're actually role-playing within these fantastic worlds, which to me is the core of what an RPG should be. So in a way, I think they're getting better.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

RPG's are kind of losing their touch with their old elements.
Luckily, there's still Mistwalker, who might give us some of the ol' spice in time.

I doubt all jRPG's will turn into new age dungeon crawlers or RPG/action games...

Fact is, genres change, and also the popularity of a certain genre in its era. I can't remember the time I played a decent platformer...

 

[CmdrGoob]

Mass Effect 2 is still definitely an RPG, at least for any definition of RPG that makes sense to me. You have class and skill development choices and dialogue and story choices. That's certainly most of the core essence of roleplaying according to any definition of RPG that makes sense to me (except for exploration).

FF13, on the other hand, is so ruthlessly stripped of RPG elements even the creators have sounded unsure as to whether it is still an RPG in interviews.

I very much like ME2's streamlining - it keeps the core RPG concepts of story & dialogue interactivity and skill/class choice while streamlining the combat to keep it as sharp and as fun as a dedicated third person shooter. I would happily see more of that kind of RPG.

FF13 is the complete opposite - it 'streamlines' out all the engaging parts of roleplaying, and holds the players hand so tightly it practically plays itself with only minor input from the player. Not good. It takes a lot more than decorating the combat system with numbers to make an engaging RPG.