Article: Choices in Gaming
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I never actually bothered the crunch the numbers. Uhhh thank you for going out of your way and proving me wrong?Maet said:
You know, if you've chosen to be "evil," you probably completely deserve to be scolded like a puppy, you dysfunctional wretch. There's no other response. You can't say, "good job" - no, it wasn't, you were a impediment to us all. You can't say, "you were evil" and leave it laying there on the table and expect it to mean anything. The only correct, meaningful response to being evil is, "you little prick, look what you did." Yeah, you got the bad ending, because you're reaping what you sow.
That said, meaningful choices in general are good, and not enough games provide them. Apparently dynamic content is hard because it's a whole lot easier to code and provide content two concrete possibilities than it is to code and provide content for 10,000 extremes between those two choices. Not to mention coding 10,000 consequences of each action.
I should probably get to work on that. It's really just a matter of the game's design structure. Most are made to be linear because we know how to make a linear game. But, the thing is, we've got variables, we were able to make dynamic worlds since Rogue, just most designers don't bother.
That said, meaningful choices in general are good, and not enough games provide them. Apparently dynamic content is hard because it's a whole lot easier to code and provide content two concrete possibilities than it is to code and provide content for 10,000 extremes between those two choices. Not to mention coding 10,000 consequences of each action.
I should probably get to work on that. It's really just a matter of the game's design structure. Most are made to be linear because we know how to make a linear game. But, the thing is, we've got variables, we were able to make dynamic worlds since Rogue, just most designers don't bother.
The thing is that these games give you a choice. It's just not the one you want. But it is EXACTLY what they offer you:
The choice between good or evil.
The problem, as you have mentioned, is that good and evil are highly subjective. I've messed with that numerous times playing and talking about D&D: "Is slavery evil?" "Is it evil to kill kobolds?" "What about Chromatic Dragons?" "Can I randomly kill demons? As a Paladin?" "Is raising the dead evil? If they give me permission before they die? What if I want to get raised?"
The questions continue.
And frankly, the hardest questions happen when you never have to deal with them again, but you remember them: I still am haunted by a time I ignored a guy skip fare at a local public transit provider because I wanted to get home; but I could have stopped him. It's done, it's over with, but I still regret the decision I made
Which means that they really can't be made in a game, because you can replay a game. You can't replay life (short of reincarnation; and nobody I know of has come back with a full set of memories).
The choice between good or evil.
The problem, as you have mentioned, is that good and evil are highly subjective. I've messed with that numerous times playing and talking about D&D: "Is slavery evil?" "Is it evil to kill kobolds?" "What about Chromatic Dragons?" "Can I randomly kill demons? As a Paladin?" "Is raising the dead evil? If they give me permission before they die? What if I want to get raised?"
The questions continue.
And frankly, the hardest questions happen when you never have to deal with them again, but you remember them: I still am haunted by a time I ignored a guy skip fare at a local public transit provider because I wanted to get home; but I could have stopped him. It's done, it's over with, but I still regret the decision I made
Which means that they really can't be made in a game, because you can replay a game. You can't replay life (short of reincarnation; and nobody I know of has come back with a full set of memories).
Ok I havebnt played fallout 3 yet because my computer has been out of action... so i just have to ask, is blowing the heads of mutants, killing them etc give you bad karma normally?Jumplion said:
because if it doesnt, then this just proves that the games karma rating is hypocritical at best... it is bad to kill them all off in one foul swoop... but you can go aorund and hunt them to your hearts content WTF...
the problem is that having coices that are deemed good and evil I think are stupid, because it just puts accross the game developers own personal morals and forces you to commit to there ideals... someone with half a brain would know how to write a story where the moral choices arnt as black and white, just like in real life,espically in a post apoc type situation, where morals might take a back seat to survival....... it is all grey, and that the story dynamics should reflect that by giving each person you talk to there own view on things... (as an example) so one guy might scold you for shooting that guy with the gun, where another person would praise you because you saved there daughter from being shot.... the differnt endings idea I always thought was a cheap attempt at developers going for "replay value".
PRAISING ME LIKE A SAINT WILL YA?!?! Well maybe I don't wanna do it!Erana said:
You bring up an interesting point, the whole "you can replay a game" thing. This is what I'm hoping Heavy Rain will overcome. In many games, you have a choice, you choose it and then you regret it. It wasn't the "right" choice that you wanted, so you go back and choose the other one. It's always between a "good" or "evil" choice when that happens and you don't know what to choose. It's similar to a "choose your own adventure book" in some ways.ZacQuickSilver said:
In Heavy Rain, however, since there is no "right" or "wrong" choice, I'm hoping that this causes the player to want to see what will happen next. There is no "right" choice that will give an outcome that you want since you don't know the outcome fully. Whereas in the previously mentioned "reload level" stuff you at least partially know that you might get something good for doing this or the other thing.
Yet your here. You probably spent more time formulating a response to this thread then it would have reading the actually OP.Richard Groovy Pants said:
You don't have to jump. I very rarely do the homework in my classes. (Only geometry and german do I ever think about doing my homework because of the former being slightly difficult and the latter teacher likes to give detentions a lot.)
B in every class, I must be doing something right.
Huh, I thought I sent it to you. I tried to send the message to more than 5 people at once but it seemed to fail. And I was being lazy and sent it to the people that were shown as online.Richard Groovy Pants said:
I'll send some more messages out for this. By the by, when are your exams over?
nope, killing super mutants and (feral) ghouls don't give you negative karma.Acaroid said:
Don't you give me that propagandist bullhonkey mister! My father would never accept a single B grade on my report card. And I need an A average to go the high school I plan on going to. That, and my sister is in MIT so I have a legacy to live up to >_>;Bulletinmybrain said:You don't have to jump. I very rarely do the homework in my classes. (Only geometry and german do I ever think about doing my homework because of the former being slightly difficult and the latter teacher likes to give detentions a lot.)
B in every class, I must be doing something right.
I don't have anything deep to say on this matter, but I do agree that good/evil choices undermine the integrity of open-ended games.
Jumplion said:Don't you give me that propagandist bullhonkey mister! My father would never accept a single B grade on my report card. And I need an A average to go the high school I plan on going to. That, and my sister is in MIT so I have a legacy to live up to >_>;Bulletinmybrain said:You don't have to jump. I very rarely do the homework in my classes. (Only geometry and german do I ever think about doing my homework because of the former being slightly difficult and the latter teacher likes to give detentions a lot.)
B in every class, I must be doing something right.
You missed the point, with a b in every class that means I have on average a 86%. Without homework which is 10%. If I did homework I could easily have grades in the 96-97%.
Just a small observation here but in Fallout 3 you are required to have a 30 to your explosives to disarm the bomb. So unless a player goes in thinking DEMOMAN more likely than not they are going to put thier points into useful things like small guns melee and medicine. Infact almost any other skill in the list is far more useful than explosives for a beginner character. So for most who didn't check a walkthru or build the character with this knowledge a few levels are required before you can make the choice. Which in turn gives the player more time to make the choice after getting to know the residents. And lets face it Megaton is not filled with nice ppl. Some are real jerks.
One word; Mentats.squid5580 said:
And you missed my point as well. I'm saying that if I don't do my homework and get a B, I wouldn't be alive to type this.Bulletinmybrain said:You missed the point, with a b in every class that means I have on average a 86%. Without homework which is 10%. If I did homework I could easily have grades in the 96-97%.
Surprisingly, I haven't played enough games with "morality" to notice. And by that I mean I've only played KoTOR.
I just beat BioShock for the second time, so I have the numbers drilled into my head (I apologize if I came off as sounding a bit self satisfying). My point was that the little sister dilemma is more a question of economy than morality.Richard Groovy Pants said:
I'm kind of surprised I'm important enough to merit an invitation. +1 to Ego.
That being said, it was a good read. I thought you could have articulated slightly better what you're actual disagreement was with the current Good/Evil scale of character karma. You touch on that it makes the results obvious and that it doesn't actually inspire any thought besides "I'll pick the Evil/Good choice to be bad-ass/saintly!" but the final impression of the article is more that you object to it because there's no such thing as good or evil. You repeat that concept five times and it's one of the few reoccuring themes in the article. It's true of course but I wish you had hammered in the flaws that a Good/Evil karma bar have on gameplay as throughly as you did the knowledge that there is no good or evil.
Apart from that though, it was very well written. I thought that the article flowed nicely together and read smoothly with the possible exception the "Sensibility and Insensibility" chapter which might have read better as a list or possibly a small paragraph (I'm not a big fan of repeated single line paragraphs unless you're trying to build suspense).
Nice article. With a little polishing you could probably get this on the front page.
[/review]
[comment] I think my biggest annoyance with karma in games is that it doesn't actually affect gameplay. In the end, the plot is pretty linear no matter what you end up doing. If you're evil you kill a couple non-descript NPC's on the way to the end and if you're good you give a couple non-descript NPC's money. Maybe they throw in a few gimmicks; villagers praising you or failing epicly at hurting you (Throwing rocks? Please. What is that, 1/75 of my healthbar?), but in the end the only thing your choices really change are the prolouge.
That's why even though I'm really looking forward to Heavy Water, I doubt I'll find its choice system engaging. The odds of every single action providing it's own result that doesn't invariably lead you to the same location every other choice/result would have are very slim in my mind. You provide the example of breaking into some guys house and being able to search all kinds of places, my main fear is that
A: You end up finding similar stuff in each location (which isn't actually what I'm expecting). Or
B: Fourty-eight out of fifty locations end up giving you filler info you'll never find useful as well as a hint on which of the locations actually advances the plot. (Example: You check the cabinet. "Aparently the killer likes Scotch. What's this? There's some ash on one of the bottles. Maybe the killer hid something in the fireplace ...")
Obviously I'd love to be proven wrong but honestly ... I don't see it happening.
That being said, it was a good read. I thought you could have articulated slightly better what you're actual disagreement was with the current Good/Evil scale of character karma. You touch on that it makes the results obvious and that it doesn't actually inspire any thought besides "I'll pick the Evil/Good choice to be bad-ass/saintly!" but the final impression of the article is more that you object to it because there's no such thing as good or evil. You repeat that concept five times and it's one of the few reoccuring themes in the article. It's true of course but I wish you had hammered in the flaws that a Good/Evil karma bar have on gameplay as throughly as you did the knowledge that there is no good or evil.
Apart from that though, it was very well written. I thought that the article flowed nicely together and read smoothly with the possible exception the "Sensibility and Insensibility" chapter which might have read better as a list or possibly a small paragraph (I'm not a big fan of repeated single line paragraphs unless you're trying to build suspense).
Nice article. With a little polishing you could probably get this on the front page.
[/review]
[comment] I think my biggest annoyance with karma in games is that it doesn't actually affect gameplay. In the end, the plot is pretty linear no matter what you end up doing. If you're evil you kill a couple non-descript NPC's on the way to the end and if you're good you give a couple non-descript NPC's money. Maybe they throw in a few gimmicks; villagers praising you or failing epicly at hurting you (Throwing rocks? Please. What is that, 1/75 of my healthbar?), but in the end the only thing your choices really change are the prolouge.
That's why even though I'm really looking forward to Heavy Water, I doubt I'll find its choice system engaging. The odds of every single action providing it's own result that doesn't invariably lead you to the same location every other choice/result would have are very slim in my mind. You provide the example of breaking into some guys house and being able to search all kinds of places, my main fear is that
A: You end up finding similar stuff in each location (which isn't actually what I'm expecting). Or
B: Fourty-eight out of fifty locations end up giving you filler info you'll never find useful as well as a hint on which of the locations actually advances the plot. (Example: You check the cabinet. "Aparently the killer likes Scotch. What's this? There's some ash on one of the bottles. Maybe the killer hid something in the fireplace ...")
Obviously I'd love to be proven wrong but honestly ... I don't see it happening.
Have you played Fahrenheit by any chance Jumplion? Because its the spiritual predecessor to Hevy Rain.
Now I wish I had a PS3 for HR.
Now I wish I had a PS3 for HR.