Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism

[Moloch-De]

But again if god was so perfect, planed everything and intended free will for all of us why should he want us to belive in him? Wouldn't that be a flaw in his grant design? The universe as the ultimate pice of Art but with the independent intzeligent creaturs which everything revolving around doing nothing but beliving in the artist is like the mona lisa but with the signature of the artist written with spray paint right across the face.
If God realy was that great he wouldn't have left a trace and left his son out of the ordeal so that nobody would ever belive in anything.

Edit: if i write a computer program i don't include a funktion that tells me that i exist every three seconds.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

Again, just to clarify this is all for the sake of argument. I just wanted to pick holes in Epicurean philosophy. I don't believe in God.

I would also claim that Epicur is a lot more that a single line about a god.

Much more interesting, I think, is some of the stuff Plato wrote. I believe everyone should read some of his dialogues on morality. Though answers are never given, really. But the question of morals is discussed in Eutyphro (I think. I'll have to find the book, and I'll correct it if I'm wrong).
The question is whether morals come from the gods and if they are good because the gods love them or if the gods love them because they are good. Don't be satisfied with this rape of the text. Read it.
The point is that morals are not crhistian and discussion of morals are very old. Are they universal? Are they divine? Are they man made. The way I see it the fact that greeks went on about this stuff almost before Christ even was foretold, kinda makes it hard to accept that morals come from crhistian (or any) religion. And the basic greek morals are not that alien.

That brings me to my next point. No matter where you are and in what time the fundamentals of proper behaviour are the same. Do not steal, do not kill, be nice to your parents etc. They can of course vary in detail, but these fundamentals hold true. And for a very good reason. They make sense. In any society it is in the interest of everybody that people don't kill for the heck of it or steal everything. It makes a crappy society.
I find it hard to accept that every un-cristian society ever has killed and raped and pillaged all day long. Rome had a court system to deal with all kinds of trespasses and it wasn't until late they became christian (and then fell apart ).
Morals are simply a necessity to make things work where more people live together. Most religions pick up on this. Even the vikings, known for... well you know... being vikings, had social taboos and rules of conduct and punishment for stepping out of line.

Oh and:
Edit: if i write a computer program i don't include a funktion that tells me that i exist every three seconds.

That would be an awesome program though. Would do wonders for my self esteem.

 

[hamster mk 4]

I appreciate the OP making the distinction. I was raised Atheist by my parents who saw no value in religion. They never belittled anyone with religion, but rather treated it as another life choice one makes. During my angry high school days I suppose I became what the OP considers Anti Theist, openly stating that anyone who believed in god was obviously delusional and asking to be enslaved by false prophets. However I mellowed out during college and found it easier to make friends and get along in the world if I started calling myself "agnostic" as to avoid the endless theological shouting matches that consumed my high school years.

I suppose at my core I am still an atheist, but I do not flaunt it. Thus I can pass for what ever I need to pass for in order to earn the trust of people whose trust I need to earn. This may seem like a very vague statement but back in high school I thought I could make it on talent alone. Now I know that all the talent in the world will buy you nothing if the right people are not willing to give you the opportunity to demonstrate that talent. It is a lot easier to get these opportunities if the "right people" don't think you are snickering about their religion behind their backs.

 

[Moloch-De]

I find it hard to accept that every un-cristian society ever has killed and raped and pillaged all day long.

Littel correction: they actually did but not each other. The golden hordes and may be the best example. But the universality remains that there is a circle of people to whom the morals apply. It is a modern phenomenon that everyone tryes to fit everybody else in that cirkle of people who you shouldn't kill, rape or steal from but i takes only a small push to bring out all those barbaric roots (oh my god he wears a turban, he is a terrorist)...


Edit: then write the program, it should take even an unexperienced person only a few minnutes and there are thousands of programming forums with nice people ready to help you...lets see how long you will play with it...

 

[teh_gunslinger]

I find it hard to accept that every un-cristian society ever has killed and raped and pillaged all day long.

Littel correction: they actually did but not each other. The golden hordes and may be the best example. But the universality remains that there is a circle of people to whom the morals apply. It is a modern phenomenon that everyone tryes to fit everybody else in that cirkle of people who you shouldn't kill, rape or steal from but i takes only a small push to bring out all those barbaric roots (oh my god he wears a turban, he is a terrorist)...


Edit: then write the program, it should take even an unexperienced person only a few minnutes and there are thousands of programming forums with nice people ready to help you...lets see how long you will play with it...

Yes, of course the morals only apply to people in ones own society. And then often only the men and so forth. The others are barbarians so who cares, eh? I didn't think to make that point as it simply was obvious to me.
My point was just that within a society rules always must exist to make social interaction possible. It should be obvious that religion only exploits that fact and claims credit.

And yes, perhaps I should write that program. It wouldn't take long, even if it's been years since I wrote a line of code last. Debugging should be a treat though . I just never thought to validate my existence through a creation without any free will. I suspect it would become hollow in the end, as it has no choice but to praise me. And so we once again arrive back at the question of gods need for praise and free will. Who would have guessed it. And funnily enough I didn't have to actually write it to realise that it would be fake validation. Wonder what god thinks after so many years of praise from his program?

 

[PaintedDeath]

But I go further than that. If, however unlikely, Gods existence was proven to me I would have to acknowledge that. No problem. But nothing would make me believe in him, by which I mean follow him. I would never relinquish my life to a, to steal a bit from Hitchens, celestial dictator. So I would know he was there, but ignore him. Simply put: I DO NOT want to believe in God, even if he was real.

I am an anti theist, but I don't attack religious people at every turn. (Apart from creationists, dinosaur fools and the like)

And If Science one day proved that there was a raisin bread dragon hiding behind the moon, I would refuse to believe in such a thing, even though it been proven to be true.

mmmmmmmm. Raising bread.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

What makes you think that Earth isn't full of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory already? You kill that many people and you'll go to Hell, even if it's only Spiritual.

I assume i go there anyway for not beliving in god or for having sex before marriage or something like that...

That's After Life...no-one said you couldn't go there During Life.

But i don't belive the manmade hell on earth has anything spiritual about it because in that case i wonder why all the wrong people end up in it

Spiritual can be bad as well...

...The rapist who gets his satisfaction by causng littel children pain is certainly not the victim , that is contrary to the christian belive.

Hrrrm. Overemotional argument, no substantiation and pleading to base beliefs...are you sure you're not Christian?

@ Dante's Divine Comedy: I intended a joke but if i realy had to choose between the company the heaven offers and the ones that can wait in limbo for all ethernity i would go to the limbo crowd. I don't see many people worthwhile go to heaven, classic musik and 19th century litteratur would be a little bit rare in limbo but if we could find some energy source we would be able to manufacture some computers there, after all time is not limited Heaven might be nice but nobody say it isn't boring...

So you don't want to go to Heaven anyway? In that case, why are you so worried?

I've met a lot more atheists who want to prove their non-faith than Christians wanting to prove theirs.

 

[Moloch-De]

@gunslinger: it was to tempting to correct you, i agree with your deduction.

And yes, perhaps I should write that program. It wouldn't take long, even if it's been years since I wrote a line of code last. Debugging should be a treat though . I just never thought to validate my existence through a creation without any free will. I suspect it would become hollow in the end, as it has no choice but to praise me. And so we once again arrive back at the question of gods need for praise and free will. Who would have guessed it.

See it this way: the free will exists for the very short period of compiling; if the program actualy compiles it has chosen to dedicate itself to you because you were its creator and you proved your wisdom and omnipotence by frasing the code right...Many atheist programs will confront you by error messages but thanks to your guidence ther will be a succes. It takes but one true beliving program and that program will stay with you until the end xD

Edit: I am worried because if ther is no afterlife i have only my lifetime to enjoy and while discussing religion with you guys is very enjoyeble, other issues of christianity make my and the life of others worse. Since we only have that one shot at doing what we need to do we still can hae our shot at changing society in a way that doing whats to be done is easier.
What that thing is that we should do is questionable, to procreate in therms of evolution would be an purly atheistic anwering approch, having fun would be something you can't argue with either...

 

[teh_gunslinger]

But I go further than that. If, however unlikely, Gods existence was proven to me I would have to acknowledge that. No problem. But nothing would make me believe in him, by which I mean follow him. I would never relinquish my life to a, to steal a bit from Hitchens, celestial dictator. So I would know he was there, but ignore him. Simply put: I DO NOT want to believe in God, even if he was real.

I am an anti theist, but I don't attack religious people at every turn. (Apart from creationists, dinosaur fools and the like)

And If Science one day proved that there was a raisin bread dragon hiding behind the moon, I would refuse to believe in such a thing, even though it been proven to be true.

mmmmmmmm. Raising bread.

I would not be able to refute the fact. If I would let it change my view of the world is another story. I think it would be quite awesome, really. I mean, a dragon! And made of bread no less.
Again, it seems I used the wrong word when I said believe. I should've said worship. I would not worship god even if he was proved to exist.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Again, it seems I used the wrong word when I said believe. I should've said worship. I would not worship god even if he was proved to exist.

Makes a lot more sense, but then neither did the Light Bringer.

 

[whitelye]

In a perfect world, we could all just live and let live, but sadly, this isn't a perfect world. People tend to want to shove something down your throat thinking that it's what's best.

It reminds me of when a Jehovah's Witness came to my door. Same old spiel, but I was in a pleasant mood that day so I refrained from slamming the door in his face and let him speak his piece. After listening, I explained that I grew up in a polytheistic household and had decided to take the atheistic road with quite a breadth of religious knowledge. While he still had the look of a baffled eight-year-old, I posed the question, "Why do you go door to door trying to proselytize people." After I laymaned up proselytize for him, he responded with, "If you saw somebodies house burning down, with them still inside it, wouldn't you want to go and tell them."

After a stifled chuckle I said, "Thank you," and shut the door. I thought it was a very elegant example of how most people think about the beliefs of others and just helped to reinforce my personal belief that most people are stupid and/or ignorant.

That's unfair. I sound like a anti-theist with that remark, but notice I didn't specify any particular group of people.

I really think it doesn't matter what you believe, so long as you believe it (and keep it to yourself).

 

[teh_gunslinger]

@gunslinger: it was to tempting to correct you, i agree with your deduction.

I always welcome any corrections. I could very well be wrong.

See it this way: the free will exists for the very short period of compiling; if the program actualy compiles it has chosen to dedicate itself to you because you were its creator and you proved your wisdom and omnipotence by frasing the code right...Many atheist programs will confront you by error messages but thanks to your guidence ther will be a succes. It takes but one true beliving program and that program will stay with you until the end xD

That is possibly the most awesome description of religion I have ever heard.
"All praise the Programmer. All you atheists are going straight out of the code when the Great Update comes! So sayeth the Holy Comments."

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

That is possibly the most awesome description of religion I have ever heard.
"All praise the Programmer. All you atheists are going straight out of the code when the Great Update comes! So sayeth the Holy Comments."

Trust The Computer. Keep Your Laser Handy. Happiness is Mandatory?

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I think there is alot of liars in this thread. And I say that because of the "kid gloves" approach you have towards religion. Religion should not be treated with special regard, if you believe something, and especially if you are going to preach it, then it is down to you to prove what you believe is right. I generally stray away from the debate because it seems completely futile. But if pushed for an answer I generally end up offending people with rigid belief structures. I personally think religion is something we should ditch, why put a clear divide between people where there doesn't need to be one? What does seriously annoy me is the lack of respect believers in modern religions have for religions of yester-year. They reduce it to whimsical story telling. I am just saying...Zeus is as likely as any other god.

 

[Moloch-De]

And If Science one day proved that there was a raisin bread dragon hiding behind the moon, I would refuse to believe in such a thing, even though it been proven to be true.

Awsome! i would belive science if they proved his existence. the true awsomeness just starts if we then beginn to do what science does best:
Not just belive blindly but ask questions:
-Why is that dragon living behind the moon? maybbe in fear of being eaten by me...
-How can he survi without air? Can we use that for our astronauts if we feed them lots of raisin bread?
-What came first: the dragon or the raisin bread? Did the inventors of rasin bread used to slaugther babydragons just to get something delicious to eat?
-Why haven't we found the dragon earlier or have we and the great knights were just ashamed that the dragons were made of raisin bread so they invented reptil like dragons to sound more exciting
-What does a raisinbread Dragon eat? If the bread is manly based on Carbon, is there eugh carbon on the moons surface to suply the dragon?
-If there are raisin bread Dragons is there a chance that evolution evolved other dragon species we are not aware of? We should probably design an experiment to probe for fruitcake dragons to verify that theory


Have un with the missing answers and the whol lot of unasked questions...astrobiology is going to be a fast growing science in a matter of days

 

[Aloran]

(hey guys, first post here, be gentle? )
I am probably the Agnostic leaning towards the Atheist point of view with a smidgeon of Anti-theism thrown in for kicks.
I go to a Catholic Secondary School, so I probably have a pretty big insight as to the whole "praise be to ye lord" propaganda that goes on, and I personally don't believe what's being said.
I think that scriptures written over 2000 years ago, and continuously translated and reprinted are not something that people should live their life by.
However, I am open to the possibility that there is a "higher power", but until someone brings me some irrefutible evidence then i'll stick in the middle ground.
However, my views on some people who are theists and anti-theists are pretty different.
I think that the normal people who live their life according to "God's law" are good people, even if a bit weak willed, normally these people are nice.
Even priests are amazing people who, surprisingly, don't spout off about God every 5 seconds.
It's the screaming nutballs that piss me off, I was in town a while ago with some friends, when one of these classic guys came up to us all and went "hey guys, want a free ticket to heaven or hell? repent and be saved! Evolution is a lie for adults!"
He vehemently denied any and all opposition i put against him, which thoroughly annoyed me the whole day.

However! I am not completely going "I hate theists!"
Because I also have a severe dispassion for anti-theists
there's a guy in my class who completely and utterly argues against anything anybody says about God or anything like that, so much so that his argumentativeness has got him into a lot of trouble with people in my school.
Mind you, he argues with anything
just one of those annoying people really
ah well
my (long) 2 cents

 

[DND Judgement]

bring on anti-theism.... richard dawkins ftw!!

 

[Trace2010]

1) Christian...always have been, always will be...
2) There is a higher entity...the universe makes too much sense not to have been created in some way, shape, form or function.
3) Gravity is scientific LAW, not theory (it has been proven and accepted)
4) Science and Art have been Man's attempt to understand the ways of their gods. Though many artists and scientists (starting primarily in the Renaissance Era) were independently funded (not by the church), many scientists and artists WERE funded by the church (Gregor Mendel [genetics] and J.S. Bach come to mind, respectfully)

Hmmm....three possible theories to believe on this:

A) All of the matter in the universe was condensed into a ball on the microscopic level until its own instability caused it to explode. Evolution of galaxies, stars, planets, and the life on them occurred primarily by chance and filtered through natural selection or cataclysm until the human being (with no claws, no real teeth, no natural weapons or means of defense) proclaims itself "King of the Universe". Kinda hard to swallow (gravity may be a law, conservation of energy may be a law, but even if science manages to re-create "Big Bang", that would mean that outside assistance was necessary, wouldn't it?)

B) All of the matter in the universe was condensed into a ball on the microscopic level until some unknown part of the universe (undiscovered as yet by science) caused the universe to explode. Evolution of galaxies...you get the drill. Still means that an external source for BB was necessary, and that that source is still inexplicable.

C) Some cosmic Dude with a clapper decided to say "Let there be light" (and has been guiding the paths of creation of the universe to this day). He shortened the lifespan of mankind to counter balance the ability of mankind to utilize creative imagination. He allows free will and curiosity to fuel mankind's quest to understand the universe around him, yet always gives us enough within the world to keep wondering. He constantly is irritated at the fact that we declare Him bogus simply because mortal humans don't have the capability to conceptualize such a being.

Yet His existence may be PROVEN if science can re-create Big Bang because it would prove that a source outside of the known universe was necessary. So I'll choose (using the God given right of FREE WILL, not as an "Indoctrinated Sheep").........letter C.

 

[whitelye]

I thought limbo was chucked out of Christianity long ago for being one of the positions they realised they absolutely couldn't rationalise away.

As for the religious groups not associating thing. The fear of sex person marrying a sex addict is not an analogous situation. Those are conditions caused by a diagnosable illness in the brain, while belief in a higher power is simply and irrational decision someone makes. While i would love to say religious people are all mentally ill, i wont go that low.

It was actually removed because you could buy the souls of your dead relatives and friends out of Purgatory. This led to corruption in the church so they just up and said, "Never mind. No Purgatory. Just Heaven and Hell." Taking bribes to save souls isn't very holy.

 

[Trace2010]

I thought limbo was chucked out of Christianity long ago for being one of the positions they realised they absolutely couldn't rationalise away.

As for the religious groups not associating thing. The fear of sex person marrying a sex addict is not an analogous situation. Those are conditions caused by a diagnosable illness in the brain, while belief in a higher power is simply and irrational decision someone makes. While i would love to say religious people are all mentally ill, i wont go that low.

It was actually removed because you could buy the souls of your dead relatives and friends out of Purgatory. This led to corruption in the church so they just up and said, "Never mind. No Purgatory. Just Heaven and Hell." Taking bribes to save souls isn't very holy.

I agree...another corruption of God by man.