Ashamed to be part of the gaming community some days (like today).

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ResonanceSD

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defskyoen said:
Another great one from some of those Twitter messages lol :p
What's the significance? Did she compare herself to the other person?


Also seriously? a pHD in Literature and "Myth"? Like that qualifies you for anything, even writing. Everything else on that list is relevant. I have a friend who has a Masters of Literature and creative writing. Know what I do to him? Laugh at him, because he works as a dishwasher.
 

LilithSlave

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I'm utterly shocked, and a bit pleased, with the lack of the term "white knight" in this thread.

So I would like to take this opportunity to say: In before "You're white knighting her and it disgusts me".
 

Axolotl

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Just in case anyone is still interested there's a very interesting dissection of it all Here. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/02/21/bioware-helper-harassment/]
 

JoesshittyOs

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Everyone's already said everything there is to say.

No one is right, this doesn't exactly reflect poorly on gamers, she has a point, they... kind of have a point, so on and so forth.

Her idea to skip combat, in a gaming world where story is often thrown away for in your face combat? Makes sense. And is a dramatic move that should not be taken seriously.
 

ResonanceSD

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JoesshittyOs said:
Everyone's already said everything there is to say.
The reason that I don't like it?

Let's take her one of her most recent works, DA2.


Combat: dull, repetitive, irritating.

Without it however, the entire game is "go here, then here, then sit through dialogue trees, then go somewhere else, then repeat"

That's a "choose your own adventure", not a video game. People criticizing the idea due to the fact they shelled out 60-90 bucks for an interactive experience rather than a horrendously expensive movie or book? That's absolutely fine by me.

Calling her the cancer that's poisoning bioware? Well that's just dumb. And factually incorrect. Everyone knows that it's EA.
 

Kahunaburger

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Axolotl said:
Just in case anyone is still interested there's a very interesting dissection of it all Here. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielnyegriffiths/2012/02/21/bioware-helper-harassment/]
lol Forbes.

They pick this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGJpxwJU_s&feature=player_embedded] as an example of branching narrative?

Commander Shepard, can I recruit you into my terrorist/mad science organization?
[ ] Sure thing!
[ ] I guess so.
[x] Only a little.
 

Kahunaburger

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ResonanceSD said:
That's a "choose your own adventure", not a video game.
Or an adventure game. Tim Schafer used kickstarter to fund one and the internet can't throw money at him fast enough. Of course, Bioware isn't exactly Tim Schafer.

Calling her the cancer that's poisoning bioware? Well that's just dumb. And factually incorrect. Everyone knows that it's EA.
Trufax.
 

ResonanceSD

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Kahunaburger said:
ResonanceSD said:
That's a "choose your own adventure", not a video game.
Or an adventure game. Tim Schafer used kickstarter to fund one and the internet can't throw money at him fast enough. Of course, Bioware isn't exactly Tim Schafer.

Please note: Bioware has never, and probably never will call Dragon Age 2 "an adventure game". It was sold as an RPG.
 

Xangba

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Anthraxus said:
^Agreed. Ppl need to learn how to be a little thicker skinned and emotionally detach themselves when dealing with ppl on the internet.


Good post here someone made about Bioware and their community.



"The game industry teaches people that game developers are all geniuses, and that gaming keeps getting better year after year. There are no problems with this vision as long as people are satisfied with the games being released. But when a game comes out that's less than satisfactory, the cracks start to show. This is why people can so vehemently defend Bioware; they're constantly being told by the gaming media, advertising, and other fans that Bioware has great writing and their games are the best rpgs evar. When a game comes out that is definitely not a good RPG, a portion of the fanbase has this illusion shattered for them and they instantly become bitter trolls who can't stand change or don't understand Bioware's "VISION" in the eyes of the faithful.

Hepler is just the unlucky recipient of this pent up anger. Even those who have recently abandoned Bioware probably still love their earlier games (I can sympathize; I really liked BG1 and BG2 but everything they've done since then has paled in comparison). So they look for a target; a scapegoat they can blame for the decline. And then Hepler makes stupid comments about how she hates gameplay, and how anyone who doesn't love her work is either sexist or homophobic, like she's some kind of writing god and all who criticize her are heretics who should be shunned from society if not burned at the stake. I can understand the anger coming from these people.

The problem with all this anger is that Bioware won't understand where it's coming from and just dismiss it as mass trolling, as if thousands of people have nothing better to do than try to hurt their feelings. Good game developers listen to criticism; they recognize that anger has a purpose, and people are only angry because they care about the game in question. The worst reaction from fans is silence - it means they just don't care. But I digress. The devs at Bioware have surrounded themselves with a cult of faithful sycophants and any criticism is dismissed by dozens of loyal posters. Jokes about ding dong bannu aside, the worst part of that forum isn't the overzealous moderation, it's the echo chamber effect where any voice of dissent is shot down by other posters. It's demoralizing to post legitimate criticism only to be called a troll, or have all your carefully thought out points be called wrong for stupid reasons. Why even bother posting criticism when the reaction is universal? Then the disillusioned forum goer will either slip back into the fold, or flee to /v/, the Codex, or other sites where their opinion won't be so universally rejected. The Bioware forum goers probably think they're perfectly reasonable people, too; they are only sticking up for the best rpg developer evar. Bioware can do no wrong, so anyone who tries to criticize them is either mistaken or just a troll. If you think they've made a mistake, just look at all these posts by people who disagree with you!

So basically, the state of things at Bioware are the result of the game industry's masturbatory self-praise and rejection of any meaningful criticism, and Bioware won't learn anything from this because of how sheltered they've made themselves. As their games continue to decline in quality, their audience will grow smaller and their reputation with gamers will suffer. If Bioware wants to save themselves from being assimilated by EA, they need to hire some better writers, hire some community managers to assess criticism from fans, and generally work on restoring their reputation for good RPGs rather than the action/dating sims they're becoming known for. I doubt that'll happen, though"
Well true and not true. For both sides, the number of legitimate criticism or responses to it are limited. How many times have you seen actual evidence or proper reasoning from either side? The few people with proper defenses for Bioware tend to mention that EA has split the team quite a bit, mixing in their own people, and the proper criticisms tend to point out that the games tend to have a rushed feeling since under EA (among other things of course, though that is a primary one). I hope it's clear from this that while I enjoy Bioware games, by no means do I believe they are godly. Just like with anything that has a fanbase though, it's given a bad name because the most noticeable are the most ignorant and spiteful. That last line applies to the topic as well. Gamers tend to get a bad name because the most vocal are the worst of the bunch. Sad, but true.
 

LilithSlave

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WanderingFool said:
Unfortunately, that only explains the very tiniest portion of things.

If anything at all. In fact, in most situations that such is used as an answer and people "facepalm" and post it like it's an answer to everything, and someone is foolish for giving it any thought, are basically answering "why are people on the internet jerks?" with "(I can't believe I'm dealing with such a question) Because people on the internet are jerks".

Maybe at most, explaining things with anonymity. But if anonymity naturally makes people sadists, that reflects widespread social problems. Problems and motivations that need to be investigated and understood further.

Also, something happening online isn't "no big deal" or "excusable" just because "it's only the internet". The internet is quickly making the television obsolete, if isn't already vastly more popular than the television. And the internet is quickly on it's way to becoming the very culture of the world itself. Furthermore, "just the internet" is no excuse, because obvious things like child porn. If the internet is never "serious business", then there is no reason for us to hunt paedophiles. But well, what happens on the internet DOES matter! People are harmed and helped in gigantic ways every day on the internet.

"Internet, serious business", and "it's only the internet, gtfo or kill yourself if you can't handle it and make a big deal out of nothing. There are people starving in Africa and you're being a whiny assburger over something on the internet. You don't deserve to be here.", and "grow a thicker skin" are just justifications and excuses for morally reprehensible behavior.
 

Kahunaburger

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ResonanceSD said:
Kahunaburger said:
ResonanceSD said:
That's a "choose your own adventure", not a video game.
Or an adventure game. Tim Schafer used kickstarter to fund one and the internet can't throw money at him fast enough. Of course, Bioware isn't exactly Tim Schafer.

Please note: Bioware has never, and probably never will call Dragon Age 2 "an adventure game". It was sold as an RPG.
Haha, Dragon Age 2 would be such a shitty adventure game. But then again, it's also a shitty RPG, so I guess they can't win either way.
 

JackyG

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Great to see Jim Sterling getting stuck in!

God I hate the internet sometimes... it's like a stampede.
 

esperandote

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irishda said:
"These people should be thicker skinned. Bioware needs to learn to take criticism." :Half the posters in this thread

It's quite ironic that the internet should suggest someone learn to take criticism, when everyone on the internet either RAEGS at people for not "getting what I'm trying to do" or just flat out ignores criticism. The internet (as a collective) refuses to take any criticism itself, as evidenced by the "victims" crying about how a company would dare yell at one of its paying customers.

esperandote said:
I can see where they are coming from:

1. You have the option to skip gameplay and read the story, it's called read a fucking book.
2. If you don't like gaming then leave the industry and leave a job spot for someone that likes what the industry does.
3. Saying removing gameplay to leave narrative is like saying you're a song writer and you think songs should remove the music, it stops being a game/song.
3. Not all gamer lacks girlfriends, not all gamers are men, not all gamers want jobs in the gaming industry.
4. She was suprised that the internet trolled her hard after insulting a big hateful group of people, Jennifer I present to you a new concept, the internet, you're welcome.
First of all, she recommended skipping combat, not gameplay. Gameplay is not so narrowly defined as combat. I for one love a detective-style game where people analyze/search for clues without forcing us into weird gun-play sequences (Fuck you L.A. Noire). Broaden your definition of how you can play a game and it invalidates your first three points right there. Second, the internet attacked her hard (trolling implies subtlety) before she insulted them, thus they set the tone. Third, no ones surprised the internet insulted someone. People are surprised that the ones insulting others in the first place would get butthurt when someone insulted them back.

The internet: trying to have its cake, and whining when it eats it too.
It's true, she said combat not gameplay but she also mentioned that she couldn't keep inventory, follow a map and that doesn't have eye-coordination. she could have mentioned any or all of those or other thing that requieres eye-hand coordination (wich is basically all gameplay).

One more thing, what if said fight or other gameplay mechanic affects the story? How would the progress go?
 

GigaHz

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Well, this would explain why I haven't fully enjoyed the vast majority of what Bioware has released over the past few years. It's written by someone with a penchant for writing but a disdain for video games. It's why I've always felt that the story and gameplay for Bioware's franchises were two separate entities, and I could only invest myself in one or the other for whatever reason.

Hiring a writer to work in the gaming industry without a passion for gaming is like hiring an accomplished chef to do French Cuisine when they can't stand eating it. Sure, their skills could make it work, but passion will always take things a step further.
 

ResonanceSD

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GigaHz said:
Well, this would explain why I haven't fully enjoyed the vast majority of what Bioware has released over the past few years. It's written by someone with a penchant for writing but a disdain for video games. It's why I've always felt that the story and gameplay for Bioware's franchises were two separate entities, and I could only invest myself in one or the other for whatever reason.

Hiring a writer to work in the gaming industry without a passion for gaming is like hiring an accomplished chef to do French Cuisine when they can't stand eating it. Sure, their skills could make it work, but passion will always take things a step further.

To be fair, Bioware were famed for the depth and complexity of their plots before EA bought them out. Now they're famed for...well DA2. For the wrong reasons.
 

Lunar Templar

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Still Life said:
From Destructoid:
Poor Hepler did not exactly help her case, publicly stating: "I just figure they're jealous that I get to have both a vagina AND a games industry job, and they can't get either."
*snickers before breaking into full on laughter*

best part of this zigger is how true it more then likely is

excellent burn

other wise, meh, only 2 bioware games i've liked enough to sink any kinda of time into happen to be Dragon Age: origins and ToR.
 

Mrsoupcup

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Well I don't think she deserves the flash mob of people that have been harassing her, her "it's because I'm a woman defense" made me rage to the moon and back.

Yes she is a bad writer, but I'm sure that awful M.y.t.h. comic she wrote caught up to her so I'm doubtful that Bioware will hand her any characters again. No need for people to have a shit fit, but I suppose that this only further proves Reddit is full of idiots.
 

TotalerKrieger

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Good on Helper and Flynn for fighting back a bit, professionalism shouldn't be a factor when you are being so visciously slandered. What a bunch of butthurt misogynist losers...some people are not even worth the oxygen they breathe.
 

Thatrocketeer

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Elamdri said:
Limecake said:
GM shouldn't have trash talked customers.
Screw that, Flynn should get a medal for that post. I applaud him for standing up for a co-worker. The customer is NOT always right, and Bioware doesn't need that guy's business.
If you ever attended business school, that line of thought about the customer NOT being always right is just flat out WRONG. Keep in mind that Bioware is still a legitimate business entity, no matter how bitchy the customers might get, telling your market share to "fuck off" shows poor PR, degrades company image, and shows a great lack of professionalism.

Defending someone is not an excuse to disregard professionalism in handling a matter like this. That guy needs to remember that he's still representing the company with his statements. Instead of giving him a medal, Bioware should show him to the unemployment line instead.