Arkham City.... Sexist?

[LilithSlave]

Batman is super masculine, Catwoman wears leather and uses whips...

That is a little bit lame, in my opinion. It seems to especially have gotten worse. Batman used to be more corny and campy and fun. Because it was exactly what a caped superhero should be, a bit silly. Instead, in order to make him "relevant", they made him darker and edgier and tried to make him more "macho" or something like that. At least Robin has managed to escape some of the of "coolness" makeover that Batman has gone through.

It seems to be particularly bad in the recent movies and video games. I know everyone loves "Batman Begins", helped by an attractive guy dying in it.

This is why I always liked Spiderman a bit better than Batman. He's not near as hyper masculine as Batman and many other masked heroes. There are some problems in Spiderman, too. But it's not nearly as annoying to put up with. I'd much rather have my hero a joke cracking, someone scrawny and sweet geek like Peter Parker than the brooding Bruce Wayne.

There's also something wrong in the typical DC and Marvel comics that almost every male is a huge muscleman and every woman has hips and boobs twice the size of her stomach. DC is even worse, they don't even seem to have any protagonists/"good guys" that go outside of a very specific and annoying ideal of looks. Marvel at least has things like Nightcrawler. You see a lot less of that sort of thing in DC.

Still, you are missing one thing. This all doesn't come down to a few people using the word "*****", even more than Batman in general, this game seems to be doing things wrong.

 

[Zhukov]

I dunno, I'm a guy. Maybe it all comes across differently to women.

I don't like the idea that only woman get to decide what's sexist against them. It's just used by certain people to shut down debate.

Not the point. It's just that people are much more likely to notice unfairness when they're on the receiving end.

Something that a woman might view as sexist will often be regarded by us guys as just business as usual.

 

[BlindChance]

And so, looking at context is irrelevant to determining message? Really?!

No, context is absolutely relevant. But it also doesn't let you off the hook. Again, I argue: The real question here is the insults not being delivered. Where are the cat insults? The only one I've heard is in the Riddler challenges, where he asks that the thugs make sure she doesn't claw up the furniture. It's few and far between. But you hear '*****' on every second line. That speaks volumes about the designer's understanding of Catwoman, and how the emphasis is less on cat, more on woman, and especially more on sex object.

If it were to accuse it of laziness, it would have a problem with that being a lazy portrayal of feminism.

How the hell do you get to there?

 

[Xixikal]

Bah humbug!
I'm sure I'm not the first to say it: who cares?

It's a game. If you really find it so intensely distressing, go and write a petition or organise a rally. Or better yet, do something meaningful with your life - like open a male brothel, so that you can fully express your vibrant egalitarianism.

(I don't see why you should be complaining anyway, when blatant and powerful femininity is being thrust in your face. I mean, aren't they a symbol of a woman's ability to be sexy and kick ass? I know I have no problem with Jacob Taylor rom Mass Effect strutting shirtless upon my screen)

 

[BlindChance]

That is a little bit lame, in my opinion. It seems to especially have gotten worse. Batman used to be more corny and campy and fun. Because it was exactly what a caped superhero should be, a bit silly. Instead, in order to make him "relevant", they made him darker and edgier and tried to make him more "macho" or something like that.

Wait up. Lilith, I'm on your side, but your history here is out. Batman's origins are in the detective comic genre ("Detective Comics", ala DC, made him to try and capitalize on the booming superhero genre) and it's a genre a lot darker than the superhero one as a rule. Check out some Dick Tracy; it's filled with nasty stuff. Over time, he did fall prey to the '60s trademark campiness, before Frank Miller did The Dark Knight Returns, an attempt to return Batman to his darker roots. It's from here that the wider "Dark Knight" conceptualization of Batman comes from, and it's one that Arkham City is playing in very clearly. (Catwoman notably gets a Long Halloween costume option... one that is WAY better than her campaign costume, I note... in challenge mode. The Long Halloween was a direct sequel to one of Frank Miller's works.)

Arkham City's problems descend directly from its own choices, it's not a fault of the wider interpretation of Batman. Long Halloween's Catwoman has none of these problems, and Batman: Year One's Catwoman had fewer of them. Both are in the same tradition.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

I dunno, I'm a guy. Maybe it all comes across differently to women.

I don't like the idea that only woman get to decide what's sexist against them. It's just used by certain people to shut down debate.

Not the point. It's just that people are much more likely to notice unfairness when they're on the receiving end.

Something that a woman might view as sexist will often be regarded by us guys as just business as usual.

And to decide who's right, we debate. Judgement should not automatically fall to the woman on this.

Well considering that the use of '*****' has two different meanings depending on what gender it's directed towards, I think women should be deferred to when trying to figure out whether something dealing solely with women is offensive or not.

If it doesn't affect guys in the same way, why should we have as much say?

 

[ShadowsofHope]

...

What, you expect low life thugs that are generally uneducated and meatheads to tell Catwoman to "please get off of me and stop kicking me in the face, kind lady"? I'm sorry, but manners generally fly out the window when you are getting beat on by anyone, and the profanities are going to start flying. Calling a woman a "*****" when she kicks you in the face with high heels is no different from calling a man a "dick" or "bastard" for punching you square in the nose.

The thugs in the game don't care if you are Batman, Catwoman or even fucking Superman. They are going to cuss you out, and they are going to try and kill you. The personalities of the criminal thugs themselves are immature and sexist towards women - quite obvious if you ever walk into a prison in real life as a woman and let the prisoners see you, not the developers. Reality can and will always be sexist in scenario's against either gender, it's an unfortunate fact of life, but also one that doesn't just go away because we pretend it doesn't happen.

Equality at it's very most base should pretty much be this for the genders: "If it's not okay for a guy to do it, it's not okay for a woman to do it, either. If it's okay for a woman to do it, it's okay for a man to do it as well."

 

[Zeterai]

There's a relatively small limit to actual terms one can apply to a woman, in this context. Most of them are intrinsically sexual, being references to prostitution. Having the villains scream "Slut!" or "Whore!" would have caused no end of sexism accusations, despite Catwoman being at her core a very sexual character. Really, they fall back on ***** because there just aren't many well defined phrases to substitute it with that won't cause even more problems for them.

And note that saying something ridiculously silly like "That damned cat!" is part of causing more problems because nobody will take the thugs seriously. They needed an insult that gets the point across that a bad person is angry, but that won't get the studio slammed for sexism by implying she sells her body for money. End result: They STILL get slammed for sexism.

I think there's a term for this. White Knighting. Taking abject offense at something that really isn't all that offensive to begin with, that has nothing to do with oneself, and leveling complaints and accusations about it as loudly as you can. It absolutely matters who said the terms in game, no amount of arguing will change this fact - angry, sexually frustrated thugs are getting beaten to hell and back by a woman in skintight leather, and you expect them to remain gender neutral? Even if there were overt sexism on display by these characters (which there really isn't), that'd be a GOOD thing, as it would depict utter realism. Put another way. If Catwoman walked into an average bar and started beating the crap out of men, would it be realistic to have a tattooed biker muttering about "that damned kitty cat"? No. It would not. Sexism exists in real life, and trying to pretend it doesn't only makes it worse. Portraying it as coming from lowlife thugs who can't come up with a better insult than gender while getting their asses handed to them is unarguably empowering.

To be honest, I wish they really HAD used overly sexist terms when insulting Catwoman, as it would have reinforced how sexism is itself a crutch used by people who can't handle being beaten by a woman. Instead, they resort to overuse of the word ***** because the studio is justifiably terrified of people throwing a tantrum because they're oversensitive, and can't understand the deeper meanings behind actually addressing sexism in a game.

Which they do anyways.

This is why we can't have nice metaphors.

 

[BlindChance]

If it doesn't affect guys in the same way, why should we have as much say?

Our interpretation of the game should have just as much weight, based on a close reading of the game in question.

That the alleged infraction is serious is something we should be willing to concede, since we're insulated from its effects and ergo are not in as good a position to judge.

So in other words, a man making a "No, it's not sexist, and here's why..." is more than fair. A man saying, "Shut up, it's not that big a deal" isn't.

 

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****.

That claim has already been given a rebuttal to:

HULK BET THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY TRY TO DEFEND THIS HORSESHIT DISPOSITION BY SAYING IT?S OKAY BECAUSE THE ONES SAYING IT ARE THE ?BAD GUYS.? WHICH ISN?T ACTUALLY TRUE BECAUSE LOTS OF THE SECURITY GUARDS AND A GOOD GUY FROM LAST GAME ALL CHIP IN WITH THE ?*****? TALK JUST AS MUCH AS EVERYONE ELSE. (2) AND IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY BATMAN OR CATWOMAN RESPOND TO ANY OF THIS THAT MAKES HULK THINK OTHERWISE? IS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE WAY IT?S SHOWN TO MAKE HULK THINK IT?S ANYTHING MORE THAN SEXIST FUN MEANT TO ELLICIT A FEW PAINFUL LAUGHS FROM AN AUDIENCE WHO DOESN?T KNOW ANY BETTER?

Oddly enough, I already explained why that's a shit argument in my first post, but you conveniently deleted it. See:

Couple of very obvious problems with this one:

1. It's the BAD GUYS that are calling her a *****. It's the BAD GUYS beating her up. That means the game is taking a bunch of sexist assholes and saying, "See these guys? Don't be like them!" And hell, even if BATMAN called her a *****, the game still wouldn't be sexist. And here's why:

2. It's not sexist to call a single woman a *****. It's only sexist if you say ALL women are bitches. I mean, lets face it...Catwoman is not exactly Mother Teresa. But guess what? It's OK for Catwoman to be a total ***** without implying sexism. Just because SHE'S a *****, that doesn't mean that all women are bitches.

3. I'm sure these thugs have nothing but compliments for Batman, then? Wait, I forgot. Only women can be victims of sexism.

I really hate living in a culture where all of this is not EXTREMELY obvious.

I'll leave the rest of it up here too, since I'm assuming you didn't bother reading the first time.

 

[BlindChance]

There's a relatively small limit to actual terms one can apply to a woman, in this context. Most of them are intrinsically sexual, being references to prostitution. Having the villains scream "Slut!" or "Whore!" would have caused no end of sexism accusations, despite Catwoman being at her core a very sexual character. Really, they fall back on ***** because there just aren't many well defined phrases to substitute it with that won't cause even more problems for them.

And note that saying something ridiculously silly like "That damned cat!" is part of causing more problems because nobody will take the thugs seriously. They needed an insult that gets the point across that a bad person is angry, but that won't get the studio slammed for sexism by implying she sells her body for money. End result: They STILL get slammed for sexism

I get where you're coming from with this, but I disagree. "Mangy feline." "Gutter trash." "Alley cat." "Little sneak." There's a whole heap of terms that could have been used. If nothing else, they could have diluted the use of the gendered term by removing its exclusivity. That they didn't speaks to laziness and issues of gender representation.

 

[rednose1]

Not really, I figure its trying for realism.

Honestly, if you are getting your butt handed to you by a chick, you're going to call her a ***** 9 time sout of 10. Would being called something else insulting really be any better?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

That is a little bit lame, in my opinion. It seems to especially have gotten worse. Batman used to be more corny and campy and fun. Because it was exactly what a caped superhero should be, a bit silly. Instead, in order to make him "relevant", they made him darker and edgier and tried to make him more "macho" or something like that.

The original Batman was a dark character. Though there is a level of camp in any of the older comic books it was specifically made campy by the 60s television show. And campy Catwoman was far far more sexist than modern Catwoman.

No, context is absolutely relevant. But it also doesn't let you off the hook. Again, I argue: The real question here is the insults not being delivered. Where are the cat insults? The only one I've heard is in the Riddler challenges, where he asks that the thugs make sure she doesn't claw up the furniture. It's few and far between. But you hear '*****' on every second line. That speaks volumes about the designer's understanding of Catwoman, and how the emphasis is less on cat, more on woman, and especially more on sex object.

As I asked Lilith, how is this in any way inappropriate to the story and setting? Cat jokes are cliche kitsch not "dark and gritty" or very likely to come from the mouths of thugs unless they go the "pussy" route which they were probably unable to for rating reasons.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

If it doesn't affect guys in the same way, why should we have as much say?

Our interpretation of the game should have just as much weight, based on a close reading of the game in question.

That the alleged infraction is serious is something we should be willing to concede, since we're insulated from its effects and ergo are not in as good a position to judge.

So in other words, a man making a "No, it's not sexist, and here's why..." is more than fair. A man saying, "Shut up, it's not that big a deal" isn't.

Agreed. But that's the thing. Most guys in here are going saying the former rather than the later. We aren't trying to make others think that sexism isn't a problem, we're arguing that we don't think sexism is being promoted by the game.

And the original comment that was quoted simply stated that since the commenter was male, he figured he might view the situation differently than if he was female. Which is entirely reasonable. Because as much as I can go on about sexism and racism and homophobia and all other sorts of prejudices, the fact remains that I am a unoppressed, middle-class, white male and so haven't had any personal experiences with prejudice directed at me for any reason. I can have theoretical knowledge, but it's still different than the personal knowledge that one gets from being the target of prejudice.

 

[thespyisdead]

lets see... if you were in a goons shoes, and you just lost a tooth, would you say something nice, like you have nice boots, or would you be calling her a *****... i think the latter... feminists, please start making sense or STFU

 

[Zeterai]

There's a relatively small limit to actual terms one can apply to a woman, in this context. Most of them are intrinsically sexual, being references to prostitution. Having the villains scream "Slut!" or "Whore!" would have caused no end of sexism accusations, despite Catwoman being at her core a very sexual character. Really, they fall back on ***** because there just aren't many well defined phrases to substitute it with that won't cause even more problems for them.

And note that saying something ridiculously silly like "That damned cat!" is part of causing more problems because nobody will take the thugs seriously. They needed an insult that gets the point across that a bad person is angry, but that won't get the studio slammed for sexism by implying she sells her body for money. End result: They STILL get slammed for sexism

I get where you're coming from with this, but I disagree. "Mangy feline." "Gutter trash." "Alley cat." "Little sneak." There's a whole heap of terms that could have been used. If nothing else, they could have diluted the use of the gendered term by removing its exclusivity. That they didn't speaks to laziness and issues of gender representation.

No. Those terms could not have been used. Because they're bloody stupid. Sorry, but I cannot fathom a hardened, murdering criminal saying "Damn you, you little sneak!" without breaking the game's decidedly dark tone. They're outright silly, and have no place being uttered by someone who has real intent to cause actual harm to you. You'll note I already explained this, and it was ignored.

 

[BlindChance]

As I asked Lilith, how is this in any way inappropriate to the story and setting? Cat jokes are cliche kitsch not "dark and gritty" or very likely to come from the mouths of thugs unless they go the "pussy" route which they were probably unable to for rating reasons.

Calling her a 'mangy feline' is cliché kitsch? Fine. How about 'sneak', 'coward', 'thief' etc. which all point to her being a burglar?

There's a secondary issue here, which I think is also within the point you're arguing: It's the Mamet Dammit. The obligatory use of swearing and foul language to declare, 'Look, we're in a real, nasty setting!' And again, it's regarded as lazy writing and poor design. You can get to the same point without over-using this stuff. (The line is always: If you notice the swearing, it's the Mamet Dammit. If not, it's just actual cadence.)

The issue is not the word '*****'. The issue is the overabundant use of the word '*****', and this is the point those who make the 'it's bad people saying it' argument are missing.

 

[Moromillas]

Oh dear god... A popular video game has been accused of SEXISM! ... MAN THE CANNONS BOYS!

 

[shrekfan246]

This is the same site that gave away a huge spoiler and told the goers of that site to screw off, so im going to take everything they say with a pillar of salt.

If you're referring to the Kotaku article, then I'm relatively sure they're also the site that labelled the female black hobo in Deus Ex: Human Revolution as racist.

OT: I'm too tired to make an argument, and everyone else had made them for me really. I haven't played enough of the game to notice the excessive use of pejorative language, but quite frankly, Arkham Asylum had a lot of nasty insults slung at Batman. I also think it's a bit naive and sensitive of those linked articles to completely dismiss the context that the game is based in a prison city. I understand their whole arguments about context for the dialogue itself, but the context of the city firmly eschews any sense of light-heartedness. What would you expect to hear while traveling the rooftops of a prison city filled with the inmates who were too bad to be sent to a normal prison? That context is just as important as any other sense of context, no matter how stupid arguments of "realism" or stereotypical portrayals might be.