(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Fappy]

-Snip-

At least I am not a....

Ummm....

Oh yeah!

At least I'm not an orphaned British kid who needs to sweep chimneys just to get by!

Spoiler: En garde!

Yeah...

Well...

I get paid a fucking shit tonne for sweeping chimneys, so who's laughing now?

Spoiler: Come at me bro!

Hope you enjoy the lung cancer!

Spoiler: I'm coming bro!

...

Oh god Daystar please don't have lung cancer! That would be so unfair! You promised me you'd build me a house on the homeworld!

I'm beginning to regret bringing that GIF into circulation

In any case, Fappy. Glass houses considering your username is your number one hobby.

It's not a hobby.

It's a way of life.

Spoiler

We might want to stop spamming that GIF too... my browser is having a stroke.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I didn't have any male friends as a kid (and not too many friends, period), so all of my experience with games growing up came from a female perspective. I first played video games through my two female cousins who had an NES, then moved onto computer games, Sega Genesis, etc. I played games with all of my friends for fun, and thought it was a bit weird when somebody DIDN'T own a console of some sort. My parents didn't like me and my sister playing games that much, but it wasn't because we were girls, but because they saw it as a waste of time in general. And I got shit for just about everything possible from the kids at school, but playing games was never one of those things.

I actually had no idea it was considered a "male hobby" until many years later on gaming sites. I also never made any distinction between game genres as being more for males or females, and enjoyed Wolfenstein as much as Mario. The only time I remember caring was when the store clerk at Babbage's sold my mom King's Quest VII for me. I said it looked like a "stupid girly game", but he managed to convince me that it wasn't.

As an adult, I don't find myself catching any shit from other women for enjoying video games, but then again, I work at a game studio and rarely even talk to other women on a regular basis aside from a few friends at work. So my case is probably a bit skewed. My best friend told me that her female coworkers do give her weird looks and chastise her a bit about playing games, since they mostly see it as something their husbands waste their free time with. They're also probably only aware of the existence of the Madden series.

 

[Overusedname]

-Snip-

It's easy to get my mother and I confused, especially when your view is obstructed by a paper bag I forced you to wear on your head.

Yeah...

Well...

You're adopted.

Yeah.

Spoiler: Take that

I approve of this Thread Derail.

 

[Sparrow]

Man, I don't know a single woman that owns a console or PC games. Not calling your statistics false in any way, more just wondering why the hell none of these women gamers are anywhere near me.

 

[MetalMagpie]

I would guess that's because dance (the closest thing I can think of to cheerleading - we don't really see it much in this country) seems to appeal to more girls than it does boys. The ballroom dancing society at my uni was about 5:1 women to men. (A little inconvenient, as it meant the women had to be able to dance both parts!)

Of course, nobody should ever be told that they can't do something (whether that "something" is a hobby, a career or just wearing a dress!) on the basis of their gender (unless they're a man who wants to give birth). But a gender bias alone is not proof that there's a problem.

I just see nothing that looks to be clear evidence that there is something inherently different between men and women that makes one group like, say, cheerleading or dancing more than the other. It seems much more likely to me that the different numbers are evidence of what our culture says should be the case (and that what it says should be the case is slowly changing).
There may be some degree of tangible difference, but if there is it is overshadowed by the much more apparent cultural causes, which are evidenced by the reactions plenty of people still have to things like that, and people's personal experiences.

Is there anything inherently wrong with culture swaying people's preferences in hobbies? The fact my brother's favourite sport is cricket is likely to have a lot to do with the fact we're English, and cricket is a big part of our culture. If he were born in America, no doubt his favourite sport would be baseball.

There's nothing inherently different between men and women that says men shouldn't like wearing dresses. It's just Western culture that says dresses/skirts/bikinis/etc. are worn by women. But getting more men to wear dresses doesn't seem very important, and I'd argue the same is true for cheerleading.

Clearly if a particular man wants to be a cheerleader (or wear a dress) then there's no reason he shouldn't. It would be nice if people could be trusted to be polite about such things and keep their personal views of "but that's girl stuff" to themselves.

I've met a number of male ballet dancers. They agree that being "that boy who does ballet dancing" can attract a bit of teasing at school. But that didn't stop them enjoying it. (And in one case, having a successful career at it.)

 

[theblindedhunter]

Is there anything inherently wrong with culture swaying people's preferences in hobbies? The fact my brother's favourite sport is cricket is likely to have a lot to do with the fact we're English, and cricket is a big part of our culture. If he were born in America, no doubt his favourite sport would be baseball.

There's nothing inherently different between men and women that says men shouldn't like wearing dresses. It's just Western culture that says dresses/skirts/bikinis/etc. are worn by women. But getting more men to wear dresses doesn't seem very important, and I'd argue the same is true for cheerleading.

Clearly if a particular man wants to be a cheerleader (or wear a dress) then there's no reason he shouldn't. It would be nice if people could be trusted to be polite about such things and keep their personal views of "but that's girl stuff" to themselves.

I've met a number of male ballet dancers. They agree that being "that boy who does ballet dancing" can attract a bit of teasing at school. But that didn't stop them enjoying it. (And in one case, having a successful career at it.)

No, nothing wrong with swaying preferences, at least not practically (philosophically it is a whole other conversation), but I take issue with the cases where it stops someone from doing something they would otherwise want to do, or expressing who they really are instead of putting up a façade.
It is great when people can overcome teasing and bullying, but it isn't always the case that someone can, and that is what is bad about it.

So yes, I guess I am wrong to say that that entire part of culture should shift - just the part where we use that to keep people who aren't conforming down.

 

[Tippy]

You don't really have a choice at the moment, it's going to take years for things to change.
So until it does, you have to put on your flame-suits and make your presence felt, like men have made THEIR presence felt for the last 20 years.

Shrug off the empty threats and insults thrown around the multiplayer and the internet (I've done it for years), come out of the shadows, kick some ass in gaming. I'm not talking to YOU specifically, but all female gamers.
(Even though I'm convinced like only ~10 girls browsing these forums and the other ~200 people are male--oh god there I go again)

Anyway, strength in numbers girls

How about no. How about people start opening their mouths. Because if they don't then nothing is ever going to change. If people like you are only listening to the idiots out there (and from all I've read, yeah you are listening to them) then all we will ever reach is stagnation. Ugly, hatefull, sexist and racist stagnation that gaming is in its current form.



You don't need to watch the video (you'll get the basic idea from the title), then look at the comments and the amount of dislikes.

This happens if woman or people who want to change something in gaming open their mouth. And we should sit back and accept it? Why? Because you are annoyed by this topic?

That was a rather eye-opening video, I wasn't aware such a tremendous amount of hostility was shown to women - I tried to watch most of the video (they drag on a bit at times) and I reckon a lot of this has to do with the ratio of males to females more than anything else. This is a rare case where I believe that ratios need to change before attitudes can change.

I'll explain why.

This is not primarily about males oppressing females. That's a tiny part of it. It's primarily about the majority oppressing the minority. Do you know why those people have the nerve to say "shut up *****, get back in the kitchen" and fear no backlash? Because typically that girl is completely alone, maybe with another girl at the most - against a legion of 10-15+ guys. There is no support, no strength. If you seriously think about it, this is what can happen:

Girl1: I'm coming over to help, point B is getting attacked
Guy1: Shut up *****
Guy2: Yeah go back to the kitchen
Girl1: No, shut the fuck up and focus you wanker!
Guy3: WTF why do we have a girl here
Guy4: *silence*
Guy5: Is point A alright guys?
Guy3: Yup it's good
Guy1: Ok get to point C
Girl1: Guys pont B is gett-
Guy1: I said shut up, *****
Guy2: Yeah make me a sandwich
Guy3: Lol hahahaha so true

Do you see what just happened? I won't tell you, I'll just change the situation a bit:

Girl1: I'm coming over to help, point B is getting attacked
Guy1: Shut up *****
Girl2: No you shut up stupid asshat, nobody asked you
Girl1: He's not worth it, just focus
Guy1: *silence* (another girl?)
Guy5: Is point A alright guys?
Girl2: It's good.
Girl3: Looks alright.
Guy1: You stupid bitches need to leave
Girl1: How about you leave, asshole
Girl2: You're not needed, fuck off
Girl3: What an idiot
Guy2: *quickly changes stance* Ok I'm coming to point B
Girl3: Cheers

Obviously I grossly exaggarated the ratio there, but my point is this: as long as girls remain the absolute minority, guys (well no, this specific group of retarded Xbox guys) will feel they have total power over them and fear no backlash when they're abusive over them. 1 girl in every 10 guys is not enough. If it was truly 42% girls, the situation would've been an entirely different story. Suddenly guys would be saying "you know, there's a whole bunch of chicks playing this and they're not half-bad? Maybe stop being mean to them?"

But they're not going to realize that if you just keep yelling at them on your own, all alone.

Strength in numbers.

Also, when such hostility is apparently shown on a "common" basis on Xbox Live, I'm actually getting more convinced that we're not dealing with the "average male" here. That simply can't be right. I'm becoming convinced that what we ARE dealing with here is some specific group of sub-humans who have been confined to a very small view of the world, most likely still holding onto beliefs such as "women shouldn't be allowed to vote", and other things.
Trying to teach that specific group people to respect female gamers would be the equivalent of trying to teach a dog to pilot the space shuttle.

In that video a huge part of the audience was male, and they all sat there laughing. I'm pretty sure a lot of them were embarrassed, hearing stuff about abusive and condensending "men" are to women. The very fact that those guys were even sitting there listening to the presentation probably means few or none of them were part of the problem, the target audience that those females are trying to reach is FAR out of their reach, sitting locked at home in front of their XBox to keep doing what they've always done.

I'll give you a nice example of this:
> On World of Warcraft forums, I keep reading threads along the lines of "I will educate on how to do simple, basic stuff and how not to piss off others in the game!" and "Omg please learn to play the game, stop being so bad!". And then they proceed to go into great detail about how to "be nice to each other" and "use XYZ abilities, stack XYZ stats, think on your shoulders, it's very easy".

All the time failing to realize that their target audience doesn't even VISIT the forums, most likely too stupid to even know that forums exist. It's the ultimate irony that people who are in the most desparate need of being taught certain things are simply too difficult to reach and teach.

I'm not saying you should just sit there and take it. Obviously you shouldn't, it's time for change.

But this isn't something you can fix by talking in a civil manner. Your opposition is not civil. Most "civil" males will never behave in such a manner. You're dealing with foaming, mouth-breathing retards who you will never be able to reach via videos, or forums, or even through feminist movement. That will only make them reject you more.

I will come back to what I originally said: A vastly higher amount of girls need to start participating in multiplayer gaming, a vastly higher amount of girls need to grab that headset and talk. You need to play with your other female friends and join in groups so have a sense of unification and strength. I see no other way.

Being the only girl in a whole army of guys is NOT going to work. Being such a tiny minority is going to see you stomped on. You NEED to move mobilize in numbers, you need to SHOW those mouth-breathing retards that being sexist is going to get them abused and thrashed back by 40% of the gaming population. Right now, that 40% backlash just isn't there. It's not being felt. Girls getting offended and scared of entering gaming, or choosing to keep their headsets off is only making things worse.

It is still your move, it's still up to you to do the work. For now you're just a small group ants trying to break through a brick wall.

Again, for the last time, female gamers need to make their presence felt. Nobody but them believes that they make up 42% of gaming, I sure as hell don't because I just haven't seen any strong evidence of it (other than pie charts, whoop-dee-doo). They keep hiding, the community shuns whatever few of them pop their heads out, even more go into hiding. A tiny bunch of them keep yelling "Oi stop being mean to us!". It's going to take a LONG time to work, if it works at all.

 

[Overusedname]

Being the only girl in a whole army of guys is NOT going to work. Being such a tiny minority is going to see you stomped on. You NEED to move mobilize in numbers, you need to SHOW those mouth-breathing retards that being sexist is going to get them abused and thrashed back by 40% of the gaming population. Right now, that 40% backlash just isn't there. It's not being felt. Girls getting offended and scared of entering gaming, or choosing to keep their headsets off is not helping their situation.

It is still your move, it's still up to you to do the work. Otherwise you're just screaming at a brick wall.

My biggest problem with your arguments thus far is this: Why can't we guys help?

Women are discriminated against, so it's up to them and only them to counter that? What sense does that make?

Black people started to get rights because of the support not JUST from the black community, but also from the white population. Everyone needed to help in the civil rights movement for it to be taken seriously and be heard by everyone. When a white person stands up for Black equality, a racist is more likely to acknowledge that black people should be treated equally and NOT segregated.

I'm a straight guy, but I'm a gay rights activist. Gay people are a minority, and very much discriminated against, and need help to get their issues acknowledged.

Women might be the technical majority, but they've ALWAYS been treated as if they were the minority across the board.

I see no reason why 99% of the gaming community, male or female, shouldn't tell a sexist off whenever they see them. That's how progress is made, and that's how women will feel more welcome.

They've been here for a long time. They ARE welcome. I want them to FEEL welcome.

 

[Tippy]

Being the only girl in a whole army of guys is NOT going to work. Being such a tiny minority is going to see you stomped on. You NEED to move mobilize in numbers, you need to SHOW those mouth-breathing retards that being sexist is going to get them abused and thrashed back by 40% of the gaming population. Right now, that 40% backlash just isn't there. It's not being felt. Girls getting offended and scared of entering gaming, or choosing to keep their headsets off is not helping their situation.

It is still your move, it's still up to you to do the work. Otherwise you're just screaming at a brick wall.

My biggest problem with your arguments thus far is this: Why can't we guys help?

Women are discriminated against, so it's up to them and only them to counter that? What sense does that make?

Black people started to get rights because of the support not JUST from the black community, but also from the white population. Everyone needed to help in the civil rights movement for it to be taken seriously and be heard by everyone. When a white person stands up for Black equality, a racist is more likely to acknowledge that black people should be treated equally and NOT segregated.

I'm a straight guy, but I'm a gay rights activist. Gay people are a minority, and very much discriminated against, and need help to get their issues acknowledged.

Women might be the technical majority, but they've ALWAYS been treated as if they were the minority across the board.

I see no reason why 99% of the gaming community, male or female, shouldn't tell a sexist off whenever they see them. That's how progress is made, and that's how women will feel more welcome.

They've been here for a long time. They ARE welcome. I want them to FEEL welcome.

World of Warcraft sees exactly what you're describing. I can guarantee you right now that if anyone on vent/teamspeak (not a guild vent, just a randomly assembled raid group) even DARES to say "shut up *****, get back to kitchen, etc" they will get absolutely annihilated by everyone else (including me) and most likely insta-kicked from the channel, from the raid, and added to people's ignore lists. WoW is filled with it's share of idiots (10 million players is a huge sample) but I know for sure most of these idiots won't cross the line on sexism without facing a colossal backlash.

That's why I said that we're most likely dealing with a very specific bunch of people, filtered by the kind of game and the platform it is on. I'm not surprised in the slightest that platform/game happens to be a combination of first-person-shooters and XBox live, pretty much the breeding grounds of foaming, mouth-breathing twats. You need numbers to penetrate that kind of place.

But these foaming, mouth-breathing twats are moving in groups. BIG groups. And they're not willing to listen to reason or logic (as we've got plenty of evidence of that), the logic needs to be hammered into them. And even if I, being a nice guy, shout back "you sexist f**k, get off this server and die" it's barely going to put a scratch in some communities (Xbox Live being one of those communities).

I'm willing to do what it takes to help, I won't stay quiet about it if someone is being a sexist in multiplayer. But it's difficult to defend something that barely shows it's face. It's difficult to defend females when they hide. It's difficult to stand up when the situation rarely arises (either because there are 0 females in the group, or they're keeping their mic off / too shy / want to stay anonymous / whatever).

The 42% isn't being felt. Either it's a completely wrong statistic OR it is counting in females who play nothing but iPhone games/browser flash games/puzzles (I know they count as games but you know exactly what I'm talking about i.e. proper console/PC releases) OR they're doing an excellent job of staying under the radar and letting a tiny bunch of feminists do the fighting.

Here's my deal: Girls, show your true numbers regardless of the discrimination, and you're certain to get the help of the nice guys (if you ask for it). Hell we're already trying to help you despite your hiding, imagine what would happen if you came out?

This is the first step to spreading the message across the entire industry, it will adversely make some of the cheap-shot developers think twice before they use females as the "gaze" victim in their games.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Gaming since before I can remember. I must have been about... four?
Started out on the megadrive, never looked back.

It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not).

Even then, I hate how you're expected to "prove" how much you like/know about games, you're expected to "look the part" and live the lifestyle. It's really common to see a guy on the internet go "Girl gamers are just looking for attention" and to get a few responses of "I play this many hours, this many times a week for the past 20 years". Which, of course, is fine but I don't see why so many people expect girls to be totally immersed in the culture in order to be considered gamers or why they're expected to justify themselves.

No one else is expected to do that.

 

[Mouse One]

My biggest problem with your arguments thus far is this: Why can't we guys help?

Women are discriminated against, so it's up to them and only them to counter that? What sense does that make?

I think we have a winner here. And it's a real answer, or the idiots throwing out terms like "White Knight" wouldn't be so sensitive about getting called on the carpet for being idiots.

I get what Tippy is saying about "Well, where ARE these 42%"? Honestly, it's a good question. Maybe they are just playing "casual" games, But I also know my share of adult women who play and just don't like using mics, or engaging in conversation with other gamers. And teenage girls are completely underrepresented in online games-- that's non-controversial (both of my teen nieces game, for example, but they prefer games like "The Sims" or single player action titles)

So why is that? Unless we presume there is some inherent reason guys might like certain games more than gals (possibly true for some titles like CoD), it almost certainly comes down to the culture associated with videogames, particularly online MP. You can say all you like "Well, if girls want to change that, they need to speak up." But c'mon. People play games to relax and have fun, not to spend a few hours every evening engaging in social activism. If game A and game B are fun, but game A requires talking to idiots, guess which one our hypothetical girl gamer will pick?

Like Overused said, if we want a more diverse culture (I do), one that includes not just more women, but more diverse ethnicities and ages, we need to speak up when the BS flies and say "You know what, that's not cool." Oh, it won't change the troll, for sure. But it DOES change the environment from one in which that stuff goes unchallenged to one in which it's clear that the idiots are a (sadly) vocal minority.

 

[Phasmal]

Gaming since before I can remember. I must have been about... four?
Started out on the megadrive, never looked back.

It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not).

Even then, I hate how you're expected to "prove" how much you like/know about games, you're expected to "look the part" and live the lifestyle. It's really common to see a guy on the internet go "Girl gamers are just looking for attention" and to get a few responses of "I play this many hours, this many times a week for the past 20 years". Which, of course, is fine but I don't see why so many people expect girls to be totally immersed in the culture in order to be considered gamers or why they're expected to justify themselves.

No one else is expected to do that.

Oh, the `pop quiz`!
GOD FORBID you not play even ONE of the games they quiz you on, you she-devil!

Thing is, I wish I had more gaming merchandise. I really do. I'm just that kind of person, but I hate the associations that come with being loud-n-proud. For example, I'm a fan of Batman, mostly the films and the games, and I'd love a batman shirt. I don't have one. Because I don't know enough about Batman to answer pop-quizzes.

I enjoy gaming and I love it when I find someone else I know also is a gamer, but I find myself being quiet about it, because I hate accusations of `fakeness` just because I'm a woman.

I really feel sorry for well-meaning, interested female newcomers. People complain ladies don't game, but at the same time do their best to keep people from getting in.

 

[Zoe Castillo]

--

 

[Ryotknife]

Being the only girl in a whole army of guys is NOT going to work. Being such a tiny minority is going to see you stomped on. You NEED to move mobilize in numbers, you need to SHOW those mouth-breathing retards that being sexist is going to get them abused and thrashed back by 40% of the gaming population. Right now, that 40% backlash just isn't there. It's not being felt. Girls getting offended and scared of entering gaming, or choosing to keep their headsets off is not helping their situation.

It is still your move, it's still up to you to do the work. Otherwise you're just screaming at a brick wall.

My biggest problem with your arguments thus far is this: Why can't we guys help?

Women are discriminated against, so it's up to them and only them to counter that? What sense does that make?

Black people started to get rights because of the support not JUST from the black community, but also from the white population. Everyone needed to help in the civil rights movement for it to be taken seriously and be heard by everyone. When a white person stands up for Black equality, a racist is more likely to acknowledge that black people should be treated equally and NOT segregated.

I'm a straight guy, but I'm a gay rights activist. Gay people are a minority, and very much discriminated against, and need help to get their issues acknowledged.

Women might be the technical majority, but they've ALWAYS been treated as if they were the minority across the board.

I see no reason why 99% of the gaming community, male or female, shouldn't tell a sexist off whenever they see them. That's how progress is made, and that's how women will feel more welcome.

They've been here for a long time. They ARE welcome. I want them to FEEL welcome.

If we are talking about the community, not a whole lot men can do except try to take the megaphone away from the sexists. All it takes is one in a group of moderate people to turn the situation into a gender war. Censorship would go a long way. It is common if attacked by a member of group A to treat it as the entire group is attacking you, which in turn causes the entirely of group A to feel that they are unjustly being attacked and counterattack the other group. The cycle continues on and on.

A stupid pointless flame war then erupts, polarizing the opinions of the moderates in the middle and making the situation worse when it could have been avoided by attacking the offending individual.

In terms of the industry, we honest to god need more women in it. They would provide a fresh perspective and a set of new eyes (something the industry desperately needs regardless of how gender is currently done in video games), not to mention vastly increasing the available talent pool. If the amount of women working in the game industry was closer to 50%, games would be more catered to their tastes and therefore be more welcoming to women in general. Perhaps coming up with grants or scholarships to encourage more women into the gaming industry would help.

More women in the industry would solve most of the problems currently facing the gaming industry. About the only thing it wouldnt fix is the AAA budget bloat. But the stagnation, lack of creative writing, gender issues in the game itself, and making the medium more accessible to women could easily be solved by this.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Been gaming since I was 3, but up until I joined the Escapist the only female gamer I knew was my sister, who started playing when we got our first JRPG circa 2004. I can still count the female gamers I know on one hand, and I've never known a single on irl. In fact, irl, I'd constantly get heckled by girls for being a gamer.
Yeah, while I know there are a lot of em, I also know that I haven't had any exposure to them. As such, I'll give no shits about this topic.
As for female gamers being more hardcore: I agree. I can't imagine playing Dragon Age: Origins for 12 hours straight, or finishing the campaign in a day and a half with barely any breaks. My head hurts when I think that my sister's done that at least 5 times.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Perhaps coming up with grants or scholarships to encourage more women into the gaming industry would help.

I can assure you that women have many options available to them (if you look at any site that records scholarship info, you'll see how many of them target women specifically). Grants and scholarships don't produce serious interest; they encourage free rides. Women have to get into the industry because they want to be, not because someone will cover their tuition.

More women in the industry would solve most of the problems currently facing the gaming industry. About the only thing it wouldnt fix is the AAA budget bloat. But the stagnation, lack of creative writing, gender issues in the game itself, and making the medium more accessible to women could easily be solved by this.

I highly doubt that to be honest. I only have to look at Hollywood and the movie industry to see that the influx of women didn't really do much in regards to what people considered problems; hack writing, bad story-lines, terrible characters and shitty movie productions.

The industry is already quite accessible for women who choose to be a part of it (actually even moreso, women almost have a guaranteed employment rate right now according to many professionals I've talked to), the problem is that there aren't enough women interested in it, and there isn't really a good explanation as to why.

While the argument can be made that the community is still male-centric, the community =! the industry. The industry is very welcoming to any woman who wants to perform the work and can perform the work. There are just few who want to, and some that can't.