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The Rogue Wolf

Stealthy Carnivore
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Nov 25, 2007
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Back when it was still a burgeoning and struggling media, film was criticized as "not being art"; it, and its somewhat-more-reserved brother photography, were called simply a mechanical process, incapable of the "representational" aspects media such as painting and drawing showed- it could only show us what was there, just like our eyes, and not impart the feelings and views of the creator.

Hell, way back in the day, another old guy was complaining about a new type of media, saying that it would ruin the memory skills of the young and that only his preferred method could maintain civilization property. The "old guy" was Socrates, the "new type of media" was writing, and the only reason we know that Socrates said that was because Plato wrote it down. And let's not even get into how much some people absolutely loathed the printing press.

Ebert's problem was that he didn't understand video games; he admitted as much not long after his famous "video games are not art" quote. But I think that this inability to understand games as an art form seeped out of a deeper bias: I believe that Ebert was of the mind that art must be engaged passively; basically, that one should sit down, shut up, and look at this thing, and maybe you'll learn something from someone smarter than you. That's pretty much the antithesis of games, where one drives the narrative by one's self (usually) and can alter at least some portion of it themselves, even if only by losing the game.

I believe that a lot of people are approaching this argument the wrong way. Instead of saying "games are art because they resemble other forms of art in ways A, B and C" (and I often feel that cutscenes and QTEs in games are lazy ways of evoking the art aspects of film in games), we should start constructing arguments along the lines of "games are art because they can do these things that no other media can" and work from there.

I will say, though, that gaming's ascension as a form of art will probably mimic that of film in one important way: It will be the independent creators, not the big companies, that will trailblaze the way towards greater quality and art. I expect that we'll see many more independent games looking to push the barrier than any big-budget AAA production.

Condensed version: We'll get there, guys. We just have to stop mimicking and start innovating, keeping an eye on what makes games different from all other media.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Dragonbums said:
I think you meant to quote Gorrath my friend. My comment actual comment unfortunately is not as thought out as his.
I've had a short attention span of late, due to what has been diagnosed as chronic pain. Makes me spacy. I did indeed quote the wrong person. My bad.
 

Olas

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Dec 24, 2011
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Gene O said:
I always felt that if video games were not 'high' art according to Roger Ebert it's because video games achieved too much. The label 'art' could not contain them.

The next time someone tells me 'video game stories are crap,' I'm using a variation of her reply. Maybe something like "Books and movies want you to be completely passive. Nothing is expected of the audience except to come along for the ride."
This is pretty much my take on it as well. The term "art" was never meant to be applied to something as dynamic and interactive as videogames. Art is something that is crafted a certain way to be viewed or experienced as it is. Videogames are (or at least can be) so much more than that. Some videogames are essentially living breathing worlds of their own.
 

sumanoskae

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Dec 7, 2007
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I've read some of these "Books"... it was about the unhealthy relationships between supernatural creatures, it had some strange ideas about love and sexuality, but it didn't seem to know any of this. It was almost physically painful for me to read.

I cannot for the life of me understand why when people compare games to books or films, they compare great films to mediocre games.

People act like theirs a shortage of artistically profound games, and that simply isn't true. Once or twice a year, I discover a film I consider to be genuinely magnificent, and once or twice a year, I do the same for games.

Excellence isn't any more rare among games than it is among film or literature.

Further more, while it's true that many games ignore or at least neglect narrative, there are still many games with great stories. I don't think storytelling is a weakness of games at all, in fact I think there are certain stories that only work as video games.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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Mimsofthedawg said:
canadamus_prime said:
First of all... seriously? you're actually asking why some of us don't want to play with ONLY toys our whole lives? That some of us what something that can compel us to think, help us interpret the world or our surroundings, that speaks and reflects on humanity, both in a moral, philosophical, and metaphysical sense, something from which we can derive meaning? Why would we want that? Why WOULDN'T we want that?

The problem is that the moment I or anyone else says that we want that, people think we want ALL games to be that. We don't. I don't know why this is so difficult. I don't know why some people demand that everything be a Mario, or a Halo, or a mindless shooter or a shitty ass strategy game. Why can't we have SOME, SOME GODDAMMIT, not the majority, it can be one percent, just a fucking portion of games be a compelling, interactive experience which reflects upon the human condition.

I don't even get why it's controversial, except if I assume that the person asking "why?" presumes that I or anyone else who might mention it wants all games to be that way. No. We don't.

Some people don't believe games (or an interactive medium) are even capable of achieving such an artistic prowess - I disagree because games already have. What I want, and I think a lot of others want, is for this artistic vein to grow, and for the mainstream to acknowledge and recognize and celebrate this potential, a la film festivals, book awards, touching poetry, revealing photography, captivating paintings, etc. As I've said many times before, however, this doesn't mean we can't have our fun and "toys" too, but I believe most people view games as "toys", little better than action figures or paint ball guns, a childish distraction grown men enjoy. Games are more than this, and I'd argue most games are more than this.

I once encountered an escapist who literally told me that what I described (that games are "childish distractions grown men enjoy.") is all that games have ever been and all they ever will be. I don't believe that what they are nor is that what they're growing into.

But I cannot stress this enough, you'll still have your shooters, your platformers, your indie scene that is looking to take a simple concept and turn it into a puzzle game, your AAA developers who add all the bells and whistles to make a blockbuster, hardcore game of various genres, your traditional role playing games, your city building games, your train simulation games, etc. etc. etc. etc., but I hope that we'll add to this games which belong to genre's defined by the emotions they convey (drama, comedy, romance, action/adventure, etc.) rather than what perspective and how you choose to kill people. That's why it's called growth. we aren't taking things away. We're expanding what we already have.

If you're satisfied with where we are, that's fine. I'm not.

EDIT: if it's not blatantly obvious by now, my original quote said that some of us don't only want to play with toys our whole lives. ONLY DAMMIT. I want my toys too, but sometimes I want something more compelling.
Ok ok, settle down. Firstly, ok I misread your post. Secondly who says games can't do that stuff you said without the vindication of being called "art" by people who are too stuck up to give games the time of day anyway. Why should developers go out of their way to try and impress these stuck up snobs when trying to do so is completely futile. Shouldn't they focus instead on making the games they actually want to make? If these games are compelling and have artistic merit and whatever, great; if not then as long as they're still fun nothing is lost.
 

Benpasko

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Jul 3, 2011
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Elate said:
All those games mentioned, are shit. No way about it, they're boring and dull.

You want a good compelling game, with a strong, well told narrative, and engaging GAMEplay, and a good matching aesthetic? Bastion. I say it every time, and it's 3000x more fun than Dear Esther will ever be, games like that, to me are what some would consider "modern art". You know the kind, a black square painted on a white canvas which people stare at thoughtfully rubbing their chins as they come up with contrived reasoning behind it, and the social message it is trying to convey from the artist, when really, it's a black square on a white canvas. I feel that is what Dear Esther is trying to be, in short, pseudo-high brow bullshit.
I really liked Dear Esther. The artistry was in the environment design, as far as I'm concerned the story was just an excuse to take a walk through the levels.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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Video games are a legitimate art form and as such deserve all the legal protections and social freedoms as other art; the artistic merit of each individual game is up to the player to extract and interpret as they see fit.
 

2xDouble

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canadamus_prime said:
2xDouble said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Same reason anyone acts like labels mean things: Government funding.
Since when did video games need government funding?
It doesn't. But surely developers being handed millions to billions of dollars, free from expected financial returns, is good for the betterment and advancement of the medium, is it not? especially if a significant portion of that goes to college-level education in the subject and to allow new and up-and-coming artists to practice and perfect their art without constraint (within the confines of education space, of course... it's tax money, not miraculous civil reform). I'd say that's worth having a title.

A man can dream, though... a man can dream.
 

Charli

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Nov 23, 2008
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Thunderous Cacophony said:
So, who is ready for another rousing forum discussion of games and art? I know I'm not, so I'm gonna go get a waffle. Let me know how it plays out.
Yeah I got enough spittle flung my way from the last round. Crumpet?
 

The Hungry Samurai

Hungry for Truth
Apr 1, 2004
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Archangel357 said:
Being one of these artsy-fartsy Lit PhD candidate twats (with a games library going back 25 years and spanning about 1,000 titles), I do agree... up to a point.

There are art forms, and then there are works of art. There is no doubt in my mind that games are at least the equals of books and movies etc regarding the former, but...

Let me put it like this. To me, VERY few books deserve to be called "art". The same goes for music, paintings, plays, movies, poems... and, indeed, games. Dan Brown is not art. Michael bay isn't art. Will.I.Am is the furthest thing from art there is. By the same token, I am unable to consider the latest brown military Battle of Honorduty to be "art".

I think the problem us hoity-toity types have with games as art is that the medium is more dominated than others by the equivalents of Michael Bay and Dan Brown. The reason people keep mentioning Limbo, Braid etc is because they are closer to, say, Haruki Murakami's novels or Lars von Trier's films - works not written solely for a commercial purpose, but because of an auteur's need for artistic expression. And alas, those games are few and far between. As an avid gamer, I refuse to call Resident Evil 6 "art" not because I thumb my nose at the medium, but because it is a shoddy product - in the same way that as an avid movie-goer, I refuse to call Adam Sandler "comedies" "art"; in a nutshell, to do so would demean the concept of artistic expression, and thus. the medium as a whole. Something designed by accountants and created by committee is very rarely "art".
Well said. I think it's hard to pin down what qualifies as art, but for every GTA IV there is a Saints Row, for every Lord of the Rings a Dead Alive, and for every Bram Stoker, a Stephanie Meyer, and so on in EVERY media, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

It's what makes the human experience itself a work of art.
 

ShadowHamster

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Mar 17, 2008
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Ebert was the biggest reason for this, and he never fully understood the implications of him bashing art. Other critic friends of his tried to buy him a PS3 and the games Flower and Journey to try and show him, and he refused to play.

I still have respect for him, because in the end he addressed it with "I don't know this media, and I never should have spoken about a media I do not know" at that point I forgave him. His words had meaning in that field, though, and it's taken some time for the injury to soften.

I liked this strip, but it seems like old news. The Museum of Modern Art has now gone on record as recognizing specific games as art, and saying that some games are art. I'm okay with this, a Video Game isn't art, but some Video Games are. Some Video Games are just Games, and neither is wrong or bad, nor should either be shamed for not being or being art. Video Games are a new media altogether, and so some of it will be art. I have the same feelings towards Books, and Movies.
 

klaynexas3

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Dec 30, 2009
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ticklefist said:
Would you feel like an artist if you were told exactly what to make comics about, how they are to be scripted and exactly how to draw them? I wouldn't. Same applies to games.
Do...do you not know how most comics are done? Because most comics have a bunch of different people working together to make them, not just one guy that draws, writes, produces, and everything with it. Very few major works of art are actually made by one man alone, and quite frankly collaborative projects tend to be the best. If each musician in an orchestra just decided to do whatever the fuck they felt like doing while paying now mind to the other people in the orchestra, I'm afraid to say it will sound like utter shit. It might be art, but that doesn't make it any less shit. That's how games work, someone has an idea, and they work with multiple people to help them flesh it out. That one person does NOT call all the shots, because I'm doubting one man can be a brilliant writer, programmer, animator, musician, voice actor, tester, and mass producer. If that's what you define as art, you have the most superficial standards I've ever seen.
 

Paragon Fury

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Jan 23, 2009
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As for that last line? I've said it once, I'll say it again and a dozen more times:

Bayonetta is one of the best female video characters we've had. Ever. Better than Vaynce. Better than any incarnation of Lara Croft. Hell, I'd say she is better than most characters you could name from movies and books.
 

Gorrath

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canadamus_prime said:
Gorrath said:
canadamus_prime said:
I have to wonder why we should even give a shit whether or not we get the elusive and utterly arbitrary "art" label.
Luckily, we already have it. But as to why we need it, in the United States at least, it gives us protection against censorship due to being protected speech. That is a very, very important distinction. I actually do not at all agree with them that "art" is a label that is arbitrary, not when there are immense legal ramifications at stake.
Which raises a whole other issue. Why does something need to be considered art in order to be protected from censorship due to being protected speech? Shouldn't any form of self-expression qualify whether it be "art" or not?
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection. I actually think that any speech, so long as it does not create direct and unwarranted harm (yelling 'fire' in a theater, threatening to kill someone, libel/slander ect.) should be free speech. But, things being what they are it is good that games are recognized as art if for nothing else than to be granted that protection. Not all speech that is free is considered artistic expression of course, but all artistic expression is considered free speech, no matter who it might offend. Whether or not the art label means anything outside of that, I don't much care actually. I am just one who would hates censorship with a passion and am very glad that the status of games has been settled. As for expanding free speech to include things it does not right now, I am all for that, but that's a different fight.
 

Blood Brain Barrier

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Nov 21, 2011
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Come on fellas. Tetris is not art. It doesn't say anything about the nature of the world, about what is. Or does it? When you think about it, it probably does and on a deeper level than Forrest Gump saying "Life is like a box of chocolates". You've got someone sitting at their desk trying to fit different shaped blocks into lines, for no particular reason or reward at all except that they enjoy it. So yeah. I don't know where I'm going here but I'll stop.

I think what is more likely to happen rather than games being upgraded to art, is the university arts being downgraded, which has sort of been happening the last 50 years with music, writing and a few other areas. No one is going to accept anymore an Oxford professor's opinion that eastern music isn't skilled, which was quite common view in the first half of the 20th century because it was being judged by fixed western standards.

Of course I may be wrong because I see courses like "game design" entering the curriculum, but that was bound to happen anyway. A dude with a Bachelor of Jazz isn't necessarily better at playing Jazz than someone who's been busking his whole life.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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I just realized that one of the tags is "ARE VIDEO GAMES ART ARE THEY ARE THEY REALLY CRITICAL MISS"

Not sure if funny or just baffling.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
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Paragon Fury said:
As for that last line? I've said it once, I'll say it again and a dozen more times:

Bayonetta is one of the best female video characters we've had. Ever. Better than Vaynce. Better than any incarnation of Lara Croft. Hell, I'd say she is better than most characters you could name from movies and books.
Bleg. If she's the best we can come up with, maybe it's time we admit video games aren't art.
 

Requia

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Gorrath said:
Well, there are some forms of speech that are not protected. Pornography for instance, is not granted free speech protection.
Yes it is. Hell, there are critical pieces of free speech case law (Hustler Magazine vs Falwell) that are based on porn.