Assassin's Creed: Moral Dissonance

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Unsilenced

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Am I the only one who sees the Assassin's Creed games as becoming creepier and creepier? In the earlier games there was some nod to the idea that you weren't necessarily a perfect "good guy," and the generic enemies running around were clearly alligned with the villians. In all of the AC games with Ezio, you were mainly killing mercenaries of sorts. Then AC III came and you started frolicking about murdering English conscripts. Men who, rather than killing because they were paid to, were only there because they were forced to be, and had no idea they were working for the bad guys. Still, you're the hero! Fuck them for not knowing things they had no possible way of knowing.

And then there's Black Flag. Now, if it were clearly supposed to be "Assassin's Theft Auto: Carribean," I'd get that. Asshole protagonists aren't a new thing. I'm fine playing a character who's morally bankrupt, as long as the game in some way acknowledges that that is the case. Instead, we get to listen to Edward and his comrades monologue about freedom and justice and the American way. Edward himself at least has the decency to be greedy about things, but that doesn't stop the game from trying to make him as charming and likeable as possible at every other turn.

"Oh, you saw a shot of his wife! That means he's the good guy! What? The people he pointlessly slaughters? Oh, no. People who wear uniforms don't have families, silly!"

Let's look at some of the things he does in the game, just as gameplay mechanics. I haven't progressed far in the plot yet, but these are every day in the life of Edward Kenway.

To recruit new pirates, Conner must free men who have been taken prisoner or are being attacked by the authorities. Now, he doesn't ask /why/ this is happening to any of them. In one case there's even an explicit mention that a pirate has killed innocent people, but since it's said by a person in a uniform (clearly satanspawn), we get to ignore it. Now, you generally find these people either about to be hanged, at gunpoint, or fighting with soldiers. To get that kind of attention they probably committed a pretty serious offense. Granted, you are a pirate, so you have to recruit people who are pirates, but you're not exactly screening them. Maybe that one was there because he raped a 10 year old. Maybe he shot his mother. Who knows? Who cares? He's a roguish, lovable freedom fighter now!


And then, of course, there's the piracy. It's cute, really, how they think that putting a uniform on all of the character models will make it O.K, but you're still attacking merchant vessels, and not just by going "hey surrender and we won't hurt you!" like actual pirates did, but by dropping a fucking mortar shell on them before they even know you're hostile. Ships that carry rum and spice aren't manned by a crew consisting entirely of hardened soldiers in fancy, soul-nullifying uniforms. They're civilian. Maybe there's guards if it's an important ship, but often the people manning the cannons would just be ordinary shmos who wanted to live to see their families again.

But fuck em for that. Clearly evil, shell those fuckers to the bottom of the seas. Oh, and also some of them might be slaves/conscripts/shanghied/etc, so you're killing people who were literally forced to be there. But it's ok, it's for FREEDOM! If we brutally kill enough poor people and slaves, we'll really show those kings who's boss!

*single bald eagle tear*

Of course, never mind that Edward's main objective at this point is to sell the world into slavery to the highest bitter. That's just kind of a "quirk" of his, and we love him for it.


Once again, if Edward was clearly supposed to be an asshole, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If the game was meant to be amoral, that'd be fine. I don't have problems with running down hookers as Niko Bellic, because Niko is an asshole in a world where pretty much everyone else is also an asshole. He has a shitty life, befitting his status as an asshole. Black Flag though doesn't seem to be capable of shutting up about how noble and liberated the pirates are. And of course, there's still the thing if you attack domestic animals or "civilians," it's bad. Apparently Edward didn't kill civilians, except for the thousands of times he did.

Remember:
Firebombing 100 civilians and leaving them for dead in the ocean: Good, honest work for FREEDOM!
Shooting a cat: OH MY GOD HOW COULD YOU YOU HORRIBLE FUCKING PERSON!?!??!?!?!?!?


TL;DR: It's annoying when games have you play as the villain, but have absolutely no understanding that that's what they're doing.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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I'm having trouble seeing the moral dissonance of doing piratey things when you're literally playing a pirate. Now I haven't actually played Assassin's Creed Black Flag, or any Assassin's Creed game since Brotherhood so maybe I'm not exactly right to comment on the main character and how he's presented in the story, but as far as I know he's isn't as assassin who is honor bound to observe the assassin code and not kill innocents. He's a pirate who took the cloths and tools of an assassin, and he does what pirates generally did, reek havoc, steal cargo, sink ships, and get paid.

And again, it's not like pirates didn't have the same kind of moral dissonance that is presented in the game. Many pirates were former soldiers/navy men who felt screwed by their government and turned to piracy when they were unable or unwilling to find honest work. They didn't really think much of sinking merchant or government ships or killing those on board to steal cargo because those people were standing between the pirates and feeding themselves and their families so if they didn't have to treat them like people they really didn't want to. Remember, desperate people tend to be assholes. I'm sure they also loved to talk about how free they were and how they hated government tyranny and all that jazz, criminals tend to do that. Hell, listen to some gangster rap, one minute they'll be talking about how great it is getting rich off drug money and killing competing gangsters and "fuck da police" and the next they're talking about how they're the only free people in an oppressed society. Criminals (or wannabe criminals) haven't changed in hundreds of years.

And again, this is an Assassin's Creed game, meaning that you're supposed to be living out the character's memories. Of course the game you're playing is going to present the main character in a positive light considering you're playing through his memories of himself.
 

Casual Shinji

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I will say that it romanticizes the pirate life to a point where it really collides with the realistic setting. There's many references to the big bad Templar authoraties putting the boot to those fun-loving, free spirited pirates ARRrr. Same thing happened in Pirates of the Carribean 3; Oh no, pirates are losing the freedom to pillage, murder, and rape!

Kenway is obviously portrayed as someone with questionable moral values, but his enemies are therefor made even worse so that he doesn't loose his swashbuckling charm. It's kinda cheap.
 

Unsilenced

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Dirty Hipsters said:
I'm having trouble seeing the moral dissonance of doing piratey things when you're literally playing a pirate. Now I haven't actually played Assassin's Creed Black Flag, or any Assassin's Creed game since Brotherhood so maybe I'm not exactly right to comment on the main character and how he's presented in the story, but as far as I know he's isn't as assassin who is honor bound to observe the assassin code and not kill innocents. He's a pirate who took the cloths and tools of an assassin, and he does what pirates generally did, reek havoc, steal cargo, sink ships, and get paid.

And again, it's not like pirates didn't have the same kind of moral dissonance that is presented in the game. Many pirates were former soldiers/navy men who felt screwed by their government and turned to piracy when they were unable or unwilling to find honest work. They didn't really think much of sinking merchant or government ships or killing those on board to steal cargo because those people were standing between the pirates and feeding themselves and their families so if they didn't have to treat them like people they really didn't want to. Remember, desperate people tend to be assholes. I'm sure they also loved to talk about how free they were and how they hated government tyranny and all that jazz, criminals tend to do that. Hell, listen to some gangster rap, one minute they'll be talking about how great it is getting rich off drug money and killing competing gangsters and "fuck da police" and the next they're talking about how they're the only free people in an oppressed society. Criminals (or wannabe criminals) haven't changed in hundreds of years.

And again, this is an Assassin's Creed game, meaning that you're supposed to be living out the character's memories. Of course the game you're playing is going to present the main character in a positive light considering you're playing through his memories of himself.
He actually is pretty much an assassin in all but name. He takes assassin missions even. Also, if you kill a civvie or even a cat, the game scolds/autofails you. Unless it's on the ocean where you're deliberately murdering hundreds of civvies at a time, then it's dandy. It's a game largely about killing civilians as a game mechanic, and it scolds you for killing civilians. It's just... augh.tuohu.tuh tohu.s th

And yes it's likely that the pirates in question are deluded as to the nature of their actions, but the game totally agrees with their delusions. It puts military uniforms on merchant ship sailors so you don't feel bad about killing them, never has the murderers and rapists you recruit murder or rape, and has any named "villian" characters kick puppies about all day so you know that they're bad.

My favorite though might be that there are ships in the dock that you get scolded for blowing up, since they're "civilian," but no ship out on the ocean is ever civilian. The moment they pick up anchor, *poof.* Magic uniforms for everyone!
 

Fireaxe

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Very few bastards ever thought they were evil; people like Hitler and Stalin thought they were right.
 

Unsilenced

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Fireaxe said:
Very few bastards ever thought they were evil; people like Hitler and Stalin thought they were right.
But if a game had you play as Hitler, I doubt it would agree with the character's delusions. Games like Grand Theft Auto are all about how the characters try to justify the shitty things they do, but can't really escape how shitty they are. The things they do catch up to them. GTA protagonist's lives fall apart because of the things they do for their "justified goal." Meanwhile, leading murderers and rapists on a mass killing spree is just jolly good fun in AC:BF, with no negative consequences. It's bloodless violence. Kill 100 men and you never see them, so it's just OK.


Also, if you were playing as Hitler, I doubt the game would scold you for killing a cat, because that's "totally not something an upstanding gent like Hitler would do, yo. Uncool."
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Unsilenced said:
Dirty Hipsters said:
I'm having trouble seeing the moral dissonance of doing piratey things when you're literally playing a pirate. Now I haven't actually played Assassin's Creed Black Flag, or any Assassin's Creed game since Brotherhood so maybe I'm not exactly right to comment on the main character and how he's presented in the story, but as far as I know he's isn't as assassin who is honor bound to observe the assassin code and not kill innocents. He's a pirate who took the cloths and tools of an assassin, and he does what pirates generally did, reek havoc, steal cargo, sink ships, and get paid.

And again, it's not like pirates didn't have the same kind of moral dissonance that is presented in the game. Many pirates were former soldiers/navy men who felt screwed by their government and turned to piracy when they were unable or unwilling to find honest work. They didn't really think much of sinking merchant or government ships or killing those on board to steal cargo because those people were standing between the pirates and feeding themselves and their families so if they didn't have to treat them like people they really didn't want to. Remember, desperate people tend to be assholes. I'm sure they also loved to talk about how free they were and how they hated government tyranny and all that jazz, criminals tend to do that. Hell, listen to some gangster rap, one minute they'll be talking about how great it is getting rich off drug money and killing competing gangsters and "fuck da police" and the next they're talking about how they're the only free people in an oppressed society. Criminals (or wannabe criminals) haven't changed in hundreds of years.

And again, this is an Assassin's Creed game, meaning that you're supposed to be living out the character's memories. Of course the game you're playing is going to present the main character in a positive light considering you're playing through his memories of himself.
He actually is pretty much an assassin in all but name. He takes assassin missions even. Also, if you kill a civvie or even a cat, the game scolds/autofails you. Unless it's on the ocean where you're deliberately murdering hundreds of civvies at a time, then it's dandy. It's a game largely about killing civilians as a game mechanic, and it scolds you for killing civilians. It's just... augh.tuohu.tuh tohu.s th

And yes it's likely that the pirates in question are deluded as to the nature of their actions, but the game totally agrees with their delusions. It puts military uniforms on merchant ship sailors so you don't feel bad about killing them, never has the murderers and rapists you recruit murder or rape, and has any named "villian" characters kick puppies about all day so you know that they're bad.

My favorite though might be that there are ships in the dock that you get scolded for blowing up, since they're "civilian," but no ship out on the ocean is ever civilian. The moment they pick up anchor, *poof.* Magic uniforms for everyone!
Again, I refer you back to the fact that you're not playing the actual events that are happening in the game, you're playing a memory of the event. Memories are usually flawed and skewed, and tend to reflect the person remembering them as a good person, especially if they're thinking of a time in their life fondly. There aren't any civilian ships on the ocean because the main character remembers himself as a swell guy so his mind interprets his memories of blowing up ships in the ocean as him heroically fighting the evil oppressive government that seeks to imprison the wonderful and free pirates, hence all the people on the ships wear soldier uniforms.

That's how I've always viewed the events of the assassin's creed games. Hell in the first game you're outright told that Altair (and assassin's in general) isn't a very good fighter and that he's more adept at fighting one and one than he is at fighting groups of people, which is why you should run away from guards, and why assassin's train in free running. Then in game Altair is the biggest badass in the world, single-handedly fighting off 20 or 30 guards at a time. It's because Altair has a massive ego and remembers events a little differently from how they actually happened. Where he might have fought 3 guys in reality in his memory there is a sea of enemies as far as the eye can see.

Like I said, what do you expect when you're playing the memories of an unrepentant criminal? You see him the way he sees himself, as a good guy doing good things.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Unsilenced said:
He actually is pretty much an assassin in all but name. He takes assassin missions even. Also, if you kill a civvie or even a cat, the game scolds/autofails you. Unless it's on the ocean where you're deliberately murdering hundreds of civvies at a time, then it's dandy. It's a game largely about killing civilians as a game mechanic, and it scolds you for killing civilians. It's just... augh.tuohu.tuh tohu.s th
I just read up about this, and according to the assassin's creed wikia you cannot kill civilians with normal weapons in assassin's creed 4, all you can do is use sleep darts on them and they don't even drown if they fall in water.
 

Unsilenced

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Dirty Hipsters said:
Unsilenced said:
He actually is pretty much an assassin in all but name. He takes assassin missions even. Also, if you kill a civvie or even a cat, the game scolds/autofails you. Unless it's on the ocean where you're deliberately murdering hundreds of civvies at a time, then it's dandy. It's a game largely about killing civilians as a game mechanic, and it scolds you for killing civilians. It's just... augh.tuohu.tuh tohu.s th
I just read up about this, and according to the assassin's creed wikia you cannot kill civilians with normal weapons in assassin's creed 4, all you can do is use sleep darts on them and they don't even drown if they fall in water.
Can't as in won't let you, or can't as in punishes you? Because I can blow up the special, extra-civilian ships that are in port. The game just yells at me because those aren't the right civilians to be blowing up. Haven't tried stabbing anyone with my sword yet, though firing broadsides into town doesn't seem to do much, so maybe shore-side civvies are just immune to damage?
 

Inuprince

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When I saw the thread title I thought to myself, that would be one strange title for the next sequel ...
 

teebeeohh

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Unsilenced said:
Fireaxe said:
Very few bastards ever thought they were evil; people like Hitler and Stalin thought they were right.
But if a game had you play as Hitler, I doubt it would agree with the character's delusions. Games like Grand Theft Auto are all about how the characters try to justify the shitty things they do, but can't really escape how shitty they are. The things they do catch up to them. GTA protagonist's lives fall apart because of the things they do for their "justified goal." Meanwhile, leading murderers and rapists on a mass killing spree is just jolly good fun in AC:BF, with no negative consequences. It's bloodless violence. Kill 100 men and you never see them, so it's just OK.


Also, if you were playing as Hitler, I doubt the game would scold you for killing a cat, because that's "totally not something an upstanding gent like Hitler would do, yo. Uncool."
if you were playing Hitler the game would scold you for hurting animals. Hitler loved animals, one of the first things he did in power was passing animal protection laws. They were some of the strictest of the time and when out murdering people German soldiers were not allowed to hurt peoples pets.
 

Megalodon

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Unsilenced said:
Then AC III came and you started frolicking about murdering English conscripts.
I haven't played AC3. But unless they take even more liberties with history than I thought, the soldier wouldn't be conscripts. The British army first introduced conscription in 1916. Of course many soldiers in that time period were criminals with a choice of army or prison. But they weren't forced into the army.
 

LetalisK

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Yeah, I was constantly reminded throughout the game in many different ways about how much of a greedy, prideful, drunk piece of shit pirate Edward was by the game itself. The only one of his little group of captains that wasn't was the one chiding Edward about his behavior throughout the game. He only starts to change this at the very end when his behavior has pretty much destroyed his life and the lives of those around him. I don't see the issue here.
 

Eldritch Warlord

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Unsilenced said:
Am I the only one who sees the Assassin's Creed games as becoming creepier and creepier? In the earlier games there was some nod to the idea that you weren't necessarily a perfect "good guy," and the generic enemies running around were clearly alligned with the villians. In all of the AC games with Ezio, you were mainly killing mercenaries of sorts. Then AC III came and you started frolicking about murdering English conscripts. Men who, rather than killing because they were paid to, were only there because they were forced to be, and had no idea they were working for the bad guys. Still, you're the hero! Fuck them for not knowing things they had no possible way of knowing.
You know most of the guards you killed as Altaïr or Ezio probably never had or ever would kill anyone and were not in fact clearly aligned with the villains. They were simply employed by the city to prevent crime and they only try to kill you because you go around committing crimes. Guards are no less innocent than soldiers.

I don't know where you're getting this "nod to the idea" that Ezio wasn't morally righteous. As far as I can see AC1 and AC4 are the only games in the series that suggest any moral failing on the part of the Ancestor.

CriticKitten said:
I'm far more annoyed at the poor design of the game's "tailing" missions than its story, anyways. The game seemingly has no idea how close you are to the target, so I can be within 10 meters and still have the "he's getting away" timer ticking away. I just finished playing through a mission in which I had to repeatedly restart because the target magically sneaked away in the 15-or-so odd meters between him and me while I was busy trying not to get detected and also kept getting stuck in combat.
That's working as intended. The countdown starts if the target is not onscreen, it has nothing to do with distance. If you're too far away there is no countdown, just a desynchronization warning.
 

anthony87

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Calling soldiers civilians doesn't make them civilians.

You don't kill civilians, you kill soldiers.....or you let them go freely to get the pirate hunters off your back....or you let them join your fleet.
 

Eldritch Warlord

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CriticKitten said:
And the fact that I had to maintain a close proximity and avoid contact with guards andregularly readjust my position because the game had randomly decided that I'd lost sight of him even when he was right in front of my face....made them by far the worst missions in the game.
You don't need to be that close unless you're eavesdropping (in which case the maximum distance is clearly indicated). It sounds to me like all you're problems stem from being too near the target.