Are RPG's too easy?

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Shoggoth2588

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ScrabbitRabbit said:
The Megami Tensei series is notoriously difficult, even if you grind. In the later games, especially, bad party composition or a single reckless decision will get you instantly killed. A lot of people cite Nocturne as being really difficult, though I "only" died about 7 times in my first run through (although hard mode is much, much harder), but SMT 1 and 2 can be pretty awful and SMT IV can be pretty tough in places.

The rest of the series is a cakewalk but Final Fantasy 2 is pretty hard, though it can be made easier by battering the fuck out of your own party because of the funny levelling system, I guess. I hear the PSP and GBA versions soften the difficulty somewhat though?
I've only played SMT4 and like you said, all it takes is one simple mistake to royally screw yourself over. Even if I'm in the lowest-level of Naraku, if I don't get a preemptive strike on a demon there's a good chance that I can lose some members of my party and I'm about 30+ hours in at this point. I liked Final Fantasy II but it was definitely an oddball, especially if you don't understand how to level everybody up.

MeatMachine said:
I'm far more concerned with WHY each RPG is difficult or not.
-Does RNG dictate a substantial amount of combat, making even reliable strategies corruptible through sheer unluckiness?
This is what keeps me from going back to the original Final Fantasy. It's not just the incredibly high encounter rate but also because each encounter has a chance of spawning in a party of high level enemies...steps away from the town entrance...or dungeon exit.

---

Thanks to grinding, there aren't a lot more RPGs that I didn't have too much of a problem with. Even challenges like Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts and, the Weapons in Final Fantasy VII were utterly devastating at first...but then hours of grinding later and the challenge is alleviated a bit. The only time this wasn't the case happens in the Elder Scrolls games where enemies level alongside your character. Oblivion especially is a game where I found it much more of a challenge to play normally than to just have a level 1 character.
 

Ryallen

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I don't think that I need to repeat what everyone else has been saying, but I'll give it my best shot:

Shin Megami Tensei is most certainly NOT an easy RPG. Persona, Devil Survivor, you can't just mash attack and get through. You have to use elemental weaknesses efficiently. Know when to block, know who to use against who, and so on. It's a thinking RPG, and it deserves a little credit for that.

Normal Mode on Dragon's Age Origins has given me more trouble than Dark Souls ever has. I honestly couldn't tell you why I wiped three times to a common fight with some randie Darkspawn before I got sick and changed my difficulty to easy. It wasn't even a trap. They were just standing there. It hurt me to play on Normal.

If you really count MMOs as part of RPGs in your search, I can't speak for WoW, but Extreme and Savage Trials in FFXIV have given me more trouble than they are worth. A friend of mine and I were stuck on one for a solid hour before we finally beat it by the skin of our teeth. My raid group banged our heads against the wall that is Titan Extreme and couldn't beat it until the next day. Basically, if MMOs DO count, they there are difficult RPGs out there.
 

Akjosch

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CritialGaming said:
Can any of you think of a single RPG that actually presented a challenging threat?
Dwarf Fortress' Adventure Mode. It's not a question if you will lose - you will. The game is about the journey, there is no winning condition.
 

CritialGaming

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Akjosch said:
CritialGaming said:
Can any of you think of a single RPG that actually presented a challenging threat?
Dwarf Fortress' Adventure Mode. It's not a question if you will lose - you will. The game is about the journey, there is no winning condition.
Does that make the game hard? Being impossible to win doesn't mean that it is a difficult game in theory. If ultimately losing is part of the game then the challenge only lies in lasting as long as possible right? I guess by definition it would have to be hard because you would ultimately get to a point of impossibility and be forced to loose.

A few people have mentioned this and I have to agree upon reflection. RPG's are more about story than usually anything else. The journey and the experience along the way is often what makes those games as memorable as they are. I mean I can remember almost every single detail of Final Fantasy 7, and it isn't because of the gameplay. It was because of the story, the events, the characters.

To this day I can't watch the ending of Crisis Core and not cry. Hell I cry during the few scenes were Aerith and Zack are just talking to each other and enjoying the company, because I fucking know what's coming. I hate that final unwinnable fight because no matter how awesome I've built Zack up, defeating all the super bosses, do all the shit in that game to make him a god, no matter how well I do, how hard I fight, I can't save him from his fate. It rips me apart every fucking time. That's why I love it. Because it impacts me the same way on the 40th playthrough just as hard as it did on the first.

Name me one other genre that can do that to people? RPG's have the power to do things with story telling that simply cannot be done in other games. No matter how impactfull an FPS is, the gameplay almost desensitizes the player from the full impact of the story (if there even is one) because during gameplay you are a walking death machine. You feel the stakes in an RPG because you evolve and grow with your characters.

Maybe difficulty isn't the point. Maybe the gameplay and systems in RPG's are supposed to be designed in a way that are just challenging enough to keep you invest. As the story progresses, you progress in your understand of the systems, you feel the characters growth because of your system mastery. Both things combine to invest you into the world. Which is why RPG's also often have such a harsh contrast between the games we absolutely love and sink ourselves into, and the ones we hate.

Very rarely do I ever see people on the middle ground of RPG games. In my experience in talking with people, they either really enjoy a game, or really dislike it. And it only happens with RPG games, any other genre there are plenty of games that people are in the middle on. But RPG's really speak to you, or really put you off, at least that's how it seems to me. And the reason for these feelings vary from game to game.
 

Droopie

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CritialGaming said:
No matter how impactfull an FPS is, the gameplay almost desensitizes the player from the full impact of the story (if there even is one) because during gameplay you are a walking death machine.
Aren't there some FPSes that use the fact that you kill so much as a way to enhance the story, even if just by emphasizing how immoral it actually is? I can't think of a good one off the top of my head, but don't something like that would be a pretty brilliant way to add another layer of depth to the gameplay. I think BioShock tried to do something like this but really didn't pull it off well: all the talk about how "you've committed many sins" was more eyeroll-inducing than anything else. But it's definitely a cool idea.

That's just a nitpick though, I don't have any specific examples and I do agree with your post. In a game genre driven by story, it would make sense that the gameplay is easy enough that you can focus on the plot before the controls.
 

DoPo

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CritialGaming said:
Name me one other genre that can do that to people?
Action games
Adventure games
Platformers
Puzzle games
Visual novels
Resource balancing games[footnote]not an "official" genre in as much that people don't refer to this class of games as...this class of names, yet they very much exist[/footnote]
Player driven MMOs

I can go on. The thing is you're asking the wrong question. It's not genres that define whether a person will find a game memorable. Whether or not somebody will find a particular game memorable and impactful relies on the person themselves and the game itself. The genre is tangential.
 

CritialGaming

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DoPo said:
CritialGaming said:
Name me one other genre that can do that to people?
Action games
Adventure games
Platformers
Puzzle games
Visual novels
Resource balancing games[footnote]not an "official" genre in as much that people don't refer to this class of games as...this class of names, yet they very much exist[/footnote]
Player driven MMOs

I can go on. The thing is you're asking the wrong question. It's not genres that define whether a person will find a game memorable. Whether or not somebody will find a particular game memorable and impactful relies on the person themselves and the game itself. The genre is tangential.
Not exactly what I meant. Of course any game can have lasting memories upon players. Those memories are for different reasons though.

What I'm talking about is the ability to bring you that same emotional response everytime you play. The crush impact of a plot twist or epic moment.

Although I suppose any genre CAN do that, but why don't they? Why has no other game ever been about to hit me the way games like FF7, Rogue Galaxy, Xenogears, and Legend of Dragoon have hit me.

Sure I've had memorable moments. Downing powerful raid bosses in WoW, fighting my way up a Titan in God of War, but none of these experiences feel like they've lasted. By the time I got around to God of War 3, the sheer scale of things lost some of it's luster. Sure it was an epic game and had a lot of cool moments. But I wasn't blown away anymore. Same thing goes for WoW itself. That rush you get when beating a boss, doesn't happen the next time you beat him.

But again, by contrast, Crisis Core makes me cry every single time. After dozens of playthroughs, I still cry.

Why? Why does it always seem to get me? I've seen it, I've seen the same scene a lot, and yet it always affects me.

I don't believe there has been another game in any other genre that had ever affected me like that.

Lost Odessey! That's another one. Fuck that game man! Making me cry all the time. It's bullshit, I don't wanna be sad.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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CritialGaming said:
DoPo said:
CritialGaming said:
Name me one other genre that can do that to people?
Action games
Adventure games
Platformers
Puzzle games
Visual novels
Resource balancing games[footnote]not an "official" genre in as much that people don't refer to this class of games as...this class of names, yet they very much exist[/footnote]
Player driven MMOs

I can go on. The thing is you're asking the wrong question. It's not genres that define whether a person will find a game memorable. Whether or not somebody will find a particular game memorable and impactful relies on the person themselves and the game itself. The genre is tangential.
Not exactly what I meant. Of course any game can have lasting memories upon players. Those memories are for different reasons though.

What I'm talking about is the ability to bring you that same emotional response everytime you play. The crush impact of a plot twist or epic moment.
And so, my reply addresses that.

CritialGaming said:
Although I suppose any genre CAN do that, but why don't they? Why has no other game ever been about to hit me the way games like FF7, Rogue Galaxy, Xenogears, and Legend of Dragoon have hit me.
I don't know why you don't feel that way about other games, yet other people who aren't you do. It might be something to do with peoplebeing different and having different tastes or something.

CritialGaming said:
Same thing goes for WoW itself. That rush you get when beating a boss, doesn't happen the next time you beat him.
Yeah, it's almost like I said player driven MMOs when I said "player driven MMOs".

But again, by contrast, Crisis Core makes me cry every single time. After dozens of playthroughs, I still cry.

CritialGaming said:
Why? Why does it always seem to get me? I've seen it, I've seen the same scene a lot, and yet it always affects me.
It is because the game has stats and levelling in it? I'm sure you'd have felt the same if chess also had stats and levelling.

Or, you know, it's because you like that game. Which is not strictly related with what the genre is.

CritialGaming said:
I don't believe there has been another game in any other genre that had ever affected me like that.
Which means...what, exactly? That you are the sole measure of what games are or aren't impactful? Can you give me a complete list of all games I should be moved by and not moved by, then, as I am clearly doing it wrong.
 

CritialGaming

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DoPo said:
No man of course not. I realize that everybody is different. Everybody likes different things, and is affected by different stories in different ways. Yet I can't speak to other people's experiences can I?

Let me ask you this then.

What games have hit you the same way Crisis Core hits me? You list out genres but don't give any examples.

This question goes to anyone who might be reading the thread as well. If you have a game that gives you an emotional impact no matter how many times you play that game, then let me know.

The thrill of victory doesn't count. I am strictly talking about impact generated from story, not from your personal triumphs.
 

Bad Jim

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CritialGaming said:
What games have hit you the same way Crisis Core hits me? You list out genres but don't give any examples.

This question goes to anyone who might be reading the thread as well.
Here's a free one
http://www.kongregate.com/games/2DArray/the-company-of-myself

I'll also mention Spec Ops: The Line. It's not the sort of game you just play through for giggles. Though that might be the reason why we don't have more games like that.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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CritialGaming said:
DoPo said:
No man of course not. I realize that everybody is different. Everybody likes different things, and is affected by different stories in different ways. Yet I can't speak to other people's experiences can I?

Let me ask you this then.

What games have hit you the same way Crisis Core hits me? You list out genres but don't give any examples.

This question goes to anyone who might be reading the thread as well. If you have a game that gives you an emotional impact no matter how many times you play that game, then let me know.

The thrill of victory doesn't count. I am strictly talking about impact generated from story, not from your personal triumphs.
The Legacy of Kain series - action games.
The Walking Dead - adventure.
Company of myself [http://www.kongregate.com/games/2darray/the-company-of-myself] and Swapper - platformers.
Portal and The Talos Principle - puzzles.
Black Closet - OK, I don't really play much (if any) visual novels and BC isn't really a clean representative of the genre, but it's close enough. Also, it is built in a VN engine, which helps with it feeling like one. Yet it also has strong elements of resource management.
XCOM[footnote]I'd include it not because triumphs feel good but because how awful failure feels. Not in the sense of "oh, you fucked up" - it's more than that. Soldiers dying doesn't just deprive you of a pawn - they feel close because you've been together through the tough times. Even if a mission has casualties but is successful, the fallen will be mentioned with sadness. And a failed mission backed up by emotional weight, too.[/footnote], Sims, This War of Mine - "Resource managing"

These are just a couple of examples for each of the genres I mentioned, which I've played. I don't play MMOs but EVE online is player driven and Ultima Online has a lot of player-driven content. And since you're asking me specifically, here are more that don't fall into the above:

Warcraft - first time I played the campaign
played without video for some reason. Yet I let it play listening only to the audio because I was so both so captivated by it and fearing that there was no cutscene replay. Thus I only listened to the entirety of it and it still brought me to tears. Afterwards, I found that I could indeed replay it and it worked, yet now it's burnt forever in my mind as the time I stared at a black screen because of story I didn't want to miss.

The Stanley Parable - it is an exquisite game. Me and a friend spend half a day playing it together when we first got it and it's, to date, one of my most memorable gaming experiences.

Moirai [http://store.steampowered.com/app/496920/?snr=1_7_7_151_150_1] - possibly the shortest game I've played. Sure, some games can be spedrun or otherwise finished fast, but Moirai is like 5 minutes in total. It still managed to get shit out of those 5 minutes.

Postmortem: One Must Die - if Moirai is one of the shortest games in existence by design, then this might be one of the games with the shortest possible playtimes without this length being a gimmick. Concept is simple you are death[footnote]Not THE death, but A death[/footnote] and you have to go to a party and kill somebody. You can literally walk in and kill the first person there and you will complete the objective. You're even told so. In fact, that's what I did the first time, just to test if it's indeed possible. Yet I did have to think about it, too. At the end, you get brief snippets of what happens as a result[footnote]there are some tensions going on in the setting that you might exacerbate or reduce subdue based on your choices[/footnote]. You can also play in order to explore everything and talk to everybody then make up your mind about who to kill. Let me tell you, when I finally thought I found "the correct" target, I was pretty surprised at the result. I used the "RPG method" of finding a victim and...the results turned out much worse than expected. Without making a big deal out of it, the game managed to subvert and surpass any expectation I had. In a very good way.

Save the date [http://paperdino.com/save-the-date/] - probably falls under "visual novels" but...I'm not sure. I guess it's safest to mention it separately.

The End of Us [http://www.the-end-of-us.com/] - it's an "interactive experience, if you will but whatever. Without ever speaking or even writing a word, it manages to say a lot.

One Chance [http://www.kongregate.com/games/lemmibeans/one-chance] - do you want to sacrifice yourself to potentially save your loved ones or would you rather spend your last moments together? Choose wisely, you don't get many chances to decide. [sub][sup][sub][sup][sub]excluding cheating[/sub][/sup][/sub][/sup][/sub]

Second Sight - it's shooter-y, albeit third person, but also emphasises on stealth-y. I'll be honest when I first saw it, I picked it for the graphics. Seriously. More specifically, it's because I saw the screenshots and the game looked good for the time, however, pretty much all games were coming out on 2+ CDs, so my thought was, and I kid you not, "Did they really manage to make it that good and still fit on one CD?". I played it and it turned out it not only looked good but the gameplay was interesting, too. Yet, after spending time with the game I realised how much the story grabbed me. It did manage to keep me. As even more of it unfolded, I found myself reeling.

Magicka - not sure where exactly to put it in terms of genre, hence an independent mention.

Aliens vs Predator 2 - OK, probably not the entire game, but there is a small slice I very, very much enjoy. I re-install and re-play the first level as marine and/or predator on a regular basis. Why? Because they feel so correct. The marine campaign in particular has a fantastic beginning. There are absolutely no enemies there. You (almost) cannot die[footnote]although, a friend of mine hilariously subverted it once. He was showing how the level was completely safe and sprinting through, when a truck exploded and landed on him. The only reason he got crushed was because he thought it was safe - had he gone very slightly slower, he'd have been fine.[/footnote] yet, the atmosphere, the pacing, the environment, the setting - everything is impeccable. Hence why I keep going back to it.

Saints Row 2 - probably not for the reasons you'd think. Story-wise some of the events...actually, a lot of the events, are revolting. More in the sense of "monstrous" not merely "just so badly written". The main character is a thug, a mean thug. Who deals with other such people. Their world is brutal and they brutally deal with obstacles. The amount of disproportionate force and retribution employed made me feel queasy and I can happily eat dinner while watching especially gruesome and nauseating movies. It's an experience I do not want to go back to because it's still fresh in my mind.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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Guilion said:
The first one is Sweet Home, the thing that makes the game hard is trying to keep everyone alive rather than grinding. yes your characters still have levels, hitpoints, etc but killing a single enemy awards you with a shit ton of experience at the expense of receiving a shit ton of damage in return as even the weaker enemies have bullshit DPS implemented on them. Hell one of the earliest enemies has petrification which is an death sentence if it gets the doctor of the party.
Also don't forget how miserly the game was with it's healing items.

Man that one was a trip.