Article: Choices in Gaming

Recommended Videos
Nov 28, 2007
10,686
0
0
Very well written article. Though if I may say so, Mass Effect's "karma meter", such as it is, is rather well done too. Nothing on what Heavy Rain might do, but you aren't ever really "good" or "evil". More like "peaceful and careful" or "coldly efficient", with two separate meters for each, allowing for some personal customization without sacrificing the extremes. Hit it dead-on for Fallout 3, though. One of the few problems I have with the game.
 

ZacQuickSilver

New member
Oct 27, 2006
111
0
0
Jumplion said:
ZacQuickSilver said:
The thing is that these games give you a choice. It's just not the one you want. But it is EXACTLY what they offer you:

The choice between good or evil.



The problem, as you have mentioned, is that good and evil are highly subjective. I've messed with that numerous times playing and talking about D&D: "Is slavery evil?" "Is it evil to kill kobolds?" "What about Chromatic Dragons?" "Can I randomly kill demons? As a Paladin?" "Is raising the dead evil? If they give me permission before they die? What if I want to get raised?"

The questions continue.

And frankly, the hardest questions happen when you never have to deal with them again, but you remember them: I still am haunted by a time I ignored a guy skip fare at a local public transit provider because I wanted to get home; but I could have stopped him. It's done, it's over with, but I still regret the decision I made

Which means that they really can't be made in a game, because you can replay a game. You can't replay life (short of reincarnation; and nobody I know of has come back with a full set of memories).
You bring up an interesting point, the whole "you can replay a game" thing. This is what I'm hoping Heavy Rain will overcome. In many games, you have a choice, you choose it and then you regret it. It wasn't the "right" choice that you wanted, so you go back and choose the other one. It's always between a "good" or "evil" choice when that happens and you don't know what to choose. It's similar to a "choose your own adventure book" in some ways.

In Heavy Rain, however, since there is no "right" or "wrong" choice, I'm hoping that this causes the player to want to see what will happen next. There is no "right" choice that will give an outcome that you want since you don't know the outcome fully. Whereas in the previously mentioned "reload level" stuff you at least partially know that you might get something good for doing this or the other thing.
Yes, but you can still redo it. If I regret something in most single-players games, I can redo them. The only game where I have ever cared enough about my choices to spend much time (read: longer than a few seconds except for class/race stuff) thinking about them is the one game I've played that I couldn't take them back: Pardus, the Browser MMO I play.

In every other game I have ever seen, a choice is only as permanent as my last saved game. I've even saved some games just to be able to make both choices; just to see which was more fun. If I play Heavy Rain, I might very well do the same, and thus care the same (not at all) about the choices I make.

And note the exception to the "few seconds thinking" rule: Class and Race. The things that actually make a large difference in the game; and that can't be undone (you have to restart entirely, which takes a while thanks to opening videos usually).


When you can undo any choice you make, are you really making a meaningful choice? I say no.
 

Fightgarr

Concept Artist
Dec 3, 2008
2,913
0
0
Good article Jumps. I've heard that Beyond Good and Evil has choices which are generally in the grey. I haven't played it but thought I'd bring it up. I didn't know about Heavy Rain's in depth choice system, its definitely made me more intrigued into the game.

The one thing I have to say is this, its great to have choices in games, it puts down new paths for people to follow, brings up new challenges, but, do not dismiss the linear storyline. People are too obsessed with their own input into a game, think about if literature did that and all books were choose-your-own-adventure books? I like a lot of linear games where I am playing through the game but I am not determining the plot through choices.
 

mattttherman3

New member
Dec 16, 2008
3,105
0
0
Man that was long, and you did drop one F bomb, but I think you might be reading too much into this, In fallout 3, if you chose the good ending, your character is dead, and if you chose the bad ending, he is alive, so that means that neither of those endings are bad, you die a hero or you LIVE on as a villan. But that heavy rain game looks pretty sweet I must say, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention.
 

Syntax Error

New member
Sep 7, 2008
2,323
0
0
Choice is hard to implement in a game, so developers just gives you the "illusion" of choice. I think the biggest hurdle here is that if you make a bad decision, you can just as easily go back to change it by loading a previous save, unlike dealing with its consequences as you would do in real life.

One way to counter this is, I think, is to have the consequences play out much later in the game, so only the most dedicated will intentionally go back and undo their decisions.

Nice article Jumplion. I wonder how many pages this would take up if it ever gets featured (its a long ass article, as you said).
 

Silver

New member
Jun 17, 2008
1,142
0
0
First off, the reason those games doesn't have that many options is that the more advanced our game engines get, the harder they are to work with. While they sure look nicer, and work smoother, for the user, they are hell to work with. It used to be all it took to get a character in game was a couple of dialogue lines and some code. Now you need a customized, fully animated model, a voice actor, behaviour scripting and god knows what else.

For an action to have consequences it's the same, if not even worse. Giving the player choice and have the world react to everything is going to be hell. Since it's time consuming, and can easily be hidden from players, at least on their first playthrough, many developers skip it.


Anyway, on to the real topic. I disagree with you that it's bad to use good and evil in a game. A game will never truly work, and has to abstract some things, this among it. Being fiction, good and evil do exist in many games. Star wars and the dark side for example, or Sauron and his orcs. They are truly evil.

Even in other games, like Fallout or similar it is a viable abstraction, even if it can of course, be done variously well.

The problem as I see it isn't that you're either evil, or you're good. It's how it is portrayed. In games you aren't evil for a reason. You're evil because you're evil, you're evil to be evil. There's very seldom any real motivation to it.

The same thing goes for if you're good. Being good means giving away money, and doing quests. End of story.


What I think is the solution is not to remove good and evil, or a karma meter, sure, that might be the best for some games, like Heavy rain, but it most games it works. The solution is to have the choices make sense, have them be sensible. You can probably see that giving money to a beggar when you're walking down the road is an act of good, and what is "right" to do. You might still decide to keep the money, you might need it for something yourself, you might think someone else needs it more. In the same instance you can probably tell that some of the things you do irl, is also "evil", or at least some of the things you could decide to do. That might not stop you from commiting those deeds, if you had a reason.

Since in a game the only reason to commit an evil act is often THAT it's evil, the moral dilemma is out. In the second Fallout game you really had an oppurtunity like that. Really early in the game you could become a slaver. Sure, it's not very nice to do, and it carried some severe consequences, but the pay was good. I mean REALLY good. That early in the game, it was heaven. No more struggling to survive every encounter, no more being afraid of what might pop up behind the next corner... You could afford weapons, and armour, and ammo. You could afford medpacs and stim packs. It truly was a tempting offer. Sure, it was evil, but so what?

That's how it should be. You shouldn't have to try, and try real hard, to be evil. Look at KotoR for example, where the only way to be evil, is to not only rob people, and kill people, you have to dig up their corpses and rape them in public. Your companions still won't bat an eyelid though. They might complain that you use the force to do it, but that's it.


I agree though, that a game should not try to teach you a lesson about being good. If anything the journey should be enough, and make your slowly realise how awful you're actually being, or what consequences your actions have. It should be someone scolding you because you acted evil in the game, you should get what you were working for the whole game, you should get it all, and it should bloody hurt.

This worked really well in Neverend according to me, if you were evil, it was mostly because of who you allied with, and how you proceded to do things. You could choose between expelling a demon and making it your slave, for example. You could choose to react in horror when another character was thrown into another dimension, or you could be amazed at the spell used. If you completed the game as an evil character, you got through. You summoned an army of demons, and you became a queen of the whole land. You looked bloody badass doing it too, and while I cackled evily as I watched the cutscene, I still couldn't help but feel for the people in the town my demons massacred. They were pretty nice after all.

That's how it should be done. If there is a morality lesson in the game it should be taught by example, it shouldn't be a lecture. Here I truly agree with you.
 

GenHellspawn

New member
Jan 1, 2008
1,841
0
0
Jumplion said:
...Then I stumbled upon Megaton; the place where the developers were pumping so much action. "Save the town... OR BLOW IT UP!!" was the choice, a very big choice for someone who just stepped out of a Vault. But why would I want to blow up Megaton in the first place? It's got everything I could really need, a few stores, a clinic, and necessities to survive the wasteland. Just randomly, Mr. Burke comes up to you and offers you to blow up the town for whatever reason. The only reasons the game gives you to blow up the town is a few dialogue choices like "This place is the scum of the garbage can", but I had no reason to hate the place in the first place.
I think that your problem with Fallout 3 was the same as mine. The freedom of choice seemed like afterthought, and sometimes it just felt down right forced. In fact, the lack of this choice seemed to actually make me take less time with the game, as I have recently done a full play-through of the game on Very Hard in about 3-4 hours (I really have no idea why I did this, I hate the game, but the point still stands) It felt more like a semi-open world Call of Duty, except less awesome. And without multiplayer.

Also, when you were talking about Heavy Rain, you seem to have forgotten that a system like that was already used in the first two Fallout games. Yes, they had the evil "karma meter" but it mattered less than in the other games and it's importance paled in comparison to actual choices made by the player.
 

Jumplion

New member
Mar 10, 2008
7,873
0
0
mydogisblue said:
Hey Jumplion, have you ever seen Oddworld: Munch's Odysee's Karma System?
Nope, I have not.

fullmetalangel said:
Great article, but I was just wondering, have you ever played Planescape: Torment? If you have, what did you think of their alignment system?
I have not played Planetscape: Torment either >_>

Fightgarr said:
The one thing I have to say is this, its great to have choices in games, it puts down new paths for people to follow, brings up new challenges, but, do not dismiss the linear storyline. People are too obsessed with their own input into a game, think about if literature did that and all books were choose-your-own-adventure books? I like a lot of linear games where I am playing through the game but I am not determining the plot through choices.
Oh, this article is far from putting down linear games ala Final Fantasy and the like. I enjoy those games as much as the next person can, but as I said this article is directed to the games that are claiming to have choice when it always boils down to two or three things.

Syntax Error said:
Nice article Jumplion. I wonder how many pages this would take up if it ever gets featured (its a long ass article, as you said).
It took 7 pages in MSWord, though I highly doubt it would be featured. Would be nice though :D

Codgo said:
Please don't PM to whore attention for the thread. Thank you.
Sorry, but as I said, I wanted to make sure this article wouldn't be swept under the rug. It happened with every other thread I made, so I felt the need to get some attention brought to it. I apologize if I was intrusive to your or something.
 

Combined

New member
Sep 13, 2008
1,625
0
0
Good article, I must say. An interesting read.

Personally, I agree with you on the horrid "Good/Evil" system and support the idea that there is no good or evil and that the only choice the creators give us is what they predetermined to be "Evil", "Good" and/or "Neutral". Which is wrong, because Good, Evil and in-between are subjective.

Also, +1 to you for not using swears to get your point across.
 

LewsTherin

New member
Jun 22, 2008
2,443
0
0
A good article, with well thought out points. The effort you have given it shows. You are correct in saying the current morality system that is popular in this fay and age of gaming is simplistic and generally one-sided on the whole, but you have to understand how incredibly complex and difficult an objectivist morality would be to impose on gaming as a medium of expression. The idea of the flowcharts alone makes my head ache. Perhaps this Heavy Rain will be the first step out of the black/white metre style.

Grammar, Spelling, and Conventions: 9/10
Good overall, with one or two typos.
Arguments: 9/10
The points were well thought out and purveyed, but seemed to repeat themselves a bit.
Content: 10/10
The quality of the writing was superb.

Overall: 9.5/10
 

mark_n_b

New member
Mar 24, 2008
729
0
0
Jumplion, if you do this for fun when you are bored I recommend hitting http://www.gamasutra.com and checking out their submission guidelines and send them a feature proposal or two.

I'm not sure I agree with you on every point you offer, and a little more research is needed, although it all comes from you, these ideas are not without president, find other articles that support your ideas and claims. When you take a position that is wholly different from the game design team (i.e. Bioshock) you need another mechanism of support for your idea so that we (the readers) don't just pass it off as some kid shooting his mouth off. I do agree with your suggestion that there is no moral dilemma really presented in a game environment, Bioshock in particular.

This is if you go the more academic route your article seems to be styled in.

There is new journalism concepts that premise everything on personal involvement and experience in the environment, these need no more research than your participation in the experience. The style of these articles tend to be much more personal than the one you've presented above though.

If you go this route, I would recommend doing something more emotionally driven. It is not a concept you raise your eyebrows over, it is something you feel strongly about (hence using this approach) I would find a game that would press buttons. Either you found the practice of evil a truly amusing undertaking proving that this good and evil concept does not exist (If it were me I would use Prototype as the example of this) or a game in which you were moved by the concepts of good and evil (I would use RUle of Rose, which was a deeply moving game for me).

Your conclusion, title, and guiding theme in this report seem a little disjointed as well. It seems to me you are saying that because concepts of good and evil do not apply to the gaming space, the ideal is options that are not associated with a potentially moral environment. This isn't really about "choices in gaming" because it doesn't really cover the governing mechanism of player choice. And presenting us with an idea that gaming is intrinsically morally ambiguous doesn't get wrapped up by suggesting we should create a mechanism of options premised on moral concepts. If games are free of morality as it stands then isn't every game decision environment, like Heavy Rain, full of decisions that are neither good nor bad?
 

Jumplion

New member
Mar 10, 2008
7,873
0
0
LewsTherin said:
A good article, with well thought out points. The effort you have given it shows. You are correct in saying the current morality system that is popular in this fay and age of gaming is simplistic and generally one-sided on the whole, but you have to understand how incredibly complex and difficult an objectivist morality would be to impose on gaming as a medium of expression. The idea of the flowcharts alone makes my head ache. Perhaps this Heavy Rain will be the first step out of the black/white metre style.
Hey, I never said it would be easy. I understand perfectly that what I am asking is very unlikely, and it will be impossible to give players complete choice over everything in the game, but that doesn't mean that they can't try and give more meaningful decisions.

And yes, I do seem to repeat myself a bit in this. I'll tweak it up if I have the time.

mark_n_b said:
Condensed
I'll definitely consider sending this over to Gamasutra, thank you for the consideration. And thank you for the critique, I will definitely keep these in mind if I ever do write another article/send this to Gamasutra and polish it up a bit.
 

Jobz

New member
May 5, 2008
1,091
0
0
Took me a while to read (I have the attention span of a small rodent) but its a damn good article. I agree with your views on the Good/Evil systems. These games present the world in a Black & White view, and choose to ignore the gray areas simply because its easier that way (Or so it seems to me).

I did want to point out one thing though, in the section about Bio-Shock you said that killing even one Little Sister earned you the bad ending. But I killed the first Little Sister I was given the option to and saved all the rest. I got the good ending.
 

Jumplion

New member
Mar 10, 2008
7,873
0
0
Jobz said:
I did want to point out one thing though, in the section about Bio-Shock you said that killing even one Little Sister earned you the bad ending. But I killed the first Little Sister I was given the option to and saved all the rest. I got the good ending.
Hmmm, well Wikipedia has never lied to me yet....but even without good ole' Wiki I was under the impression that killing one Little Sister would result in the bad ending, so maybe yours was a glitch?
 

Jobz

New member
May 5, 2008
1,091
0
0
Jumplion said:
Jobz said:
I did want to point out one thing though, in the section about Bio-Shock you said that killing even one Little Sister earned you the bad ending. But I killed the first Little Sister I was given the option to and saved all the rest. I got the good ending.
Hmmm, well Wikipedia has never lied to me yet....but even without good ole' Wiki I was under the impression that killing one Little Sister would result in the bad ending, so maybe yours was a glitch?
Quite possible I suppose.
 

Woe Is You

New member
Jul 5, 2008
1,444
0
0
On a more interesting note, this really stark contrast between the choice of being good and/or evil is actually a rather recent phenomenon. If you actually played the original Fallouts, Deus Ex or even Planescape: Torment, your choices throughout the game influence how things play out. And the choices weren't just being a saint or being a psychotic murderer either. Deus Ex lets you approach the game in a multitude of ways; Planescape: Torment has demons and devils that don't even have a consensus whether on whether being truly evil is through being endlessly bureaucratic or being raving lunatics.

Part of the problem, as I see it, comes from the dumbing down of games in general. Older RPGs didn't highlight whether what you were doing was good or evil right from the start. Now they make it painfully obvious. It's kind of hilarious how The Witcher, a Polish game no less, tries to break this: oftentimes you're presented with two equally bad choices and the repercussions of them aren't even seen until much later. The Eastern Bloc and Russia in general seem to be doing the sorts of games us in the west used to do 10-15 years ago. In The Witcher's case, that isn't even a bad thing.
 

Bulletinmybrain

New member
Jun 22, 2008
3,277
0
0
You can kill 1-2 little sisters at most and still get the good ending.


I am really hoping Heavy rain is next-gens gift of choice.