Arrested ArmA 3 Devs Denied Appeal for Espionage Charges

[Hero in a half shell]

This is terrible, and another example of law being applied for its own sake, not for any pursuit of justice.

The law common among a great many countries is that what is viewable from the public space is legal to photograph, regardless if anything that is viewable is physically on private space. To have law which says otherwise would make public living not only unmanageable but also incredibly unjust, perhaps threatening decades of imprisonment for innocent people.

Not quite, You can be arrested in the US if you are photographing things that have large signs saying "DO NOT PHOTOGRAPH UNDER PENALTY OF LAW". You see them from time to time approaching a military post and other Government buildings.

Guards might not arrest you (in the US), But they will detain you and ask lots of questions, If you are taking pictures of even the gates into a military post. They will suspect you of terrorism, and thanks to President Obama, may (in the future, I doubt they would do this today) detain you indefinitely without lawyer, trail, or arrest (even American citizens).

Fun story: At university we had to go for a walk around the city and take interesting photos of our journey, of course we ended up snapping photos outside an army barracks, and about 50 metres down the road were shouted at angrily by the gate guard to come back to him. We told him what we were doing and he calmed down pretty quickly, and said that it happens all the time with tourists, but strictly speaking we should categorically not be taking pictures of any army installations, and then he just let us go, pictures intact, because he was a rational human being and it was pretty clear we weren't IRA terrorists.

I suppose we can't really pass judgement unless we know the exact details of their 'information gathering'. Did they tresspass? What photo's did they take, how long were they there for? and what is their companies exact link (if any) to other military organisations? As far as I know the Greeks said they tresspassed on military land, but other sources say that the only photos were taken from a public area. I still don't think they were spying on Greece for the Czech government, because both countries are part of NATO, so they're pretty much sharing military bases, equipment and soldiers anyway, and it just seems like such a large measure to go for such trivial information.

 

[DjinnFor]

See, Greece is a sovereign nation. As such, they have the right to protect their military secrets.

Whether or not they're a sovereign nation has no bearing on how much they suck at being a sovereign nation, thank you very much. Regardless of your objections the point still stands.

Can the developers prove this in court? That will remain to be seen. I suspect the trial out-come is 70-30% odds against the developers.

It's very easy to prove this. You just provide employment records indicating that you work for Bohemia Interactive and were there on BI's orders and that's all the proof that you should need for a functional court to declare you innocent. It's not really that hard to back up a claim that you are at a place as part of your employment with a private corporation; just give a testimony from your boss telling you to go there, and the employment records proving you work for that company. There's all the evidence you need to disprove Mens Rea beyond a reasonable doubt if the prosecutor offers NOTHING whatsoever as counter-evidence or counter-argument.

Now you might bring up the possibility that they were secretly paid off by some malicious organization, or that BI is just a front for a government PsiOp, or any other sort of objection. In which case I would respond quite simply: wouldn't the Greece government actually have to prove a claim like that in court for it to be a valid objection or counter-argument? Since when is "well gee maybe they could be guilty" a valid argument in a court of law by itself?

The chances that such a thing is true is astronomically low, of course. And the chance of Greece being able to prove it is equally low. So to actually prove them guilty in a real court of law would be practically impossible. As such the only way you could make that statement is if you assumed Greece "couldn't get it right"... or was a corrupt fascist hell-hole like one poster put.

That is a point against them as well because that "realistic war games and simulators" might be being developed, or used by, a non-friendly nation (to NATO, UN, US does not matter).

Last I checked, "this knife you manufactured might some day be used to stab someone by somebody with malicious intent" wasn't a valid reason in and of itself to throw you in jail for making and selling knives.

 

[Saulkar]

I would agree with the espionage charges. 20 years may be a bit much, but if they were in my country, I would want a stiffer penalty.

For doing what? Taking pictures in a public location that happened to include military assets in the background? Assets clearly visible from Google maps?

 

[OutsiderEX]

The thing is, this sort of thing has happened before; a few years ago, a group of British planespotters were arrested for the same crime in similar circumstances; the Greek authorities refused to believe that people were interested in aircraft in such a manner that they would film them; fortunately, they managed to get off, but only after a year in prison.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/07/greece

Basically, Greece is known for doing nonsense like this and overreacting to foreigners with cameras.

 

[OutsiderEX]

See, Greece is a sovereign nation. As such, they have the right to protect their military secrets.

Whether or not they're a sovereign nation has no bearing on how much they suck at being a sovereign nation, thank you very much. Regardless of your objections the point still stands.

Can the developers prove this in court? That will remain to be seen. I suspect the trial out-come is 70-30% odds against the developers.

It's very easy to prove this. You just provide employment records indicating that you work for Bohemia Interactive and were there on BI's orders and that's all the proof that you should need for a functional court to declare you innocent. It's not really that hard to back up a claim that you are at a place as part of your employment with a private corporation; just give a testimony from your boss telling you to go there, and the employment records proving you work for that company. There's all the evidence you need to disprove Mens Rea beyond a reasonable doubt if the prosecutor offers NOTHING whatsoever as counter-evidence or counter-argument.

Now you might bring up the possibility that they were secretly paid off by some malicious organization, or that BI is just a front for a government PsiOp, or any other sort of objection. In which case I would respond quite simply: wouldn't the Greece government actually have to prove a claim like that in court for it to be a valid objection or counter-argument? Since when is "well gee maybe they could be guilty" a valid argument in a court of law by itself?

The chances that such a thing is true is astronomically low, of course. And the chance of Greece being able to prove it is equally low. So to actually prove them guilty in a real court of law would be practically impossible. As such the only way you could make that statement is if you assumed Greece "couldn't get it right"... or was a corrupt fascist hell-hole like one poster put.

That is a point against them as well because that "realistic war games and simulators" might be being developed, or used by, a non-friendly nation (to NATO, UN, US does not matter).

Last I checked, "this knife you manufactured might some day be used to stab someone by somebody with malicious intent" wasn't a valid reason in and of itself to throw you in jail for making and selling knives.

Remember that until relatively recently, Greece WAS a corrupt fascist hell-hole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974

 

[Erttheking]

I...I don't think I'll be going to Greece...ever. No offense but...the place kinda scares me now.

 

[natster43]

Huh, I just realized one of them has the same last name as me. Crazy. Also this is really shitty and I hope they are not found guilty.

 

[katsabas]

See, it's stuff like this:

Greece won't be around long enough for the devs to serve their sentence making all of this irrelevant.

and this:

just give greece some money and they will be released in no time. beggars cant be choosers...

that really blow this out of proportion.

Greece always had military and it has always been OBLIGATORY to serve for a year AT LEAST. One of the reasons the economic recession came to pass is because billions of euros were spent to adequately equip our ground and marine forces. The fact that about 85% of the fucking internet and the gaming community just now realize that something like the Greek Military actually exists doesn't have anything to do with the present situation. Search engines are right there. So search.

Now, about the situation at hand. I have been shutting up this far in IGN forums, CNN forums, Escapist forums and Destructoid forums, just to see what asinine remarks the gaming community can bring. Not bad, I gotta say.

With all that is happening in Greece right now, this sort of incident is considered extreeeeeeemely small fry. Noone and I mean, NOONE is going to bother with this. We are in debt with 12 digit numbers that grow every day and you actually expect someone to come and resolve this in a day ?

The main reason anyone in here bothered with this is because a game is involved. Which is fine. It stings when someone takes a stab at something you like. What I cannot abide, however, is the actual belief that anyone who posted remarks about Greece's legal system, is under the impression that every law in their respective country works precisely as it should. And I call bullshit on this because there is no way in hell that is true.

As for the 20 year number, yeah, it IS ridiculous. I wouldn't worry about it too much though cause bureaucracy is a nightmare everywhere and Greece is no exception. Trust me, I know. From the comments on the various newspaper articles back home, most Greeks from outside the legal system, which means your every day folk, know that the gentlemen meant no harm. We are not morons, we have mastered common sense, as surprising to some members here that might seem.

BUT.

Both of these gentlemen should have asked for permission when trying to take pictures of military locations and equipment. It doesn't matter whether or not it sounds stupid or not (not anymore, at least). Why ? Because it's the country's laws and they should be respected whether they are Greek, Italian, Libyan, Portuguese, American, Brazilian, Japanese, Australian, whatever. Being in such a business that deals with taking pictures of military targets all the time, they should have known way better. There is a military base right outside my house, in Piraeus and you can see 'no photos allowed' signs in visually accessible places.

What is also defenestrated is the fact that they are foreigners. Greeks have been thrown to jail also and for the exact same reasons.

 

[katsabas]

the thing is that it seems that they want to make an example out of the two of them when there is not really need to do so.

its not like they just jumped a fence, sneaked into the complex and made photos of scientist standing ankle deep in yellow cake.

A good point. But you have to consider that the people responsible for the military complex have their jobs to consider and in this economy, well...

and if they did sneak into the complex, well it seems your goverment shouldnt had spend all that money on ground and marine forces and hired some guys to guard your military institutions.

Another good point.

the goverment could had just taken all the footage they shot and kept them, find out if they were spies and give them max 2 years and a fine.
but 20 years? for this? isnt it kind of an overkill?

Like I said, 20 years IS too much but you are preaching at the choir, here my friend. 2 years is what you get if you get caught knocking over a Fucking Road Sign (that's inscribed at the back of almost every sign in Greece ) The whole thing stinks to high heaven but at to who is willing to deal with all this red tape is anybody's guess.

but again, it seems that they want to make an example out of the two..

It is not so much as making an example as much as it is: 'Look at us ! We are being paid to sit here and watch over dirt and we actually do our job well and we are still relevant in a time of peace' which is pretty much bullshit up to 11.

 

[katsabas]

2 years is what you get if you get caught knocking over a Fucking Road Sign (that's inscribed at the back of almost every sign in Greece )

wait..... what?

how the hell do you have the strenght to knock over a road sign?
i know that they aren't entirely fixed to the ground so you dont get cut in half when you crash into one but still how the hell do you just knock over a sign?

do you have a gym up on the olymp?

or is this inclusive when you crash into one with your car?
this rather harsh penalization is kind of contra-productive....

Stop signs, No Parking signs etc. We have A LOT of hooligans here. And this includes when you hit one with your car. But I think it is more of a way to scare people off.

 

[ServebotFrank]

Both of these gentlemen should have asked for permission when trying to take pictures of military locations and equipment. It doesn't matter whether or not it sounds stupid or not (not anymore, at least). Why ? Because it's the country's laws and they should be respected whether they are Greek, Italian, Libyan, Portuguese, American, Brazilian, Japanese, Australian, whatever. Being in such a business that deals with taking pictures of military targets all the time, they should have known way better. There is a military base right outside my house, in Piraeus and you can see 'no photos allowed' signs in visually accessible places.

What is also defenestrated is the fact that they are foreigners. Greeks have been thrown to jail also and for the exact same reasons.

Except that they were not even filming a military base. It's literally a video recording of the country side with a hanger some miles in the background while they were driving. I don't recall any of us insulting your country men by the way, we are insulting your judicial system. It's complete bullshit, a few years ago some British folk were arrested for plane spotting and filming it. They were found innocent...After a year in prison.

Seriously, these guys have literally done nothing wrong, there's not even a reason to bring these guys to court, there's literally not a single piece of evidence to convict them. In most countries, if you can't find evidence the suspects are automatically let go. By the way, Here's a quote someone did explaining why this whole trial is complete and utter bullshit.

They got pissed at a company building a model of a strategically important island by a company that sells military training.

What, you mean this island?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

It's not exactly a hidden base.

 

[Baldr]

I would agree with the espionage charges. 20 years may be a bit much, but if they were in my country, I would want a stiffer penalty.

For doing what? Taking pictures in a public location that happened to include military assets in the background? Assets clearly visible from Google maps?

Did you know that it is illegal to take pictures of military buildings and nuclear power plants in the United States, even if on public land? We have a lot of freedoms, but if this is illegal in the US, it got to be even worse in Greece.

http://books.google.com/books?id=rJHNqWYGJtIC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=Legal+military+photograph+airplane&source=bl&ots=USvezgywXh&sig=aDmGfbyb3-SGGaWfUOW0n314pU0&hl=en&ei=NptcTe-JH5L4swPx4qjlBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[antipunt]

Spoiler

What, you mean this island?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/825/islandm.jpg/]

With this 'military' base?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/airporte.jpg/]

And these bomber targets?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/201/airplanes.jpg/]

Yeah. Bullshit charges from a bullshit country. Australia is just as likely to be invaded in this day and age, and also has a combined military/regular airport. Want me to go take my DSLR and get some pictures of the tail numbers on some F/A-18s?
I can, you know. It's because my government aren't fucking tards and know anybody who goes to war can afford to get some, you know, satellite images or perhaps some long range photos from a nearby mountain. Or a small child with a pen (crayon) camera.

Here, have a picture of our hangers in incredibly high detail:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/hiluxh.jpg/]

Do you know why we don't care about pictures of our bases?
Because we have these things called 'radar' and 'SAM's and because any retard can find satellite images of 99.9% of the earth for free, let alone buying them from companies who don't care if they're not meant to take pictures of certain areas. Why the hell would you send 2 random guys with a video camera to get your information? What purpose could that serve, to then leave the incriminating files un-encrypted on their video camera instead of swallowing a MicroSD card or 5?

No. Apparently common sense goes out the window when paranoid idiots are in power. This is nothing but scapegoating so the government LOOKS like they're actually doing something, yet it's backfired because now the whole world is going to search for this mythical air base and suddenly people who got back from holiday are going to go 'Hey! I have a pic of that place! Imma put it on facebook!'.

That may be the single strongest yet funniest rebuttal I've seen on any forum, ever.

I award you as many internets as would fill the volume of your enormous balls and brain.

Captcha: "Make my day". Yes, you did.

Imma join da bandwagon and applaud that post.

Well done

 

[Muspelheim]

Well, I doubt Greece will remain a functional state to keep them incarcerated for very long... Or they'll have to throw them out to make room for all the political and racial prisoners, if Golden Dawn keeps gaining ground like it does.

Honestly, why not just slap a fat fine on 'em and destroy the pictures, it'd get the thing done with and get the court's salary for the day secured. Everyone gets to go home. Is that an idea?

Hell, in their current state, you'd think the last thing the government would want is two more mouths to feed for two decades. Unless someone else foots the bill, and then the Germans will never let us hear the end of it...

 

[GamingAwesome1]

That's the most disproportionate punishment for a complete non-offense I've ever heard. I find the idea of being potentially jailed for 20 whole fucking years just because I was on holiday and the photos I took happened to have a military base in the background to be both ludicrous and incredibly scary.

Seriously, Greece, what the fuck?

 

[NortherWolf]

Ah, yes Greece. Birth of democracy and all that.
Or, a fascist dump with corruption so bad it looks like Tropico. Not the first time they've done shit like this to foreigners as been stated already.
http://www.svd.se/nyheter/inrikes/polisanmalde-valdtakt-i-grekland-atalas_6089215.svd (sadly, in Swedish)

In short, a girl's raped in Greece, she flies back home to Sweden and receives a medical check which supports her story.
The Greece in turn file charges against her for lying. All because "Filthy foreigners!" and that one of the guys raping her was the son of a local politician.
So yeah, I trust the Greek legal system about as highly as I would trust the legal system of say, Burma.